Topic: "Acceptable" targets of prejudice

[copylight]

The Gingers hold Top Trumps here because they are the very definition of the thread title, anywhere, for less.

[Big Jack McBastard]

So a French-Russian-Italian-Irish-Indian-South African who's a poor, baldy, gypsy, shortarse, peado (with ginger balls) wearing a football shirt and holding a cat?

I feel a mong coming on.

Apologies if this is a little large,

[mobias]

I don't get a racist vibe from the SNP in the slightest.  Advocating secession from the UK isn't really racist, is it?

I'm not saying their policies are racist, narrow minded perhaps but not racist. What I don't like about the SNP's support is that there is an element of outright thuggery about some of it. I've never met an SNP supporter who when you ask them about why they vote SNP doesn't pretty much say 'because I hate the English'

My boss at work is a prime example. He votes SNP purely on the grounds he hates the English and asked to go deeper into his reasoning will tell you he hates all their stupid accents. As someone who is half Scottish and half English I just find that element of SNP support really pretty offensive. Its just so negative and so narrow minded and at the end of the day I really don't see it as too far removed from the sort of guff you hear BNP supporters spout. I think a lot of the thought processes involved are similar ie they don't involve the use of many brain cells. 

I dare say there are progressive thinking and open minded SNP voters out there but I've rarely if ever met one.     

[HappyTree]

I'm Scottish but I've never got any racist or prejudiced vibe from the SNP. Admittedly I have never been that interested in politics so perhaps they do have that element to them, but from living there and generally soaking up their presence all I've got from their proclamations is that they want independence from the rest of Britain for self-determination reasons.

Mind you I've never been moved to vote SNP as I disagree with that and don't think Scotland could survive without being a part of the UK. I don't feel patriotic at all, either to Scotland or to the UK. I think Britain is fine as it is. I voted "Yes, Yes" in the devolution referendum so we could have limited leeway to change things at a more local level but complete independence is a mistake, I think. All I'd really like is more representation in Westminster so things like the Poll Tax don't get tested out on an almost completely Conservative-free country.

I've never really met anyone with a big problem with England, but I guess I wouldn't really have much contact with those ignorant and presumably lower-class circles anyway.

[Ronnie the Raincoat]

I wish you'd all stop calling travellers "gypsies".  The correct term is gypos.

[Zero Gravitas]

I'll call them whatever the hell I want!

What are they going to do, put a curse on me?

[Braintree]

Good point actually, i never got that either. I'll also never understand why during the late 80s and 90s it was somehow acceptable to rubbish Mick Hucknall purely on the basis of being ginger. Even now that sort of vicious snarling baffles me - the guy is genuinely great soul singer and has always seemed pretty chilled out and down to earth in interviews. But he's ginger so we must hate him (apparently).

I thought the abuse was more to do with the fact that he was an unattractive man? I love his voice and I used to think the abuse was unnecessary but then I saw that Classic Albums series about Stars and he had the nastiest, tackiest[1] painting I have ever seen in his swimming pool room. He proved money couldn't buy class.

So being Mick Hucknall is an acceptable form of prejudice.

1.	Imagine this said in a Cleveland from Family Guy voice

[Blue Jam]

I have a French friend who once said "Parisians are jerks", and when I asked her to eleborate she agreed that Parisians are to the average French person what Londoners are to the average British person. Is there something about living in a capital city which makes people more ruder and less tolerant, or is it just these two capital cities? When I first moved to London I was amazed at how rude Londoners were, then caught myself acting just like them- getting pissed off at tourists for taking too long using ticket machines and blocking tube platforms with their massive cases, etc. Actually I think the rude Londoner stereotype may be entirely due to people's experiences of Londoners on public transport...

I have a proud ginger friend who reckons gingerphobia is the fault of the high number of hateable celebrity gingers. People associate gingerness with Chris Evans, Geri Halliwell, Catherine Tate, Mick Hucknall etc. Gingers often point out that Marilyn Monroe and Winston Churchill were also ginger, but one dyed her hair and the other didn't have much and it was only seen in black and white photos so they don't really count. Vivian Stanshall was never famous enough... Still, they've now got Damian Lewis and Karen Gillan fighting in the Ginger Corner now so hopefully they'll help the cause.

