The Motorsport Thread

[Ambient Sheep]

Hello.  We've had a few specific threads on F1 before (see here, here and here), but I really thought that we should have a generic motorsport thread that can be added to now and then rather than little ad-hoc ones springing up here and there.  So here's some keywords to aid future searching for bumping purposes: Formula One F1 Bernie Ecclestone Max Mosley Michael Schumacher Jenson Button Ferrari McLaren Williams Renault A1GP rally rallying GP Masters GPmasters

So anyway...for those of you who like to follow F1 politics, can you see any connection between these two stories?


Story One: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34643

Williams has cancelled its planned auction of cars and memorabilia on December 13/14 after an un-named private investor bought the lot for a "substantial sum" of money.

Just to explain, this was a VERY large auction of old cars, including the championship-winning cars of both Nigel Mansell and Damon Hill, that has been trumpeted for nearly two months, with auction catalogues distributed to the public and so forth.  Williams was already expected to gain a lot of money out of this.


Story Two: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16002.html

Williams F1 has agreed to sign up for an extension of the Concorde Agreement from 2008-2012. The news will be announced later today. The announcement will, inevitably, be a major blow to the ambitions of the Grand Prix Manufacturers Association...The key point is that there are today only four important F1 brands which the fans and TV companies will follow: Ferrari, Williams, McLaren and Monaco. With Williams agreeing to a new deal, Formula One Management (and its allies at the FIA and Ferrari) will gain a dominant position and while the car manufacturers are a powerful lobby, this really torpedoes any chance that a rival series will get off the ground in 2008.
::
::
The important question is why Williams has decided to sign up and our sources indicate that the most key issue for the management at Grove was that the latest offer from FOM is very reasonable; that the FIA has shown signs of being willing to compromise and that continued talk of a second series is deeply disruptive. Our sources say that the deal offered to Williams is not going to be any different to that on offer for other teams - or, to put it another way, Williams has not been bribed with a big pay-off.

Now call me stupid, but I can't see a connection between those two, can you?  ;-)

[Jaffa The Cake]

A bit off topic, but...



Urgh.

[Ambient Sheep]

Not offtopic in the slightest...that's the whole point of this thread, that anything motorsport-related can be posted, rather than concentrating on specific events.

And yes, I agree.  Urgh.

[monkeyfart]

I'm long fed up with F1.

I've been following this new start up - certainly worked for tennis, golf, etc and they've got some great names signed up.

http://www.gpmasters.com/

[Suttonpubcrawl]

(picture)

Urgh.

What's wrong with my car then?

[Ambient Sheep]

I'm long fed up with F1.

I've been following this new start up - certainly worked for tennis, golf, etc and they've got some great names signed up.

http://www.gpmasters.com/

Yes.  The first race was pretty good, and if they DO do a whole series next year (as looks likely) it should be most entertaining.  I'll add it to the keyword list.

Of course, loving my conspiracy theories as I do, I'm more-or-less convinced it was launched as a spoiler against A1GP.  :-)

[monkeyfart]

Of course, loving my conspiracy theories as I do, I'm more-or-less convinced it was launched as a spoiler against A1GP.  :-)

Yeah it does look that way but I know first hand it's not.

A1 was a simple poke in the eye for Bernie - the name, the cars, etc. Just bad timing (for both A1 and GPM) that they both dreamt up similar ideas to launch new series within a short period of time.

[RFT]

With regard to sheepy's orginal post...

I'm not sure I do see a connection, to be honest.
It was always fairly odds-on that frank was going to sign up with bernie once released from the BMW deal as the GPWC crowd is very much a manufacturers' thing and possibly not in the best interest of independent teams. I would certainly think that, after last year, frank isn't in favour of giving more power in the sport to the big factories.

I don't really see how the sale would have affected it one way or the other, TBH.

