Where did The Simpsons go wrong?

[Leo2112]

Channel 4 is currently broadcasting the terrestrial premiere of Season 15.  Despite the crippling disappointments I've come to expect with later Simpsons, I was not expecting the depths to which it has sunk (this is the Season which includes the celebrity-heavy episode set in London).  It is as if the writers have by this stage completely given up, responding to criticism not by crafting better episodes but dragging it down even further beyond redemption in an almost self-destructive way.  The characters have been twisted out of almost all recognition.  Homer Simpson has been molded into a crass, pop-culture spewing mess leaving little left of his endearing childlike innocence.  It must really rank as one of the biggest falls from grace for a TV sitcom - my frustration is borne from my attatchment to the classic years, it's like watching a favourite relative steadily deteriorating.

So where is the 'shark-jumping' moment if there is one?  Was this decline sparked by the change in writers and showrunner around Season 9/10, or was there nowhere left for the show to go post-Season 9?  The quality of Malcolm in the Middle plots show that grounded, family-based stories can work superbly with decent writing without having to resort to the fantastical elements which blighted later Simpsons.  Discussing it will make my pain easier.

[Danger Man]

So...you are saying that The Simpsons lost its way somewhere between the 250th and 300th episode?

I'd say that was quite a good run, all things considered.

[Father O`Blivion]

I'd say that was quite a good run, all things considered.

Season 20 is due to start in a couple of weeks so they're still very much running.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the writing team has been changed again so maybe there will be some improvement in this season.

For the last several seasons there's generally been one good Homer line per episode and that's about it.

[Old Thrashbarg]

This episode is generally considered the point at which The Simpsons started it's decline. The rest of season 9 and even season 10 contained some great episodes, but they also contained some with even more outlandish stories and characters acting inconsistently. And the this episode in season 11 killed it off for good as far as I'm concerned. Killing off a fairly minor character for no apparent reason was stupid, but having Homer be so insensitive after causing the death was even worse. The character that had been built up over 10 years wouldn't have done that and it showed, for me, that the staff had completely lost touch with the characters and were willing to have them act however they wanted with no consistency. Any lingering doubt was dispelled weeks later when Barney, a great and funny drunken character, became a sober helicopter pilot.

I still watched a couple more seasons, seeing most episodes until some way into the 14th season. I then just gave it up as a bad job and haven't seen any full episodes since. Any brief bits I've seen have been too depressing to continue watching. Such a shame that a show of such quality could descend so far so quickly.

[Vitalstatistix]

This article is essential to the understanding of the decline of this once great show.

http://www.offthetelly.co.uk/comedy/simpsons/decade.htm

[Leo2112]

So...you are saying that The Simpsons lost its way somewhere between the 250th and 300th episode?

I'd say that was quite a good run, all things considered.

Absolutely, it's an incredible run of quality episodes.  I guess Groening's attitude also agitates me, the continued insistence that everything is still fine and the show goes from strength to strength etc, when the show is clearly rotten at the core.  It's just a shame they didn't end it when inspiration was beginning to wane, some of the episodes resemble fan-fiction more than anything these days.

[PaulTMA]

That London episode was horrible, I thought I was watching a weaker episode of Family Guy.  Almost entirely unlikeable.

[ThickAndCreamy]

That London episode was horrible, I thought I was watching a weaker episode of Family Guy.  Almost entirely unlikeable.

Yay innit.

[scarecrow]

thinking about the episodes that 'signposted' the decline, I actually quite enjoyed a lot of them. The Homer vs. NY one, for example, still holds up. In retrospect, I can see how it got us to where we are now, but still, it had a lot of heart.

I'm actually quite surprised at how sad remembering how much I used to LOVE the show has made me.

[samadriel]

Looking at the seasons on Wikipedia, I'd have to agree that season 9 is the cutoff.  There's still a few from it that I'm happy watching, but that's when the inferior ones start showing up -- 'Principal and the Pauper' (man, the quote from Ken Keeler in that wiki article is some sad stuff), 'Simpson Tide', 'All Singing All Dancing', 'Das Bus', 'The Catridge Family', 'Natural Born Kissers', 'Lost Our Lisa'... it's worse than I thought, actually (although I like the 'City of NY' one, don't quite know why it gets so much flak, it's far funnier than, say, 'Simpson Tide').  Still, even if some of them are horribly contrived (do I get bonus points for using the word 'contrived' correctly?  It's horrible what people will attach the word to on the internet!), it's recognisable; season 10 is shocking bilge.  Shilge.  'Bart the Mother' in-fucking-deed...  and by season 11 we were getting shit like 'Jebus'.