Oh yes, and my friend loves Tim Minchin:

Tim Minchin: Taboo

[Small Man Big Horse]

Mary Bale.

I've been looking everywhere but we don't seem to have a thread about all of this. Am I missing it somehow?

[El Unicornio, mang]

Mexicans seem to be fair game ("wetback" being a common term for them), and other hispanic groups HATE being mistaken for Mexicans.

Mary Bale.

I've been looking everywhere but we don't seem to have a thread about all of this. Am I missing it somehow?

I thought that might crop up too.

*anxiously awaits vid of her being stuffed in a wheely bin by some kids*

[Small Man Big Horse]

Mexicans seem to be fair game ("wetback" being a common term for them), and other hispanic groups HATE being mistaken for Mexicans.

I thought that might crop up too.

*anxiously awaits vid of her being stuffed in a wheely bin by some kids*

There's a rather poor fake one of a cat throwing her in to a bin, but that's about it so far.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I'm sure some bright spark will come up with the idea of dressing as a cat and putting her in a bin.

[Blue Jam]

This is generally a thing that people do with disability and also sexuality I find. It's just a shitty excuse and I often pick them up on it.

The sexuality one's something I've had a lot of experience of. I once worked at a company with a lot of camp gay staff and one time I was sent on an errand with another member of staff who wasn't happy about having to do some work for them, telling me "bloody typical, they only get out of doing the hard work themselves because they're gay". I refused to dignify this with an answer and said nothing when she voiced the opinion again. I think this colleague saw me as a fellow traveller of sorts, someone who got as annoyed by their campness as she did and wanted me to say "yeah, bloody gays, I'm sick of them too." I was really offended that she expected that of me.

Recently I've had another gay boss and have lost count of the number of sniggering comments people have made about him but I think most of it is down to immaturity- I have a lot of younger colleagues who seem to view him as a bit of a novelty and I suspect he's the first real live gay they've ever encountered. They seem surprised that he's straight-acting and doesn't fit all the stereotypes they expect him to, but despite their age I'll still pull them up on it as they should learn to get over their prejudices sooner rather than later. That said something I find more offensive is the way some women here behave like proper fag hags towards him- I find that behaviour horribly patronising and cringe-making myself and while he doesn't seem to mind too much he doesn't seem 100% comfortable with it either.

People here seem to think I'm being a bit humourless about the whole thing- am I? I know how nervous people can get about being out in the workplace and how my boss is still apprehensive about being open with everyone, and I don't think these childish comments help much.

[SetToStun]

Back with the old ginger thing, I take the mickey a bit as well but only really because they seem to expect it. Everyone who knows me, however, knows I have a real thing for red or ginger hair on a lady. I grew up in the era of Carol Decker, you see, and, quite frankly, who could look at her in the early 80s and not think "I would; oh dear Lord, I so would"? Especially when they were a teenage boy at the time.

Also short people seem to expect a ribbing and it's rude to disappoint people when it would cause you no grief not to do so.

Thinking about it, that's not really prejudice though, is it? Arse.

[mobias]

So being Mick Hucknall is an acceptable form of prejudice.

A friend of mine's brother is a fashion photographer in London and he used to flat share with a girl who worked as a model. The girl was dating Mick Hucknall for a while and apparently Mick Hucknall is very loud in bed to the point where he used to scream so loudly during orgasm the neighbours used to complain.

For some reason I find that highly amusing.   

[mook]

cheers for that mobias - it's not even 9am and now i've got a terribly vivid image of a naked thrusting, spurting 'o' faced mick hucknall in my head. i've been sober for six days now, if i fall off the wagon you and that ruby toothed catawauler are to blame.

[SetToStun]

I reckon all spit flies off his lips when he gets his vinegar face on and he squeals like a pig at moments of delight. Yeah.

You've been sober for six days?! What brought that about? Don't leave me the last cider-addled gooner on the board; you just can't do that to me!

[Steve Lampkins]

the way some women here behave like proper fag hags towards him- I find that behaviour horribly patronising and cringe-making

What exactly do they do? I've not thought further than a fag hag is a woman who likes being friends with a gay man, and hangs around with him a lot. Do they ask him for fashion tips or something? Flirt with him?

[mook]

ignore.