[Ambient Sheep]

Of course, loving my conspiracy theories as I do, I'm more-or-less convinced it was launched as a spoiler against A1GP.  :-)

Yeah it does look that way but I know first hand it's not.

First-hand?  Ooooh!!

A1 was a simple poke in the eye for Bernie - the name, the cars, etc.

Exactly.  And I can imagine that that didn't go down too well...look at Ron Walker - a good mate of Mr E's - attempts to stop the Australian round on the very spurious grounds that "Grand Prix" was a trademark.

Just bad timing (for both A1 and GPM) that they both dreamt up similar ideas to launch new series within a short period of time.

Hmmm.  A1GP has been in the planning since March 2004 with the cars going into production about a year ago.  But GPM was only announced at the end of Feb this year, and didn't really get going until the middle of this year, after it became clear that A1 wasn't just another "F1 Team Dubai"-style pipedream, but was actually going to happen.  And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it being run by an old mate of B*rnie's too?

The biggest shame is that according to insider info that I've read myself, the BBC were going to show highlights of A1GP, until GPM came along.  Very useful result for a certain extremely rich gentleman (as well as ITV).  I suppose I have to respect your claim of insider knowledge, but from where I'm sitting you have to admit - as indeed you have :-) - that it all looks well dodgy.

[Ambient Sheep]

It was always fairly odds-on that frank was going to sign up with bernie once released from the BMW deal as the GPWC crowd is very much a manufacturers' thing and possibly not in the best interest of independent teams.

Well yessss, and no.  I agree that this has been on the cards for a while, but on the other hand don't forget that Frank (along with Ron Dennis and Ken Tyrrell) were the major holdouts against signing THIS Concorde Agreement back in 1997.

The thing is though, Frank knew he had the key to which way this split was going to go, and is known to have been angling for a lot more money to cast what effectively is his deciding vote in B*rnie's direction.

I would certainly think that, after last year, frank isn't in favour of giving more power in the sport to the big factories.

No, I'm sure he enjoyed the thought of Mario Theissen choking on his continental breakfast when he heard the news.  As was pointed out in that article (only without naming corporate names), Honda & Toyota are up for compromise, Renault probably aren't even going to BE around in 2008 at this rate, which only leaves McLaren-Mercedes & BMW as the two hold-outs.

I don't really see how the sale would have affected it one way or the other, TBH.

Well...given that "the deal offered to Williams is not going to be any different to that on offer for other teams", and that Frank was angling for more money before he'd sign up, then it rather depends upon just who this "un-named private investor" was, doesn't it?  The one who "bought the lot for a 'substantial sum' of money", substantial enough, in fact, to cancel a public auction that had been at least two months in the planning.

[TOCMFIC]

This is spooky. Less than 12 hours ago I thought "I should start a racing thread given how popular my wrestling one is..." And here it is

Been an F1 fan for 20 years, but am a complete racing junkie. My favourite series currently is Australian V8 Supercar. This years Bathurst 1000 was probably the best race I've ever seen, in ANY series. Action for the entire six hours!

In F1, I've always liked Williams. Which means next year is gonna hurt. I don't care what proclaimations Cosworth have made about "knowing V8". This isn't the 1970's. They're gonna get owned. Hard. I don't like Mark Webber, I think he's an arrogant dick who exemplifies the worst characteristics of the Michael Schumacher school of driving, but I'm keen to see how Rosberg does against him, and I will always support the Williams team, even when I can't stomach the drivers.

As some of you know, I used to run a website devoted to F1. In that time, I did make a few contacts. Most notably someone very close to Jenson Button. It's funny how, two years ago, I learnt what he is like, and his contract shenanigans, his attitude etc... Have all backed up what I was told. The guy is an asshole of the highest order.

So, to veer off a little, does anyone here play race sims? I'm into Grand Prix Legends and Nascar Racing 2003.  

