That Hollywood live-action Ghost in the Shell filum.

[lazarou]

Some of those folks campaigning for an asian actress can't be too up on their Mamoru Oshii, as he cast Polish actress Malgorzata Foremniak to play the lead in his live-action film Avalon because she was his ideal real-world Kusanagi. The film itself wasn't GiTS-related, but that bit of trivia was widely spread around at the time, and her character is fairly obviously styled after her visually.





Edit: yes I know Masamune Shirow did the original manga and Oshii isn't the be-all end-all, but it's still sort of relevant.

[popcorn]

Some of those folks campaigning for an asian actress can't be too up on their Mamoru Oshii, as he cast Polish actress Malgorzata Foremniak to play the lead in his live-action film Avalon because she was his ideal real-world Kusanagi.

So what?

[Custard]

"ScarJo". Bloody ell. Imagine if someone actually said that in person. Instant pint glass in the throat

Never seen the animated Ghost In The Shell. It's on Netflix though, so might have to finally get round to it this week

[Blumf]

The wider geopolitics the stories are set in definitely locates it in a resurgent Japan, with the ageing US empire being a competitor. However that's not core to the themes and ideas GitS is about, just depends on how clumsily the screenplay translates the source material.

I'm not sure now is the right time for this kind of cyberpunk film, I think stuff like Deadpool and Guardians of the Galaxy (compared to Grimdarkman vs Moodydude) suggest people want a lighter, more escapist story.

Just so long as they get the Tachikomas right.

[Kelvin]

This is correct, but it only explains why it happens. It doesn't justify it.

No, obviously not. But the solution is to cast more Asian (and indeed all minority) actors in non-leading roles, so that some of them can become leading names in the upcoming years. The solution to a lack of Asian representation won't be casting unknown actors/actresses in leads roles, then blaming them if the film fails[nb]Which a little known property like GITS is likely to do.[/nb]. The only other alternative is casting them as leads in unsinkable properties like Star Wars. But there aren't many properties that can cast an unknown actor/actress (of any race) like that.

This might not be the ideal situation, but it is the only way that the situation will change, without scaring the studios[nb]Which is what prevents them from doing it.[/nb]. 

[phantom_power]

Donnie Yen is in the new Star Wars film but as he plays a karate dude in it I suppose it is two steps forward, one step back

[lazarou]

So what?

Just pointing out the director of the original anime had that idea before Hollywood did and didn't seem to have a problem with it. Eh, I just thought it was an interesting detail.

[popcorn]

Just pointing out the director of the original anime had that idea before Hollywood did and didn't seem to have a problem with it. Eh, I just thought it was an interesting detail.

Your wording suggested that it somehow solved everything. But you're right, it is interesting.

[lazarou]

Apologies for that, I was a bit frazzled at the time and definitely could've phrased that better in hindsight.

[Glebe]

There isn't a mainstream American-Asian actress with that kind of clout, or mainstream draw.

Why Hollywood's Whitewashing of 'Doctor Strange' and 'Ghost in the Shell' Is So Frustrating.

Unmistakably Asian A-list movie stars aren't just rare in America, they're not-existent. There is no Asian-American equivalent of Brad Pitt or Will Smith or Michael B. Jordan, and at present it doesn't look like anyone is trying to create one. And it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Yes, you can argue that there are no Asian actors in Hollywood on the level of Johansson or Swinton — but why not? Well, because no Asian actor in Hollywood gets cast in Johansson- or Swinton-level projects. Why not? Because there are no projects demanding Asian actors in major roles.

Has Avater: The Last Airbender been mentioned yet? Didn't that get some stick for casting white actors as Asian characters?

[Spiteface]

Just so long as they get the Tachikomas right.

Maybe they can spin off the Tachikomas into their own movie and go after that Minions money.

Actually, they're one of the few things that have legit made me cry watching a film or TV series (Massive spoiler for Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig)

[Kelvin]

Why Hollywood's Whitewashing of 'Doctor Strange' and 'Ghost in the Shell' Is So Frustrating.

That article reiterates my point, though. You have to create A-list Asian American actors. You do that by casting them in high profile supporting roles, and then, once established, cast them in lead roles.

That's the process nearly all actors have to take. Almost no unknown actor - of any race - goes straight into a lead role. The Star Wars films were able to do it it because they're Star Wars. The answer isn't to cast unknown Asian actors as leads in low profile films like GITS, because if it fails, it will be blamed on the casting and make things worse. You need to cast many, many more Asian actors in supporting roles, so that in a few years time some of them will be leading a movie.   

[Glebe]

That article reiterates my point, though.

Soz  Kelvin, wasn't tryna contradict you. Just thought it was relevant to what you said.

[Kelvin]

Ah, yeah, sorry.

[Kelvin]

Lex Luthor gives his take on it, from inside the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw

[Mango Chimes]

Oh, that's an annoying man.  Made it to about 5 seconds in.

Seems there's different arguments being mushed together over this:  Should the lead in an American version of Ghost In The Shell be white?  Should the lead in an American version of Ghost In The Shell be of Japanese ethnicity?

The answer to both is "not necessarily, no."  The issue of over-representation of white people in American cinema has no special significance in this case.  If it's being relocated to America, the lead could reasonably be any ethnicity.

That big long twitter comment makes the case for never remaking anything.  The argument he puts forward would be as strongly applicable to a new film being made with an Asian lead actress.  A third question: Should an American version of Ghost In The Shell be made?  To which the casting is moot.

[Glebe]

I know there's a Doctor Strange thread, but I'm posting this here because it's relevant to the discussion:

Doctor Strange: Tilda Swinton Talks Controversy over Her Marvel Studios Role.

"The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it," she responded. "It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made."