[CaledonianGonzo]

I'm not saying their policies are racist, narrow minded perhaps but not racist. What I don't like about the SNP's support is that there is an element of outright thuggery about some of it. I've never met an SNP supporter who when you ask them about why they vote SNP doesn't pretty much say 'because I hate the English'

I dare say there are progressive thinking and open minded SNP voters out there but I've rarely if ever met one.     

While there are anti-English and reactionary elements that vote SNP, I'd still argue that it's a pretty progressive party.  Why vote SNP to drive the English out of Scotland when it's not one of their policies?  An independent Scotland would still work in partnership with England and it's not like there'd be border controls or immigration caps or anything.  Better to vote SNP - not, I should add, that I do - because their policies include some pretty good/liberal ideas like scrapping Trident, removal of US military presence from Scottish soil, a committment to invest in green energy, withdrawal of troops from NATO conflicts, etc.

I think the best example I can find is that I've met a fair number English people - now resident en Ecosse - who've voted for them as they espouse some fairly old-school Labour/left-wing values without being quite as hard-boiled an option as the Scotland Socialist Party or as horrifically hypocritical/Neocon as New Labour.  My long-term life-partner/spouse-person is from the dark side of the border, but has been known to cast her vote that way.

But, yeah - there will be 'Remember 1314'-style berks that do vote SNP because they watched Braveheart when they were young and it made a big impression on them, but the joke's probably on them.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Thepuffpastryhangman?

[Blue Jam]

What exactly do they do? I've not thought further than a fag hag is a woman who likes being friends with a gay man, and hangs around with him a lot. Do they ask him for fashion tips or something? Flirt with him?

One woman in particular actually describes him as "fabulous" while getting a bit too touchy-feely with him. I've also heard women asking him about fashion and shopping despite him being more interested in cars, football and curry. One woman here keeps going on about how much she wants to go shopping with him and how she can't believe "someone like him" is a scientist. As someone who mainly talks about science with him I can see he'd be wasted on a career as a window dresser.

[mook]

Thepuffpastryhangman?

oy! that goy - smart he isn't, such a kvetcher but what more do expect from futz from the hotseplots?

[Cohaagen]

Though the party itself is very careful to avoid it, having lived in Scotland all my life I've met far too many narrow-minded or even outright bigoted Nats to be in any doubt that a significant percentage of SNP grassroots support is based on, or helped by, antipathy towards England and the English. More common, though, is a pervading attitude of "wha's like us" superiority or exceptionalism - we're always banging on about inventing the television, steam engine, telephone[1], our better education system (I suppose it is in some ways), and our continuing attempts to highlight some Caledonian connection to a famous person, no matter how tenuous, in an effort to ingratiate ourselves with their achievement - Neil Armstrong's bizarre visit to Langholm after the moon shot for example, or Elvis' 20-minute stop at Prestwick Airport in the 60s which is guaranteed to pop up every time Reporting Scotland or ITV regional news runs a story on Presley.

removal of US military presence from Scottish soil

As far as I know, there has been no US military contingent in Scotland since 1992. They don't even use Machrihanish any more.

Even George Orwell felt the need to point out that Eire could only afford its luxury of neutrality and a token domestic military during the Second World War because they relied, unspokenly, de facto, on the UK for their wider defence from the Germans, who would almost certainly have walked into the South during any invasion of the British Isles. By turn, the SNP have a curious idea that we're all going to become pasty-faced emirs and sheikhs from oil revenue, without considering a) who says it'll fall into our economic zone anyway? and b) how do you expect companies to invest in and operate dozens of oil fields if the host country isn't capable of defending them? Like it or not, the world's most important resource needs a considerable investment in a navy and specialist troops. At the moment we have the Royal Navy and Marines, and the Norwegians possess a surprisingly powerful fleet for defence of their offshore fields, as do the Danes. They both take it very seriously.