[Smeraldina Rima]

My favourite were the ones before the supposed golden age. But I can see that the golden age is a lot better then the late episodes. As well as losing its quotidian family centre and charming animation, I think it got too fast and MTV-like in its pacing and started to get really ironic as well, before all the post simpsons cartoons such as Southpark and Family Guy. It lost faith in its own more innocent funniness and by the time Gary Coleman appeared to say 'watcha talkin' 'bout, Moe', it no longer had that American warmth of Different Strokes. It's mostly in the look though. If they did the fantastic early psychiatrist buzzing each other scene now, and it's the kind of set piece that is still there from time to time, it would just annoy me I think. Far too bright and smooth.

Also a cartoon can be harder to sustain than a long running sitcom because in Friends or Seinfeld, no matter how much we know about Ross or George there's still an actor giving there all to define their character's personality each episode, whereas with animation and a seperate voice role, the scripts seem to have resorted to total shorthand for Ned Flanders and Homer especially, everyone in fact.

[klaatu!]

I guess Groening's attitude also agitates me, the continued insistence that everything is still fine and the show goes from strength to strength etc, when the show is clearly rotten at the core.

Yes, this really bugs me. I've been listening to the commentaries on the seasons 5 and 6 DVDs and Groening is very critical about some tiny little things in otherwise brilliant episodes, so I wonder what he must honestly make of some of the recent stuff. One bit that sticks in my mind is a moment in 'Deep Space Homer', where Homer and Barney are spinning around in the centrifuge and Homer's face turns into Popeye - Groening stated that he hated the joke and thought it was stretching things too far, yet there have been many surreal moments in later episodes that have been far more tangential and pointless.

I find it really hard to point the finger at one person. A lot of people seem to blame Mike Scully, seeing as he took over as show-runner in season 9, yet the worst episode in the season, the oft-mentioned 'The Principal and the Pauper', was actually produced by Bill Oakley and Josh Weinstein, who both co-produced some great stuff during seasons 7 and 8. Furthermore, when Scully stepped down the show sunk even lower. And Scully's successor is Al Jean, who was one of the show-runners during seasons 3 and 4, which contain some perfect moments of TV.

I think the best ever period was seasons 5 and 6, which were run by David Mirkin, yet Mirkin continued to produce the show (and has defended the direction of the show), and was also one of the main creative consultants on the movie, which was woeful. John Schwartzwelder's another strange one: he's written some of the best episodes of anything ever, yet he is also responsible for episodes like 'Kill the Alligator and Run' and 'The Regina Monologues'.

[dredd]

  I didn't realise that "The Principal and the Pauper" was considered to be especially awful. It seemed fairly average to me, though to be honest I remember few details about it (like many of the others).
  I find the adverse reaction to it quite perplexing. Here's an alternative point of view I just found:

If you are a Simpsons fan who hates this episode, deep down inside your problem is not that Armin Tamzarian can never be spoken of again; it's that you take the back story of Seymour Skinner far too seriously.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/362900/the_most_controversial_and_despised.html?cat=39

  I say this chap is on to something here.

[samadriel]

I, conversely, think he's a fucking idiot.

"I must immodestly admit that I got "The Principal and the Pauper" the first time it aired. I understood what the intention of this episode was about. Too many others do not."

What he apparently 'got' is that...

"He's a character on a TV show!"

Wow, 'TV entertainment is frivolous, therefore it is beyond criticism!'  That's some revolutionary shit.

"It is about the fact that not just the people of Springfield, but so many millions of viewers of the Simpsons are so resistant to change and the introduction of something really unique-and entirely plausible-that something deep down inside them is offended."

