Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 11:55:52 AM

Login with username, password and session length

The Harry Hole thread.

Started by BritishHobo, September 16, 2013, 09:04:52 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

BritishHobo

I am reluctant to sod up the books thread with more updates of my reading progress, so here we are. I just finished Police, which was wonderful although perhaps too over-stuffed bait-and-switch cliffhangers. Thoughts on the series?

amputeeporn

Big fan. Thought the recently (finally!) released Bat was slightly dissapointing - though it will be great when Cockroaches comes out in November (I think) and new fans will be able to read them in order, right up to ten.

For me, Phantom was his high point. Such a deliberate grounding and reigning in of the HUGE THRILLER elements seen in Leopard. Enjoyed Police but not quite as much. I'd hoped after Phantom he might be leaving the twisted serial killer thing behind. Don't get me wrong - it had some characteristically over the top (read: brilliant) set pieces, but ocassionally felt a tad cheap. And (spoiler for the first 100 pages or so):
Spoiler alert
the effort to make us think Harry was comatose felt like a real waste of time. Should have been revealed after the first chapter.
[close]

But yes, big fan of the series.

Beagle 2

Can you dive in anywhere with these books or should you really start from the beginning? Not sure I can be arsed to read a book set in 1997. It was quite a dull year.

amputeeporn

I think Redbreast is a great place to start. The following two books form a trilogy within the series and have a pretty decent pay-off. They're also three very different books that take you directly into the next phase.

Bat, the first, has only just been published in English and it really is a minor work. Enjoyable for the diehards. Cockroaches, the second, isn't out until November. I think the release schedule of these says it all.

It's generally accepted that Redbreast (the third) is where he really nailed it and, as I say, it leads you into a great sequence of books.

Serge

I finally got around to reading them this summer, after my dad had been raving about them, when I had the good fortune to find four books in a charity shop - 'The Redbreast', 'The Devil's Star', 'The Redeemer' and 'Phantom'. I knew vaguely that there were two before 'Redbreast', but started with that one, and yes, despite it probably being my least favourite of the series, I'd say that's the one to start with. Not least because, as amputeeporn points out, the following two books form a loose trilogy with it. Having said that, I haven't read 'Nemesis', and jumped straight ahead to 'Devil's Star', but Nesbø always puts just enough in to make nearly every book readable as a standalone title. (I mentioned in the 'Books' thread, that I think you really need to have read all that came before, or at least from 'The Snowman' onwards to really get on with 'Police'.)

'The Devil's Star' was the first one I thought was a classic - the moment of realisation that
Spoiler alert
some of the events taking place in the students hall of residence weren't happening in the same timeframe as others
[close]
was a great jolt. The resolution of the case
Spoiler alert
does get rather sidelined by the resolution of the Waaler story, but that's ok.
[close]

'The Redeemer' was also excellent, but it was with 'The Snowman' that I think Nesbø moved up a gear. An absolute stone classic of the genre, and made all the more astonishing for the fact that
Spoiler alert
the murderer had already been in a previous novel, and in passages that read entirely differently if you go back and read them after reading 'The Snowman'.
[close]
The line about making one of the victims 'eat snow until [she] pisses herself' is particularly grim.

I think 'The Leopard' was probably a bit overlong, and a bit too satisfied with it's
Spoiler alert
"It's him! No, it's him! Actually, no it was him all along!"
[close]
-type plot, but some amazing writing, though Nesbø apparently regrets some of the more violent scenes (though isn't specific about which ones.) 'Phantom' was entirely different and completely great - I was wrongfooted right until the end about the identity of the murderer,
Spoiler alert
despite basically being told who it was in the opening chapters.
[close]

And so to 'Police', the final Harry Hole book, which I too have just finished reading.
Spoiler alert
A happy ending for Harry - who'd have thought it? Though he does have to contrast that with the impending horrors that are likely to befall Aurora Aune, of course. I agree with BritishHobo that the bait-and-switch thing is overdone, but the final one is definitely worth it. As I said in the 'Books' thread, the murder of Beate Lonn is one of the most upsetting things I've ever read - I was up late on Saturday night reading it, and had a very unsettled night afterwards, sleeping fitfully, and bringing it to mind every time I woke up. Cheers, for that, Jo! Interesting that every member of the family unit at the end has been responsible for taking someone else's life....
[close]

Definitely one of my favourite discoveries this year.