I'd also disagree in part with the characterisation of the SNP as a "progressive" party. Socially, some of their policies are indeed, but they share New Labour's deeply authoritarian style and penchant for proscriptive legislation. For the most part, Scotland has never really had a tradition of individual liberty and rigorous parliamentary debate that so colours England's history (before the Union, our Parliament was notoriously so weak and corrupt the Kirk took care of many domestic matters). You can see that in the Nats response to many issues: ban Buckfast, ban cheap alcohol, ban the legal highs, ban air rifles, ban under-21s from drinking, ban tail docking (mutilating a baby boy's penis is still fine, though), ban foreign landowners, ban tanning salons, ban tobacco advertising and smoking in pubs, ban alcohol advertising, etc. Every perceived problem, no matter how small or tabloid-fuelled, is seen as requiring massive retaliation from central government.

These reasons, a general hatred of any kind of nationalism, and the commitment to independence, are why I could never support the SNP. Throwing my lot in with them because I agree with certain of their social policies seems a bit like booking yourself in for major elective surgery because you find the hospital beds comfy.

1.	Though we seem to have invented fuck-all in the last 60 years, sadly

[CaledonianGonzo]

1...um...nu un.  Sorry - in an almight rush, so must be briefer than your response merits, I'm afraid.

More common, though, is a pervading attitude of "wha's like us" superiority or exceptionalism - we're always banging on about inventing the television, steam engine, telephone[1], our better education system (I suppose it is in some ways), and our continuing attempts to highlight some Caledonian connection to a famous person, no matter how tenuous, in an effort to ingratiate ourselves with their achievement - Neil Armstrong's bizarre visit to Langholm after the moon shot for example, or Elvis' 20-minute stop at Prestwick Airport in the 60s which is guaranteed to pop up every time Reporting Scotland or ITV regional news runs a story on Presley.

1.	Though we seem to have invented fuck-all in the last 60 years, sadly

If you dislike it, fine, but there's nothing particularly wrong with it, is there?  I'd say it typifies most small countries overshadowed by larger, dominant (warlike!) neighbours.  Exceptionalism is by no means specific to Scotland.  Maybe it's small-minded, but a more benevolent eye would perhaps conclude that having a sense of your own history isn't exclusively a narrow or exclusionary standpoint.

As far as I know, there has been no US military contingent in Scotland since 1992. They don't even use Machrihanish any more.

My bad...

Even George Orwell felt the need to point out that Eire could only afford its luxury of neutrality and a token domestic military during the Second World War because they relied, unspokenly, de facto, on the UK for their wider defence from the Germans, who would almost certainly have walked into the South during any invasion of the British Isles.  By turn, the SNP have a curious idea that we're all going to become pasty-faced emirs and sheikhs from oil revenue, without considering a) who says it'll fall into our economic zone anyway? and b) how do you expect companies to invest in and operate dozens of oil fields if the host country isn't capable of defending them? Like it or not, the world's most important resource needs a considerable investment in a navy and specialist troops. At the moment we have the Royal Navy and Marines, and the Norwegians possess a surprisingly powerful fleet for defence of their offshore fields, as do the Danes. They both take it very seriously.

I'd also disagree in part with the characterisation of the SNP as a "progressive" party. Socially, some of their policies are indeed, but they share New Labour's deeply authoritarian style and penchant for proscriptive legislation. For the most part, Scotland has never really had a tradition of individual liberty and rigorous parliamentary debate that so colours England's history (before the Union, our Parliament was notoriously so weak and corrupt the Kirk took care of many domestic matters). You can see that in the Nats response to many issues: ban Buckfast, ban cheap alcohol, ban the legal highs, ban air rifles, ban under-21s from drinking, ban tail docking (mutilating a baby boy's penis is still fine, though), ban foreign landowners, ban tanning salons, ban tobacco advertising and smoking in pubs, ban alcohol advertising, etc. Every perceived problem, no matter how small or tabloid-fuelled, is seen as requiring massive retaliation from central government.

These reasons, a general hatred of any kind of nationalism, and the commitment to independence, are why I could never support the SNP. Throwing my lot in with them because I agree with certain of their social policies seems a bit like booking yourself in for major elective surgery because you find the hospital beds comfy.

Oh - there're plenty of reasons not to vote for the SNP.  As I indicated, I don't myself - just saying that there are reasons why people might.  Personally, their non-militaristic bent ticks my box, but I realise that not everyone's as much of a tree-hugging hippy as I am.  Though now that they've been in power for 3 years or so (albeit as a minority government), I wouldn't say there's been any great rise in anti-English sentiment or physical manifestation thereof.  Left-wing nationalism can and should be seen as distinct from its counterpart on the right.  Though I share your qualms about any authoritarian tendencies.