Or maybe viewers dislike it because they know it's a uninspired, fobbed-off stunt to get attention, completely at odds with the character (try and square 'Armin' with the character in this or this), and which demands enormous change while actually delivering none (or did Timothy Sexton not stick around for the scene where they decide never to mention it again?  Did he happen to catch the next eleven years, in which they dutifully never mentioned it again? (aside from, what, a one-liner?  Two, maybe?)  I don't think that episode's the very worst of them (I caught a fair bit of seasons 9 through 12, so I'm spoilt for choice in that regard), but its only saving grace is that its vandalisms are so easily ignored; not exactly a stirring recommendation.
Oh, and look, he goes for the fanboy baiting at the end; "Fanboys hate things that are shit, and I hate fanboys, therefore I DEMAND THAT TV BE SHITTIER!"  It's like the Doctor Who thread...

[biggytitbo]

It's simple. Too many episodes. They're not even repeating themselves anymore. They're repeating the already 5th repetition of the same joke or situation. Watching it now I'm just bored of it more than anything. I'm bored of the characters, the style and the plots because I've seen it all before far too many times.

[Milo]

It's quite obvious that the actors don't give a shit any more as well. They can no longer do the voices, not even Lisa.

[Little Hoover]

I don't really see why Principal and the Pauper is held up as the start of the decline, it's maybe an idea that didn't really work, but the humour is still distinctly that of the Simpsons, the characters all still act the way they had in previous episodes. The idea seems to be quite similar to the episodes Jebediah Springfield being a pirate, or when we see the reasons behind Ned Flanders being so nice, but in this case the revelation about the character is just too hard to believe.

As has already been mentioned that offthetelly article doesn't seem to realise is that it was an episode produced during the 8th season, by Bill Oakley & Josh Weinstein but the episode didn't air until season 9. Which is important, because it was before the change in head writer, And it was that guy, Mike Scully who was head writer for season 9-12 who should get most of the blame for the direction the show took, it's because Principal and the Pauper aired just before we started getting all the bad episodes, that it gets held up as the start of the decline, but the problems of that episodes are quite different to the problems we have in episodes today.

I also just hate to lay the blame at Bill Oakley & Josh Weinstein, as they seem to have a very enlightened attitude towards internet fans and net criticism, they've said they were fan boys before they became writers on the show, that they'd often agree with criticism they read while they were writers, and from their commentaries, they seem such honest and amiable people. So it seems wrong to blame them because they always seemed to have the right attitude, even though they produced the Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie show episode, where comic book guy has his famous "worst episode ever" line It wasn't really their intention to say with that "People on the internet are dumb nerds, and we should ignore them" But of course a lot of people have interpreted that way, and used it to dismiss all internet criticism.

It does seem harsh to lay all the blame at one person, but the change that occurred under Mike Scully was so radical, that you have to lay the blame on him, not to mention the position he was in mean he's responsible for everything that's in the script, he okay's and dismisses other writers ideas, he was the one responsible for hiring the writers that came on board during those years, he's also involved in directing the voice actors, selecting the music cues, working with the animation directors, everything like that, and the thing is all the things like this got noticeably worse under him, even if writers, animator and actors can be blamed for slacking off in those years, he's sort of like the boss, so he's responsible for making them do these things better. That's why he's the one that gets so much of the blame.

[drberbatov]

If you look at the Simpsons as an institution like Blue Peter or Heartbeat then maybe we just grew out of it?

[Vitalstatistix]

If you look at the Simpsons as an institution like Blue Peter or Heartbeat then maybe we just grew out of it?

Nah, it's shit.

[The Masked Unit]

Quickly looking through the episode guides, as far as I'm concerned season 9 is classic material bar a few random episodes like Lisa's Sax, All Singing, All Dancing and Natural Born Kissers (I'm a big fan of The Principle and the pauper, as it goes). Season 10 is about 50% decent, season 11 about 40% good and looking back, this is where I lost interest as I can barely recall anything from season 12 onwards.

In a perfect world, it should have been culled at season 10 and Futurama should have continued for a couple more seasons. Would anyone be particularly interested if and when Groening comes up with a new series concept?

[thehungerartist]

If you look at the Simpsons as an institution like Blue Peter or Heartbeat then maybe we just grew out of it?

I grew into Blue Peter: as soon as I was old enough to command a stiffy, I was Huq'd.  Anyone who thinks Heartbeat was an institution should to be in one.

