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The Legend of Zelda series

Started by Shay Chaise, August 15, 2016, 11:19:19 AM

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Shay Chaise

I would count this series as one of my all time favourites, like many console players, but on reflection, I've only finished Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, that I can remember. I've played a lot more and have great memories but never finished them. I've recently bought a load for the 3DS, so I'm in the process of playing through them. I know Kelvin recently finished them all again, I think, and Cane and Rinse are three quarters through their podcasts on the entire series, so it's not a bad time to share some Zelda thoughts.

The NES original gripped me and my brothers and cousin. The music, the random bombing exploration and remembering where to go. The endless endless dying trying to fight everything on a screen. I don't believe we ever got anywhere with it really, but it gave me a taste for adventure and I remember feeling out of my depth, too far from home, which Dark Souls built on many years later.

I never played LttP, still never have. Zelda 2 no way.

We got an N64 when I was not really into gaming besides Goldeneye, in fact, I dunno if we ever owned one, probably just rented from Blockbuster every so often. Good times. I remember my bros got into OoT and I played a bit. I probably stopped around the time it skips to the grown up Link. I saw the final battle but never played the second half. I'm currently around the same point on the 3DS remake, which I've really enjoyed, but I've stalled at this point because I don't really know where to go, like the nostalgia isn't there now and I just want the fucking horse which I do remember but I've seemingly got to do another dungeon first. I'll do it at some point.

I played half an hour of Wind Waker on my Japanese Wii, couldn't understand it, got to some unbearable stealth section with guards, never played it again. Then I saw Phantom Hourglass advertised on telly and it blew my mind. The mechanics looked so much fun, I basically had to have a DS. Turned out to be probably the greatest gaming machine of my life and I did really enjoy TPH but it was very repetitive and basically just dungeons. Some mind blowing individual puzzles, such as the map stamp and blowing out the fires, but I lost interest. Spirit Tracks supposedly improved on it but I have no memory of it besides riding trains. I've yet to play Link Between Worlds but I heard it's brilliant, albeit very much a load of dungeons and nowt else.

Twilight Princess was the one that got back into gaming when I got a Wii at launch. I absolutely loved the atmosphere and it was kind of my OoT. Yeah, it had a bit of filler and the wolf bits were a bit crap, as was fighting on horseback but I have a lot of fond memories and would love to play the HD remake, but I'm not going to get a Wii U over PSVR. Skyward Sword has a lot of faults looking back and gets a lot of stick but I felt the motion controls allowed for some pretty cool stuff, I remember the flying bug particularly well. The art style is, for me, really beautiful and the flooded forest level was magical. And as shit as the silent realm bits were, I had one of the greatest couch co-op experiences of my life playing that with a mate, narrowly narrowly avoiding death time and again until I finally got the last one after about forty minutes with a millisecond to spare at the top of the highest point of the level. My mate and I were trampolining off the couch. The story was also really affecting and I cried with happiness at the end. That doesn't happen often.

So, here's my thing about Zelda I was thinking...I don't really like the dungeons much. I find them quite stressful and difficult due to basic shit fighting mechanics, and all of my good memories are of the open world stuff. In fact, for all that Nintendo games just feel right, I think that's much much more true of Mario, or Mario Kart or Metroid Prime. Zelda has always felt a bit wonky to me. Traversal is a bit slow. The auto jump thing works but feels restrictive. Combat feels random. Chopping grass or signs feels great but against enemies, it's a bit button bashy. Maybe that's why I find it random, because I'm not playing properly, but it's not exactly Souls or Monster Hunter complexity, and waiting for the opening isn't fun in Zelda because it's so limited.

Probably the best music of any game series ever created, as a full body of work.

What are your thoughts and feelings about Zelda?

Consignia

I'm kind of the opposite, I've played and completed quite a lot of the series but don't have any particular love for it. I've never held any affection for Ocarina of Time or LTTP, which are the usual two stand outs for the series. I will say, I loved Wind Waker and having played a Link Between Worlds recently thought that was a great bit of fun.

Kelvin

#2
Quote from: Shay Chaise on August 15, 2016, 11:19:19 AMSo, here's my thing about Zelda I was thinking...I don't really like the dungeons much.

I don't dislike the dungeons, but I definitely think they're the part of each Zelda that interests me least. For me, it's all about the world, the story and the characters. The quirky idiosyncratic NPC's you find in these games, the sense of place and history, the lore, and the themes of melancholy and separation that run throughout the series. 

For me, Majora's Mask is in my top five games of all time, maybe even my favourite game of all time. On a story-telling and thematic level, I think it's unrivaled; a masterpiece. Yet, on a gameplay level, it's far from perfect. The dungeons are all terrible. It's the world I love. The recurring themes of death, depression and loneliness, all wrapped up in this bright, fun game. Every character has a story, a path and a place in those themes. For a series so associated with colourful worlds, I love that the games are so frequently laced with subtler, sadder moments.