Do any of you follow any other series? Since this is a MOTORSPORT thread, not F1:)

[Almost Yearly]

Oh go on, just one little one and then I'll begone forever, how much can it possibly hurt? I mean, yes, it is meant disparagingly, because, well ... well I suppose rallying's quite good to watch. Selected highlights of. Just one little one then.




Wyyyyyeeeeeooooooowwwwwwwww.

[Ambient Sheep]

Wyyyyyeeeeeooooooowwwwwwwww.

Hehe, when I saw your name as the last posting on this thread, I just KNEW what was coming.  Well there you go, you've done it, and be off with you!  :-)

As some of you know, I used to run a website devoted to F1. In that time, I did make a few contacts. Most notably someone very close to Jenson Button. It's funny how, two years ago, I learnt what he is like, and his contract shenanigans, his attitude etc... Have all backed up what I was told. The guy is an asshole of the highest order.

Wouldn't surprise me.  Although from what I've heard (which is almost certainly less accurate than you), it's simply that he's far from being the sharpest tool in the box...however given his apparent skill at reading races and knowing when and when NOT to push, that seems hard to believe.  Ah...unless he just has a good race engineer whom he knows to listen to.

So, to veer off a little, does anyone here play race sims? I'm into Grand Prix Legends and Nascar Racing 2003.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not another gaming thread!!!!

Do any of you follow any other series? Since this is a MOTORSPORT thread, not F1:)

Only A1GP, and I'll probably follow GPM as well.  I used to follow Champ Car a bit a few years ago (last year or two when it was called CART) before it (a) semi-imploded, (b) became increasingly difficult to find on Eurosport, (c) got myself a new highly-motorsport-indifferent girlfriend.

I did nearly call this "The Formula One Thread" but I thought that since I myself intend nattering about A1GP as well, that'd be a bit restrictive...and "The Formula One (and other Motorsport) Thread" just looked crap.

[TOCMFIC]

A1GP is arse. I hate it. I think my biggest issue is "England overtakes France". It just seems dumb, and I picture entire landmasses passing each other. I just can't get into it. The racing isn't very good.

Jenson: He used to be a good guy, but then when he was in Formula 3 he started getting an entourage. Basically, to coin an old phrase, he became "lost in showbiz". He's a jerk basically.

Currently watching the official FIA 2005 season review. Notice how Paul Stoddart and Minardi are COMPLETELY ignored. No mention of the problems in Australia, and no mention of Stoddart in regards to Indy... Unsurprising.

Watching for the Malaysian highlights is funny. BAR deliberately retired their cars at the end of the Australian GP to exploit the one engine/two race rule, so they could put new engines in the cars for Malaysia. Well, the karma fairy took time off from frowning at Schumacher and frowned on BAR... Both cars had their brand new engines expire less than 3 laps into the race. Karma's a bitch!

I'll occasionally watch an IRL or Champcar race. I actually watch NASCAR more. I always love to watch the Watkins Glen NASCAR event. It's great to see these oval racers hopelessly out of their depth. I'm a big Tony Stewart  fan, and to see him own everyone, including the "road course" ringers some teams bring in to sub for their talentless fucking drivers is priceless.

I also love sportscar racing. Love following Le Mans every year. Follow ALMS when I can. Currently downloading a bunch of 2005 season reviews for various series.

What can I say, I love racing...

As for gaming... I only asked if anyone here plays race sims, with a view to hooking up for some ontrack action:)

[Ambient Sheep]

A1GP is arse. I hate it. I think my biggest issue is "England overtakes France". It just seems dumb, and I picture entire landmasses passing each other. I just can't get into it. The racing isn't very good.

Did you see the Malaysian round?  I agree that the Jerez and Oz rounds were pretty dull, but Malaysia was superb.  I think the Ben Edwards commentary helps too, brings back fond memories of F1 on Eurosport days.