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Would anyone be particularly interested if and when Groening comes up with a new series concept?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Simpsons_Spin-Off_Showcase#Proposed_real_spin-offs

Groening is a terrible ideas man, by the way.

[naniwaelegy]

No-one like S16-19  ...
Later episodes seemed to pick up if memory serves. But I would need to go back and check how they hold up.

[13 schoolyards]

I'd suggest that the last few seasons have picked up a little, but the damage has clearly been done.  You could probbaly come close to making one decent season out of the last five, but it wouldn't be "The Simpsons" as we like to remember it, as pretty much all the characterisation has been worn down to one-note - if that.  "Look, Moe's trying to kill himself again!"  They seem to have completely forgotten how to create decent stories around the supporting cast, when that was what kept the show watchable for years after the main cast had become kinda stale.  They really seem to have lost any idea of the characters as living, well, characters - there's no real confidence in the way they're handled, no sense that they could try something new with them that would still be in character.

[The Masked Unit]

Groening is a terrible ideas man, by the way.

He came up with The Simpsons and Futurama, no?

[Rexel Matador]

I grew into Blue Peter: as soon as I was old enough to command a stiffy, I was Huq'd.  Anyone who thinks Heartbeat was an institution should to be in one.

I agree.  Do you remember the episode when they went on one of their foreign excursions and Konnie and whoever the other female presenter at the time was were in bikinis having some kind of oily massage?  I'm not making this up.  It was intense, man.

Sorry that was rather off topic.  Re the simpsons, I remember a particular moment - in the episode GI D'oh, the army guy asks Moe "Why did you just say that sentence fragment?".  For some reason, that moment really nailed the Simpsons coffin well and truly shut for me.  It so neatly summed up the kind of lazy, painfully-trying-to-be-quirky humour that it all seems to revolve around these days.

And I think the reason it carries on is because people collectively seem to refuse to believe that it's rubbish and let it die with dignity.

I'm not really adding anything new to discussion am I?  To sum up - I concur, it used to be good and now it isn't.

[Ignatius_S]

For me, there felt a lot of contempt for the audience filtering through – e.g. lazy endings in the Principal and the Pauper and Das Boot.

I also felt that there was a mistake of adding more adult-orientated jokes as a response (or so I assume) to shows like FG and SP. For example, Homer being raped by a panda (mind you, dressed like that, what did he expect?), Karl and Lenny driving off with two of opera-singing Homer's admirers or Marge remembering the not-so innocent pleasure from riding the merry-go-round horse (Mr Funny-Feelgood) as a girl – the latter especially, as it was followed up with Marge riding the horse again, getting similar pleasure and then revealed that it was Bart and Lisa providing the power for the masturbatory aid.

This article is essential to the understanding of the decline of this once great show.

http://www.offthetelly.co.uk/comedy/simpsons/decade.htm

Yup, a good one alright!

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

He came up with The Simpsons and Futurama, no?

How much did/does he actually contribute to either?

[JPA]

Yes, this really bugs me. I've been listening to the commentaries on the seasons 5 and 6 DVDs and Groening is very critical about some tiny little things in otherwise brilliant episodes, so I wonder what he must honestly make of some of the recent stuff. One bit that sticks in my mind is a moment in 'Deep Space Homer', where Homer and Barney are spinning around in the centrifuge and Homer's face turns into Popeye - Groening stated that he hated the joke and thought it was stretching things too far, yet there have been many surreal moments in later episodes that have been far more tangential and pointless.

I don't think he was pleased about the Principal and the Pauper debacle either. The episode on C4 yesterday was 'The Fat and the Furriest' and I do wonder what Groening thinks of the anthromorphism in episodes like that, when he seemed particularly annoyed about the fact that the fish in 'The War of the Simpsons' winked at the audience, all the way back in season 2.

Season 11-14 has very little to recommend it, and also contains some awful animation, with characters frequently going off-model.

'Saddlesore Galactica' stands out as a particularly bad episode from season 11, where the jockeys are revealed to be goblin-like creatures. Acceptable in a Treehouse of Horror episode, but indicative of the blatent disregard for the viewer that plagues the later seasons when intruding into a 'normal' episode.

[The Masked Unit]

How much did/does he actually contribute to either?

Dunno, but I thought he at the very least designed the characters and settings for both. Am I wrong?