Hank Venture

I read them all in the chronological order, and I can't really make sense of why they've published them the way they did in English. Mind, it's been a while, and I still haven't gotten round to Police. I liked all of them; high-octane page-turners, nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, was there any stuff that you found odd, didn't understnad or figure out? I mean, I haven't read the English ones, but they're quite... local, aren't they?

CaledonianGonzo

I'm going to straight up ask it:  are they well-written page turners with with sizzling hot prose and genuine literary craft? 

Or are they just low-rent pulp about serial killers and detectives with demons a la yer Wallanders and Rebuses and Stieg Larssons?

Basically, I'm looking for something that's a doddle to read on holiday but that shies away from A Touch Of Cloth-style territory.

amputeeporn

Quote from: CaledonianGonzo on September 17, 2013, 08:48:54 AM
I'm going to straight up ask it:  are they well-written page turners with with sizzling hot prose and genuine literary craft? 

Or are they just low-rent pulp about serial killers and detectives with demons a la yer Wallanders and Rebuses and Stieg Larssons?

Comfortably both. You won't walk away with a notebook full of copied-down lines, but I think there's something genuinely moving about Harry's journey. You definitely need to enjoy the insane and the ridiculous, though, especially as the series goes on. Not sure where you'd land because I think Mankell, Rankin and Larrson are three wildly different writers.

Might I recommend Christine Falls by Benjamin Black? (aka John Banville) - really beautifully written mystery, and first in series, featuring Quirke a Dublin pathologist in (I think) the 60s. The lines and characterisation are far above average, as you'd expect from a Man-Booker winner, but I'm afraid you do sacrifice some pace for that. It's about to air on bbc staring Gabriel Byrne, though, so well worth getting into.

Back to Nesbo, re: Snowman:
Spoiler alert
In spite of the hint to his end in Leopard, does anyone else ocassionally expect him to pop up?
[close]

CaledonianGonzo

Quote from: amputeeporn on September 17, 2013, 06:54:13 PM
Comfortably both.

Yeah - I don't think I phrased that very well.  Thomas Dragon's Red Dragon is comfortably both as well.  I guess I just get frustrated by the fact that most crime fiction I read is so badly written.  I get wary of approaching the orbit of another Patricia Cornwell or James Patterson.

I had been wondering a while back about the Banville books, but I've struggled with his other stuff.

Serge

You're pretty safe - Nesbø is far, far away from the shite that Cornwell slops up (I can't speak for Patterson.)

Quote from: amputeeporn on September 17, 2013, 06:54:13 PMBack to Nesbo, re: Snowman:
Spoiler alert
In spite of the hint to his end in Leopard, does anyone else ocassionally expect him to pop up?
[close]

I was quite glad that he did that, as
Spoiler alert
having the Snowman pop up in every book as a Hannibal Lector-ish figure would have been extremely wearing. And Katrine Bratt kind of already serves that role, though she's only ever as crazy as the plot needs her to be - i.e. not at all in 'Police'.
[close]

Quote from: Hank Venture on September 17, 2013, 12:57:06 AMBy the way, was there any stuff that you found odd, didn't understnad or figure out? I mean, I haven't read the English ones, but they're quite... local, aren't they?

Obviously I don't know if anything was changed in translation - I have to assume they're pretty faithful to Nesbø's intentions - but there was nothing that I had trouble with. I was telling a friend about some of the musical references - Harry listens to Bon Iver and The Decemberists in 'Police', for example - and he wondered if any of that had been changed from Norwegian bands, but I would imagine most bands these days are reasonably universal, and Hole is likely to be listening to the same stuff that I imagine Nesbø listens to.

BritishHobo

#10
I was wondering that over in the Books thread - in the last few books at least, I've started to think that the pop culture references are disproportionately Anglocentric, and I wondered if Don Bartlett changed them in translation to make them more accesible. Maybe Hank Venture can shed some light on that? I'm thinking of early on in Police, when
Spoiler alert
Katrine watches Breaking Bad and has a conversation with Beate about some English-language movies. This really isn't a Spoiler, I don't know why I'm using the tags.
[close]

I'd like to read them in Norwegian. I feel ignorant that I keep typing names without using the correct symbols - Nesbø, for example. I did look up pronunciations for Nesbø and Harry Hole, just because they sound so British (mainly Harry Hole) if you read them as they look in English, and that was making me feel a bit ignorant as well.