And yes, BAR's engine karma WAS pretty funny.... :-)

I don't mind the odd bit of gaming chat, as long as it doesn't take over the whole thread...but then threads aren't tended to be "owned" round here anyway, so who am I to dictate?  :-)

[TOCMFIC]

Ben Edwards. THANK YOU! I was watching the FIA review, and for the life of me could not remember his bloody surname. (He comments on that.) For my money, Ben is the best racing commentator around. I fucking hate that cunt Allen on ITV's F1. I mean really, they could kill everyone but Brundle and Blundell on the ITV coverage, have Mark in the studio, Martin at the track. Perfect in my book.

I skipped A1GP after the 2nd round. I can watch it over the net as A1 stream it if you're in a country with no broadcaster (like I am.) I just can't get into it. Has it really improved? I mean it was amateur hour for a while, and just not that exciting. It has to match up to my beloved Aussie V8's:) If you've never seen any, you should really try and catch some. There's the occasional dud race (Surfers Paradise this year was dull), but more often than not it's amazing. Replaces early 90's BTCC in my affection as the best racing I've seen.

Gaming: I notice you've not actually answered my question yet:) Do you or don't you? I've got a wheel and pedals. I'm hardcore:)

[monkeyfart]

First-hand?  Ooooh!!

he he - didnt mean that to come across the way it might have.

Exactly.  And I can imagine that that didn't go down too well...look at Ron Walker - a good mate of Mr E's - attempts to stop the Australian round on the very spurious grounds that "Grand Prix" was a trademark.

quite.

Hmmm.  A1GP has been in the planning since March 2004 with the cars going into production about a year ago.  But GPM was only announced at the end of Feb this year, and didn't really get going until the middle of this year, after it became clear that A1 wasn't just another "F1 Team Dubai"-style pipedream, but was actually going to happen.  And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it being run by an old mate of B*rnie's too?

It was only announced then but there was a lot of work in the background before that. The idea had to be floated round all the drivers first to see if their wives would let them come out and play ;o)

The clear difference between the two is that A1 is backed by what would appear an endless amount of hard cash and GPM is more about the idea of historic 'type' racing attracting media interest. Both projects in fairness are not that easy or cheap to initially plan let alone run.

The biggest shame is that according to insider info that I've read myself, the BBC were going to show highlights of A1GP, until GPM came along.  Very useful result for a certain extremely rich gentleman (as well as ITV).  I suppose I have to respect your claim of insider knowledge, but from where I'm sitting you have to admit - as indeed you have :-) - that it all looks well dodgy.

I was in South Africa for the race and each and every driver just couldnt have been more excited. I'm sure that will change with time as they get back into their old routine but it really has given them a new lease of life. A1 doesnt have the 'charm' or 'characters' of racing that has been lacking for quite some time. If you watched the race I'm sure you will agree they were actually 'driving' the cars - there was understeer, oversteer etc and it made me realise I just hadnt seen that in F1 for a while . With time (and here's where the hard cash comes in handy) A1 will create a similar atmosphere but at the same time, in my opinion, we might just end up with a load of A1 drivers who think they can do better and move to F1.

Perhaps A1 would have been better if they made it women only? God knows motorsport in general is lacking some pretty faces.

[RFT]

Gaming: I notice you've not actually answered my question yet:) Do you or don't you? I've got a wheel and pedals. I'm hardcore:)

I've spent quite a lot of time with GPL and N2003, though more recently I've been racing with Live For Speed and an F1 Challenge mod called "Prototype-C".

[Ambient Sheep]

Ben Edwards. THANK YOU! I was watching the FIA review, and for the life of me could not remember his bloody surname. (He comments on that.) For my money, Ben is the best racing commentator around. I fucking hate that cunt Allen on ITV's F1.

So does everyone.  I take it you've probably seen http://www.sniffpetrol.com/issue060.html ?  Or http://www.sniffpetrol.com/issue067.html ?  Or indeed every issue in-between?  :-)   (You need to scroll to near the bottom to see what I mean.)

I mean really, they could kill everyone but Brundle and Blundell on the ITV coverage, have Mark in the studio, Martin at the track. Perfect in my book.