I'll write more later, but yeah, I love this series with all my heart, but not just because they usually play so well, but because they feel deeper and richer than most other games out there. They have soul.   

Kelvin

Oh, while I was having my recent Zelda binge, I also brought this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSisgUerRU

...and if you love the series, I cannot recommend it enough. It's a huge, heavy hardcover tome covering the art work for the entire series, the reasons for design choices and then a huge section devoted to tying all the games together in a timeline, drawing links between worlds characters, objects and locations, and making it all feel cohesive.   

It's official, too, so you get comments from the artists, creators and designers, as well as a sense of authenticity to the timeline section.




Shaky

I started with the first one in the early 90's, loved it, then couldn't get my head around the very different, uniquely punishing Zelda 2. Skipped the third game at the time and went to Link's Awakening on the Gameboy. Still one of my favourites, that, just a brilliantly designed piece of art. Influenced by Twin Peaks and you can totally see that - the island and it's strange inhabitants are amazingly detailed and there's a surprising amount of emotional heft in the unfolding story.

Ocarina... what a game. At uni a friend loaned me his N64 while he ostensibly "studied" and I literally played that fucker for 12 hours straight, no word of a lie. Occasional meals and a piss here and there, but that was it. It's still the high-point of the 3D Zeldas, for me. Majora and Wind Waker have never really done it for me (the sailing sections just killed the latter stone dead) and, while I loved a great deal about Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, I've never felt the need to see them through to the end for some reason.

To be honest, not sure where there is to go now. I mean, I know they're talking up the open world aspect of the Wii U game but I don't think that's enough to suck me back in. Probably says a lot that I'm back playing the Gameboy Colour Oracle games on my phone at the moment and they're a blast. All the necessary ingredients are there.

Re the dungeons - some are a chore, true, but that feeling of getting a little bit further each time - the key element of any Zelda game - makes most of them worth tackling, I think. That's the magic of these games. They're so linear yet at their best, you truly feel like you're the only player to have discovered the next area or item.

Kelvin

Here's something Zelda fans might find interesting.

Mark Brown, the guy that does the excellent Game Maker's Toolkit series on youtube, has also released a separate series analysing/critiquing the Zelda dungeons; one episode per game.

He released the latest episode on Majora's Mask yesterday, but the full series up to that point can be watched here:
 
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc38fcMFcV_ul4D6OChdWhsNsYY3NA5B2

madhair60

I respect this series from afar. I've only had the will to finish a couple of the games - Link's Awakening on Game Boy/Colour, which is one of my favourite games and I've finished multiple times, and Minish Cap on GBA, which I've beaten once and loved the relative intricacy of the world design.

I absolutely cannot get on with the 3D ones. And I've tried - several times. I played Ocarina of Time, got a couple of dungeons in, and stopped. Tried again on the 3DS, thinking the handheld format would lend itself to the gameplay better - same result. And Majora, and Twilight Princess... I just can't get into them. Wind Waker; same, although I think that one has a weak opening with that stealth mission.

I didn't really like Link to the Past either, though I recognise the quality of it and ALL the games. For some reason they just never clicked with me! Maybe I'll try again in a few years.

Bazooka

Ocarina Of Time is a masterpiece there is nothing more to say, the best computer game ever created, Majoras Mask could be but the time countdown is actually a horrible bore in hindsight. Wind Waker is bloody brilliant as is Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. The GB/GBA games speak for themselves, the NES games are bloody brilliant too.

Zelda games; you can only compare them against another Zelda game because they are just that good.

madhair60

Quote from: Bazooka on August 25, 2016, 11:16:41 AM
Ocarina Of Time is a masterpiece there is nothing more to say, the best computer game ever created

Everybody always says this, then I play it and there's that unclued bit where you have to stand on a rug and play the Ocarina to proceed. Masterpiece status revoked.

Replies From View

I've only ever played Link's Awakening, because I bought a Game Boy second hand in the mid 90s and that one came with it.  I thought it was quite good really.

A Link to the Past is the best...then Ocarina and then Skyward Sword.

Kelvin

My order, best to less best:

Majora's Mask
Link To The Past
WindWaker HD
Skyward Sword
Ocarina Of Time (would be higher, but the controls age it over the other 3D incarnations)
Windwaker (Gamecube)
Twilight Princess

The rest I've either not played, or have played but didn't think were that good.

Quote from: Kelvin on August 26, 2016, 01:41:46 AM
My order, best to less best:

Majora's Mask
Link To The Past
WindWaker HD
Skyward Sword
Ocarina Of Time (would be higher, but the controls age it over the other 3D incarnations)
Windwaker (Gamecube)
Twilight Princess

The rest I've either not played, or have played but feel aren't all that good or have aged badly.