Hank Venture

I haven't read Police, but I can't imagine that it has been changed in translation.

'Harry Hole' is not pronounced the same way, 'Hole' is not the same word as the English 'hole'. Neither is 'Jo' (pronounced like Yoo, rhyming with 'Foo' as in Foo Fighters).

Fun fact about Jo Nesbø: He could've made a comfortable living off of his band, his footballing career, his education as an accountant as well as being a writer.

amputeeporn

Fairly sure the musical references are static but might get a chance to ask someone who'd know. Harry's taste in miserable music is the first thing I bonded with him on. That and the drinking.

Serge

I got ridiculously over-excited at the fact that Katrine was watching 'Breaking Bad'. Possibly because anything to do with 'Breaking Bad' is blowing my mind at the minute. I did like how, in one of the earlier books, a line from a Wilco song was key to cracking the case.

Hank Venture

Yeah, I remember that. I also remember him listening to some old jazz records and The Decemberists, it would surprise me hugely if Breaking Bad was added in the translation.

BritishHobo

With regards to Police then, is that it?
Spoiler alert
Harry gets his happy ending - predicted by Serge in the Books thread - with a wife and a son who join him in killing a man and burying his body. Even Truls Bersten, who I think is such a well-developed character, gets a hopeful ending. But there's some loose ends that seemed to point to another book, or at least leave the possibility open. Asayev's dying message to Hagen that he was working with someone in the police force, Stale Aune's daughter being cornered by her mysterious stalker, Valentin still being free. Unless I'm a fucking idiot and the identity of the stalker was explained, along with Valentin's involvement/fate. I am quite tired. But either way, I can't imagine another book centring on Harry. I like the shifting circumstances, different books opening with Harry alone and drunk, or happy and well-adjusted before the inevitable injury/death of a friend, but I can't imagine Nesbø dragging him away from his happy ending.
[close]

Serge

Spoiler alert
The stalker is Valentin, isn't it? And the fate of Aurora the bitter send-off to balance Hole's current happiness. Hagen admits to himself that with Asayev dead, he doesn't have a shred of evidence against Skoyen or any accomplices, so that, sadly, is how that is left - with Bellman as the Dudley Smith of Oslo.
[close]

BritishHobo

I thought so - though I wasn't sure if it was ever confirmed or not. Nesbø's made me paranoid now - any time a passage describes an anonymous person and hints towards them being a specific character, I now automatically assume they're not that character, but someone completely else, usually someone completely harmless.

Serge

The
Spoiler alert
Pink Floyd
[close]
references were the giveaway - music again!

holyzombiejesus

If anyone's interested, there's just been an interview with Jo Nesbo on Radio 4's Open Book.

NurseNugent

I'm glad someone has started this thread because I've been enjoying the Harry Hole series and I don't know anyone else besides my mum who's reading them.  I finished The Leopard  couple of weeks ago and I have a question which I'll put behind spoilers
Spoiler alert
It's established the East German prostitute bought the Leopold's Apple from the arm's dealer in the Congo, how come when the killer used it on her she thought it was a sex toy, surely she'd have been given the spiel about it before she bought it
[close]

So far the only one I've guessed is the Redeemer, right down to
Spoiler alert
Halvorsen's death
[close]
as a similar theme of
Spoiler alert
good sibling/bad sibling not being the way you think
[close]
is used in Nemesis.

I had The Devil's Star unwittingly spoiled for me so didn't enjoy that one as much as I should and I also found The Bat  bit disappointing but I've enjoyed all the others.

BritishHobo

Heads up, The Cockroaches is out today in the UK. Gonna go pick up a copy in a bit.

Presumably like The Bat it's a bit more of a standalone, cinematic thriller, since someone at some point decided The Redbreast was the ideal starting point for the series, when it began to set up ongoing story arcs and delve a bit more into recurring characters.

BritishHobo

Couple of chapters in, and even though the ending to Police is completely perfect, with
Spoiler alert
Harry finally getting a well-earned happy ending
[close]
, I'm incredibly happy to be getting another novel of
Spoiler alert
fucked-up, broken-down drunk Harry.
[close]

Serge

I'm going to wait for the paperback, but will be filling the three other gaps in my collection on Christmas Day - 'The Bat', 'Nemesis' and the non-Hole 'Headhunters'.