WHAT'S GOING ON?!

[marquis_de_sad]

Part of @JonTsuei's argument is that he thinks the film cannot be changed from its Japanese context unless an actress of Japanese (or perhaps just generic "East Asian") descent plays the role. What's revealing is that the linguistic aspect doesn't get a word in (if you'll excuse the pun).

This casting is not only the erasure of Asian faces but a removal of the story from its core themes. You can "Westernize" the story if you want, but at that point it is no longer Ghost In The Shell because the story is simply not Western. Understand that media from Asia holds a dear place in the hearts of many Asians in the west, simply because western media doesn't show us. Ghost In The Shell, while just one film, is a pillar in Asian media. It's not simply a scifi thriller. Not to me, not to many others.

[emphasis added]

He doesn't realise that the above quote is very much a "Western" point of view, or to be more accurate, an American one. What the hell is Asian media, anyway?

Dealing with the under-representation of ethnic minorities in Hollywood is an important task, but Tsuei's arguments about the content of Ghost in the Shell just don't work. He wants there to be an argument for a non-white face in that role to be based on what's good for the movie rather than just what's good for the industry. But there isn't a good argument. Cross-cultural exchange is a good thing, I think. Imagine saying that Throne of Blood shouldn't work because Macbeth is Scottish and the story must be set in Scotland and be played by white actors. This is the point where the discourse against cultural appropriation skirts dangerously close to what it is supposed to oppose: chauvinism. The cultural detritus of the world is constantly being remixed and re-appropriated in ways that don't always respect national, ethnic, cultural and linguistic divisions. Arguing that this shouldn't happen, no matter what good intentions you might have, puts you on the side of the reactionaries, in my opinion.

[Kelvin]

I know there's a Doctor Strange thread, but I'm posting this here because it's relevant to the discussion:

Doctor Strange: Tilda Swinton Talks Controversy over Her Marvel Studios Role.

WHAT'S GOING ON?!

They have a different problem, though. Marvel already acknowledged that the original Ancient One character is a racist stereotype; a wise old Asian who teaches a westerner about mysticism and spirituality. So the race was changed to be less racist, and ended up being accused of white-washing. In their defense, they have swapped the races of other, traditionally white characters, in order to be more diverse. But it's a political minefield either way. 

[Blumf]

There didn't seem to be too much fuss with the Mandarin in that Ironman film. Mainly just people disappointed it wasn't the 'proper' version of the character.

[Glebe]

They have a different problem, though. Marvel already acknowledged that the original Ancient One character is a racist stereotype; a wise old Asian who teaches a westerner about mysticism and spirituality. So the race was changed to be less racist, and ended up being accused of white-washing. In their defense, they have swapped the races of other, traditionally white characters, in order to be more diverse. But it's a political minefield either way.

Yeah, I guess there's a bit to much pressure on old Chinese men from ancient times to be wise.

[greenman]

Lex Luthor gives his take on it, from inside the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw

I think he does inadvertently point out a big issue with "Asian" stars. Unlike black leads who were mostly from the US and sometimes the UK most of the "Asian" leads tended to come from east asia, started there careers there and then shifted to the US for the money.

Whats changed is that the Chinese film industry has grown massively(I'm guessing S Korea growing as well) to the degree its offering similar kind of pay and is taking back the former Hollywood refuges and meaning younger stars aren't moving west.

[Glebe]

The Blunt, Yet Difficult Reason Doctor Strange's Ancient One Isn't Asian.

The Ancient One was a racist stereotype who comes from a region of the world that is in a very weird political place. He originates from Tibet. So if you acknowledge that Tibet is a place and that he's Tibetan, you risk alienating one billion people who think that that's bullshit and risk the Chinese government going, 'Hey, you know one of the biggest film-watching countries in the world? We're not going to show your movie because you decided to get political.' If we decide to go the other way and cater to China in particular and have him be in Tibet... If you think it's a good idea to cast a Chinese actress as a Tibetan character, you are out of your damn fool mind and have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

They could have cast a Tibetan, in between monking duties.

[Zetetic]

Is it a problem to acknowledge that Tibet is a place?

[lazarou]

Whats changed is that the Chinese film industry has grown massively(I'm guessing S Korea growing as well) to the degree its offering similar kind of pay and is taking back the former Hollywood refuges and meaning younger stars aren't moving west.

There's certainly major money coming in from China, for sure. You see it in Korean Films & TV Shows more and more, with a massive rise in co-productions along with the bigger stars taking lucrative roles in Chinese productions. It's a much easier crossover too, as most stars become massive through Korean imports and have some serious draw before they even set foot over there. Choosing between that and being the token asian in some US production seems like no choice at all.

[Glebe]

Again, this really should have gone in the Doc Strange thread, but since we're having this discussion here:

Kevin Feige & 'Doctor Strange' Director Chime In on Whitewashing Controversy.

At least they're the issue seriously. On a side note, it was good to see three black superhero leads in Captain America: Civil War.

[Skip Bittman]

Those comments are AWFULLY disingenuous considering they totally avoid the REAL issue of Tibet/China.

[phantom_power]

Those comments are AWFULLY disingenuous considering they totally avoid the REAL issue of Tibet/China.

Why would you address something like that in a Dr Strange film?

[Glebe]

'Captain America' Filmmakers to Produce Chinese Superhero Franchise.

Excited Chinese movie buffs have already nicknamed the project "Captain China."

Although it's being made in China for the Chinese market, so I guess it doesn't really have anything to do with Hollywood embracing minorities...

[Glebe]

'Wolverine' Actress Rila Fukushima Joins Scarlett Johansson in 'Ghost in the Shell' (Exclusive).

Will actually kinda make the white lead casting stick out even more, in away.