What did they actually change for the HD Wind Waker? I know they said they were changing the shard hunt at the end...did they?

I'm just trying to account for the difference in esteem for the two versions in your opinion...clearer graphics can't be that important surely?

Are they really that different?

Kelvin

Quote from: captaincockring on August 26, 2016, 01:44:46 AM
What did they actually change for the HD Wind Waker? I know they said they were changing the shard hunt at the end...did they?

I'm just trying to account for the difference in esteem for the two versions in your opinion...clearer graphics can't be that important surely?

No, they made several fairly significant changes to the gameplay. The two big ones being:

1. A new sail that you get early in the game and which allows you to travel at much faster speeds in the boat, and turn without changing the wind. It basically makes sailing much faster and easier. An absolute must, basically.

2. The shard hunt is significantly overhauled. Several of the shards are now found in locations where you originally found the maps for them. Others are more easily pinpointed on Tingle's map. They've basically reduced the leg work and travel time/distance considerably, and it's now significantly more fun. 

Since my three problems with the original WindWaker were always the sailing, the Triforce hunt and the mediocre dungeons, the two changes above greatly improved the experience for me. The dungeons are still probably the worst in the series, but since you only have 6 in the game and the overworld is possibly my favourite, it balances out.       

Kelvin

Here's a comprehensive list of the changes made:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689649

As you can see, it's fairly impressive, and contains many changes that make frustrating or fiddly tasks quicker, easier and more enjoyable. 

Fancy, more of a remake really.

Tsk...shame I never got a WiiU...I feel bad for not supporting Nintendo when they needed it.

Bazooka

Quote from: captaincockring on August 26, 2016, 02:30:56 AM
Fancy, more of a remake really.

Tsk...shame I never got a WiiU...I feel bad for not supporting Nintendo when they needed it.

I have pumped so much money into the 3DS and PS3, I would like to buy a Wii U but have no time to play it anyway.

Shay Chaise

After fannying around for years wondering whether or not to get one, I'm having a lot of fun with it. If you get a Pro Controller, you realise that almost everything can be played as a regular console. That said, the Gamepad not only feels a hell of a lot better than I expected (it's basically spot on, like you don't even consider you're holding this weird tablet at all) and I've used it as a second screen almost as much as I've played on the telly.

In terms of games, aside from Splatoon which I don't find easy to control, and Mario Maker which is as insubstantial as I thought it would be, I've been well impressed with everything else I've got. It's a few years old now but Bayonetta is in my top 5 games of the year and gets better and better. Wind Waker is really great. 3D World is excellent, a little below Galaxy but a primo Nintendo experience. MK8 is everything everyone told me it was. Throw in the best of the Wii etc and boy, you've got yourself a very misunderstood fantastic console.

Quote from: Shay Chaise on August 26, 2016, 09:40:52 AM
After fannying around for years wondering whether or not to get one, I'm having a lot of fun with it. If you get a Pro Controller, you realise that almost everything can be played as a regular console. That said, the Gamepad not only feels a hell of a lot better than I expected (it's basically spot on, like you don't even consider you're holding this weird tablet at all) and I've used it as a second screen almost as much as I've played on the telly.

In terms of games, aside from Splatoon which I don't find easy to control, and Mario Maker which is as insubstantial as I thought it would be, I've been well impressed with everything else I've got. It's a few years old now but Bayonetta is in my top 5 games of the year and gets better and better. Wind Waker is really great. 3D World is excellent, a little below Galaxy but a primo Nintendo experience. MK8 is everything everyone told me it was. Throw in the best of the Wii etc and boy, you've got yourself a very misunderstood fantastic console.

Never doubted it for a second...I don't think Nintendo could make a bad console with bad games if they tried.

Quote from: captaincockring on August 26, 2016, 10:24:39 AM
Never doubted it for a second...I don't think Nintendo could make a bad console with bad games if they tried.

Please don't say the words 'virtual' and 'boy' to me.

Johnny Textface

Any significant changes to the Twilight Princess remake? Anyone bothered with it?

Shay Chaise

I've only given it twenty minutes to see what it looks like. The models were always a little grotesque to me and they seem a bit more so in HD. Also, I don't know if this is the same with the original but it controls quite jerkily, not like frame rate, more it feels a bit tanky almost, and the camera is a bit busy. It might just be 60fps dissonance because I did struggle to adapt to that with stuff like Dark Souls 2 Scholar update after hours and hours of conditioning in the vanilla game at 30.

Kelvin

Quote from: Johnny Textface on August 26, 2016, 11:25:42 AM
Any significant changes to the Twilight Princess remake? Anyone bothered with it?

It's pretty unimpressive. Nowhere near as improved as the Windwaker remake. Which is a shame, as the original Windwaker was already better than Twilight Princess anyway.