Um, not convinced about Mark "like wot he gone and done next" Blundell.  Not a fan, although I'd probably prefer him to Tony Jardine.  I take it you know that Jim Rosenthal - just when he'd finally managed to get half a clue - has now done his last season; we get Steve Ryder (at last!) over from the BBC next year.

In fact do you get any of the ITV pre-race show over there?  I just assumed that you got the James & Martin commentary from the start of Bernie's logo.  (And if that IS all you get, please answer me a question I've always wondered...do you hear Jim handing over to them, or is the first thing you hear is the Cock going "Thank you Jim".  I remember Murray saying that he was known in non-English-speaking parts of the world as "ThankyouJim" because they assumed that was him announcing his name.)

I'd keep Louise Goodman - nobody is better at getting a quote from a pissed-off racing driver that can't punch a lady out of the way, and although I used to hate Ted Kravitz, I suppose he's passable these days.

I skipped A1GP after the 2nd round.

I can understand that, that Lausitzring round was pretty boring, the odd crash aside; and even Brands Hatch was more interesting as an event and to see the old race track, than as actual racing.  Jerez was fucking boring (looked so tiny, can't believe it was still holding F1 races as recently as 1997), and Australia would have been boring had it not been rather terrifying cos really the track wasn't up to scratch for the power of the cars.

However the Malaysian round was superb.  Wheel-to-wheel racing halfway round that much maligned Tilke-designed track...after all something designed to let even F1 cars overtake is bound to give good results with A1GP.  If we have a few more like that then it will very much be worth watching.  This weekend is a Dubai street circuit, which could be interesting to say the least.

I agree about the "amateur hour" business but I'm afraid that to me that partly added to the entertainment, I actually did sit there yelling "Amateurs!  Amateurs!!" at the telly during one particularly inept pitstop at the Lausitzring.

In conclusion: I wouldn't write it off completely yet.

It has to match up to my beloved Aussie V8's:) If you've never seen any, you should really try and catch some.

I don't know if we get any coverage over here, but I know it's got a good reputation.

Gaming: I notice you've not actually answered my question yet:) Do you or don't you? I've got a wheel and pedals. I'm hardcore:)

Sorry, didn't even realise that was aimed at me until now.  :-)

No, I don't that much.  Don't get the time.  When someone at work a few years ago was selling an old Playstation 1 complete with some racing games and a wheel and pedals, I bought them cheap, and had a few days fun, then put it away and never got back to it.  Not that I didn't enjoy, but other things took priority.

I still remember playing the sit-down Pole Position (Pole Position II for preference) in the arcades back in the 80s though, when I couldn't find my usual Defender, Gorf, Tempest or Star Wars to play on...and that was even before I got into F1 in the first place...

[TOCMFIC]

Pole Position ROCKED! Love that game.

You do get Aussie V8's in England, on Motors I believe. For the Bathurst 1000, the UK was the only place to get coverage of the Sunday morning warmup! (Not even Australia gets that.)

I know Sniff Petrol very well. Great site:)

Steve Ryder? Not so bad. I mean he used to do the links on BBC2, so at least he knows something.

A1: Will maybe give the next round a go. At least I can stream that over the net.

Okay, F1 coverage: Off the top of my head, I know Australia, South Africa and Canada get the Uk commentary. What happens, in Canada at least, is we get our OWN crappy pre-race show. (So awful that back when I had cable and taped what for me were early morning races, I'd set the timer for 5 minutes to race time to remove the pre-race show, it's that awful), then some time from 2 minutes to race time to halfway around the warm up lap, it'll cut over to ITV's commentary. Then at race end, it'll immediately cut back to the Canadian morons.

To give you an idea of how bad it is, the Canadian GP a couple of years ago, the one Montoya won, he crossed the line to take the win, and immediately, and I mean before second place had crossed the line, cut in and said "So Montoya wins... Villeneuve finishes 11th" and went to commercial!!! This was before the race was even finished.