On a similar, though off-topic, note, I did try and read my way through Henning Mankell's Wallander books, but lost the will to live halfway through 'The White Lioness'. I know they're really a different kettle of fish to the Harry Hole books, but they really failed to grab me.

BritishHobo

I suppose I should try some other stuff, but despite my love for the Hole series, I keep finding myself really turned off by almost any other crime fiction out there. It's not that I think crime fiction is bad, there's just such a deluge of it that it's hard to tell what's worth checking out - nothing stands out because, as incredible as some of it may be, they're all presented in identical ways and with similar plots. I only got into Nesbo because of the unique hype over The Snowman.

I'm sure a lot of it is fantastic, but I just don't know how to tell the wheat from the shit.

the midnight watch baboon

Looking forward to reading POLICE at Christmas. I've just finished PHANTOM, which I'm glad I tried as it's a fantastic, mystery, drug drug druggy, family fall-apart thrillbook that I was bordering on being loathe to read after finding LEOPARD a tad too bombastic, even though PHANTOM features a decent scoopful of
Spoiler alert
far-fetchedness and amazing Harry Holedini escapes from death
[close]
whilst from the start employs the modern crime fiction no-no for me of
Spoiler alert
long passages of accusatory verbiage written from the POV of a main character in a different font to the rest of the book
[close]
. It still seems just that much more real and therefore works better than LEOPARD, for me. The only other HH I've held in front of my face is Chloe Vevrier's SNOWMAN, which I think is great, haunting, snowy and probably the most 'literary' of those I've read.

I've seen HEADHUNTERS the film, which is really good. Might have a read of that too.

Also FYI I can't stop imagining Harry as looking just like Harry Shearer, despite Nesbo's descriptions of Hole's appearance being nothing like those of Shearer's. Harry mix-up? I 'unno!

Serge

Going on pictures I've seen of Nesbø, I've always assumed Harry's physical appearance was based on himself - though I don't know how tall he is.

I also hate it when you have entire passages/chapters written in a different font, usually italics, to differentiate them from the rest of the book, and I have to admit that they were possibly my least favourite parts of 'Phantom'.

BritishHobo

Oh, man. Just finished Cockroaches. It makes me only ever want more Hole books, even though that would obviously be terrible - it's done now and needn't go any further. But that was wonderful. A little action-movie-ish (though not quite to Leopard levels), especially with
Spoiler alert
the villainous playing at the end, the cheesy "Having a party without me?" one-liner that bizarrely comes on the same page as the villain 'lampshading' action movie clichés when Harry tells him it's 'all over'
[close]
, but wonderful nonetheless. More as just another piece of the character of Harry Hole than as a crime mystery - his
Spoiler alert
conversations with Sis and his father, growing disenchantment as an officer in Norway, and that beautiful final page in the opium den
[close]
all make me sad that the series was translated in such a circular way over here. But also pretty happy to have gotten another glimpse at the character even after the series itself ended.

Hopefully now some of Nesbø's other works will be published over here. From what I've seen there's a short story collection and two novels that are unpublished here, plus a new one due out next year. Yes please.

Maybe I'll learn Norwegian.

NurseNugent

I finished Police last night, loved it apart from
Spoiler alert
Katrine and Bjorn getting together which I thought was a bit naff
[close]

Couple of questions
Spoiler alert
Is Aurora Aule the girl mentioned briefly towards the end who was murdered and  had her tongue cut out
[close]
secondly, not sure if this a spoiler but just in case
Spoiler alert
why no mention of Harry's sister, are we to take she's died of natural causes sometime between The Leopard and Phantom (she's not mentioned in Phantom either is she
[close]

Serge

Interesting spot about
Spoiler alert
Sis
[close]
, I don't think
Spoiler alert
it was mentioned that she'd died, so curious that she didn't appear in the book, particularly at her own brother's wedding!
[close]

I don't remember
Spoiler alert
a girl getting her tongue cut out
[close]
, but Aurora Aune is the daughter of Stale Aune, the police psychologist,
Spoiler alert
whose fate seems to be a fairly grisly one, given the implications of the last few pages.
[close]