[mobias]

But, yeah - there will be 'Remember 1314'-style berks that do vote SNP because they watched Braveheart when they were young and it made a big impression on them, but the joke's probably on them.

But isn't that about 99% percent of SNP voters though? I find a lot of peoples reasoning for voting for a particular party in this country fairly brainless at times but none more so than the average SNP voter.
Very very occasionally you'll get some industry bigwig on the god awful program that is Newsnight Scotland proclaiming comparably well thought out and considered views on why Scotland should be independent.
One of the things I find strange about the SNP is that for a party that does try to be supposedly progressive and forward looking it is entirely obsessed with the past and about being defined by what it sees are negative events in history. I've lost track of the amount of times during interviews Alex Salmond has prattled on about the act of Union and how the people of Edinburgh betrayed the rest of Scotland. And that's another thing to mention. Not only does Salmond hate the English he actually secretly hates people within Scotland who don't support his views. They're traitors and treasoners to his sense of nationalistic idealism both historically and today. I really don't think he and his party are a million miles away the really ugly side nationalism, its just well covered up. I'm sure the really hard core nationalists with in the SNP would be glad if all the English in Scotland packed their bags and left.   

[kenneth trousers]

On the ginger thing. The first time I saw a resurgence of ginger baiting was in the RAF in the early 90s.
There was a full time detachment of 4 Tornado F3s used to patrol the Falkland Islands (it's now done by the Eurofighter I believe). Like every overseas section of the RAF around that time 1435 FLT had a section bar. This bar had a secret society called The Claw which used to meet every Friday afternoon. Through the week people could nominate each other in secret (working on the 10% evidence principle) for different "brassings" e.g. Spoilt Bastard brass, Snake Brass and The Leather Cap of Suspectedness. The OC of the detachment would then judge each nomination on its merits and award the brasses. Whilst all this was going on any gingers would be made to stand in a drip tray which had kitty litter in, whilst wearing a waist coat made out of toilet (racasan) blocks because, as everyone knows, gingers stink of piss.

Just a little insight there into the institutionalised bullying, endemic in the armed forces.

[confettiinmyhair]

addicts?

It's impossible not to be prejudiced around an addict. Recovering addicts are even worse.

[mini goatbix]

Ugly or stupid people suffer from prejudice quite a bit and that's usually considered acceptable.

[HappyTree]

Kenneth, I'm interested in how that would actually work in practice. How did they apply this bullying?

You see, I've never been one for practical jokes or japes or any kind of "amusing" ribbing. I liked the Cubs because we were children having fun. I absolutely hated the Scouts because I found the hilarious pranks to be bullying. I've never been a man's man, I'm not a rugby type like my father. I don't understand this kind of unkind male bonding that the recipient is expected to suffer gladly for the sake of being accepted in the gang. I hate gang mentality, it smacks of boorish ignorance.

I was bullied a bit myself in the Scouts because I wasn't interested in sports very much, was evidently shy and was I guess what one might call a bit of an intellectual snob. I found most other people to be idiots. Some of that was self-preservation and some was trying to gain my cerebral mother's approval.

I dealt with my own bullying by being a grass. I have no qualms about signalling bad behaviour to authority figures or speaking up publicly about abuse when peer pressure tried to make me keep schtum. I just don't buy into the whole "mustn't tell" philosophy, it's just an excuse to allow bullies to continue unchallenged.

So I'm trying to imagine myself in a military situation. How would I fare in the RAF? Not very well, I'm afraid. I have a problem with following orders and don't gel very well in group situations. I'd be forever refusing to do whatever I'm told to do. And if I had seen or been a victim of the kind of prankish bullying you recount I'd have done something about it. As an observer I'd have told on whoever was perpetrating it and as a victim I'd simply have refused to play along.

How do you physically force a reluctant and recalcitrant ginge to stand in a bucket of cat litter wearing a coat of urinal cakes? If anybody had forced me to do such a thing I'd have definitely reacted very badly.

I guess this sort of thing is generally accepted in high-testosterone male occupations. "Oh they're only having hijinks," society seems to say with a wry smile. I cannot see it like that. How did it work?