What with that, and qualifying for the FUCKING CANADIAN GRAND PRIX quite often tape delayed by six hours so they can show fucking golf... They really do treat F1 like crap here. So I now watch it in French (no choice, dumped cable. The one French station we get airs F1. Albeit on tape delay.) And I download qualifying off the net, or watch it over one of the P2P streaming TV services from Asia.

This past season, off the top of my head, I have watched F1 in:

English
French
Dutch
Mandarin
Whatever they speak in Singapore

Quite the eclectic mix:)

[TOCMFIC]

See Midland have blocked Super Aguri aka Honda "B" team from entering F1 next year? Fuckers. Used to love Jordan, but then Eddie dumped Frentzen, which was an asshole thing to do, then they just went down and down, and now we've got these Russian fucks... Already made my shitlist.

[RFT]

Audi have unveiled the 2006 Le Mans Winner (you'd have to bet on it) , the R10
link to Mulsanne's corner.

Looks very reminiscent of the R8, but it's a diesel.

[TOCMFIC]

Diesel? I know you can get very sporty and quick diesel cars, but I just can't help imagining the Audi giving a good indication of what a Scania truck would sound like doing 200mph down the Mulsanne Straight:)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Could McLaren reserve driver and F1 bit-part racer Alex Wurz be Nathan Barley?

Probably explains how he's been keeping himself busy, with so much spare time on his hands.

[Jaffa The Cake]

It's not confirmed that Midland are blocking supergooey, but Williams have said they haven't said yes yet.

I could understand why Midland would say no. Only the top 10 teams get a share of the TV revenue.

[Ambient Sheep]

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet, Fernando Alonso has signed for McLaren in 2007 onwards!  Possibly to replace Raikkonen?  At first this is quite surprising, but I suppose that we can't blame Alonso really, given that Renault will probably be pissing off out of F1 at the end of that year (the remaining team possibly to be taken over by David Richards? - see here and here).

This article makes an amusing point...that surely Briatore, as Alonso's manager, must have known that talks with McLaren were going on; which puts him in a strange position considering his other hat as Chief Executive of the Renault F1 team!

Martin Brundle has some interesting thoughts here.

Meanwhile, re. Super Aguri, it seems that Midland F1 have been persuaded to let them in.

[TOCMFIC]

What about Williams though? Since Franky and Patrick were worried about their long term commitment.

As for Alonso... Bit of a surprise to wake up to that this morning. More disappointed at the news that Kimi is likely going to the scarlet menace:(

[Ambient Sheep]

What about Williams though?

One assumes that Bernie found some more old cars of theirs to buy at a vastly-inflated price.  :-D

Since Franky and Patrick were worried about their long term commitment.

Wasn't that just bollocks though?  Most people assume that WIlliams' vaccillation was down to the fact that they'll probably be using Toyota engines in 2007 and of course Toyota would love to scupper Honda's plans for a B-team.

[TOCMFIC]

The way I saw it, given how screwed Williams are next year, they didn't want Supergooey (I like that:)) in because it would probably be direct competition. I mean lets face it, Williams are fucked. They're essentially a privateer team again.

[Ambient Sheep]

Only seen this story in just the one place, so thought it worth posting here:

Ecclestone told Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport that he disapproved of Dennis' behaviour in "bypassing" Alonso's manager – and Renault team principal – Flavio Briatore, suggesting he was motivated by a personal grudge.
::
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"I know what happened, but I can't tell the details.  Flavio was left out of the game and, shall we say, deceived.

"On top of that, with Dennis being Briatore's bitter enemy, he exposed things publicly in order to make it difficult for him.  It wasn't nice, even though poaching drivers is normal.

"Dennis and Briatore could have written a joint press release and they would have both looked much better.  Dennis' move hasn't been intelligent."

Strong words, and one wonders what the exact motive behind them is.