It's had a few improvements to the gameplay. The main one being fewer bugs to collect in the awful twilight sections. Sadly, it still has the awful protracted start, and the first third of the game remains pretty dismal. Graphically it's very unimpressive, too. The textures have been improved, but still look awful, and generally speaking it's an ugly game that needed a much bigger overhaul to justify it's re-release.

DangledTeeth

#23
Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time are my favourites.

I've never been able to get into Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. I think with the former I read there's a mandatory fishing section, which was said to be quite difficult and infuriating, and it put me off.

I didn't get on well with Majora's Mask. I found the whole in-game 3-day time limit until the moon collided put a strain on the gameplay, found it mildly stressful and unenjoyable. I suppose the hurried challenge of it all makes it gratifying for other players. Plus, one of the dungeons (I think it was the Zora-based one) really did my head in. But the mask-collecting and trading element was really good.

As for the Gameboy ones, Link's Awakening is great. I played it again about 4 years ago and didn't collect all of the seashells, I think a few of them were in areas that could be blocked off after completing a task. Minish Cap was quite absorbing. I don't think I beat the last boss despite reading about different methods on how to beat the twat. I played an old save file a few years back and managed to find 7 out of the 8 kinstone pieces I needed in order to make a complete set. I suspect the only one I couldn't get was from
Spoiler alert
the bloke who was on his deathbed
[close]
and the opportunity to obtain it had already passed. I've got one of the Oracle games. I saw it in a retro shop for about £24 and bought it knowing that it's probably uncommon seeing as it's more expensive than the other £3-6 games for sale and might have been sold if I went back another day (and of course because it's a Zelda game I'd never played). I'm sure I read after I bought it that it was one of the last lot of GB titles released when the GBA came out, roughly, so I guess it didn't shift many copies and that's caused it to become borderline rare. And Lttp2 I thought was exceptional.

Zelda 1 I enjoyed once I played it on the Wii after I read up on how difficult it was at the time - what with the lack of strategy guides -and it advised that the key to progression was to bomb every pixel of wall until it opened up a hole, the poke-the-weak-wall-to-activate-a-tone approach wasn't used then. I had the Zelda 2 (gold cartridge) at the time and struggled to go beyond the second dungeon. I got quite far once I played it on the Wii, though.

As for the DS titles, I attempted to replay Phantom Hourglass a couple of months ago and it dawned on me how obtrusive the swiping is of the stylus, and was very surprised the D-pad was out of use in terms of manoeuvrability. I suppose I didn't mind it at the time as the touch-screen was primarily used to play most games, but since the 3DS era (depending on the games) it seems the touch-screen is optional for specific tasks or merely displays a map. Spirit Tracks I gave up/was distracted by a new game
Spoiler alert
after failing to convey the train filled with blocks of ice into the volcano section
[close]
and haven't given it a replay since.

Shay Chaise

Updates:

There's a Zelda sale on the eShop at the moment so I got all the old handheld single player ones, except Minish Cap which doesn't seem to be there. I've also put quite a lot more time into some of these.

I started Link Between Worlds and was really enjoying it an hour in, so I decided I'd best go back to Link to the Past lest I destroy the opportunity to enjoy both. I've only just got the Pegasus Boots but I'm buzzing off it so far. Great chunky look and feel and lots of little secrets which feel like secrets, even though the map is pretty compact. It's a beautifully designed little thing and I can see the first elements of the formula they've been building on ever since.

I've also played about fifteen or twenty hours of Wind Waker HD and I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I suppose the main issue is that it does seem quite obtuse and I don't always know where to go. I've just got the Master Sword and can't remember what it told me to do next. I've lost impetus again. Maybe I'm too conditioned by gaming these days which is more explicit about your options with quest tabs and map markers and so on. Then again, my favourite game is Dark Souls. Ehh, it's just a bit stuck between one thing and another. I accept this is my fault and I could probably see a fortune teller or something but I can't remember where anything is. I feel absolutely no sense of place or geographical awareness of anywhere on the map. The sea is too big, even with the fast sail. I also don't want to fight stuff en route to make it more interesting, I just don't want to sail at all, it's not fun.

I ordered Hyrule Historia last night so should be turning up today! Good old Prime.

Gulftastic

I played LTTP to bits back in the day. I remember getting quite emotional when I completed it. It's still the best game I've ever played. I also really enjoyed The Minish Cap.

Kelvin

Quote from: Shay Chaise on February 05, 2017, 09:31:50 AM
Updates:

There's a Zelda sale on the eShop at the moment so I got all the old handheld single player ones, except Minish Cap which doesn't seem to be there. I've also put quite a lot more time into some of these.

I've really been tempted to buy the original Zelda for NES, but since I'm getting the switch in a month, I can't really justify spending the money on Wii U anymore. Since Breath of the Wild is so heavily influenced by the original, though, I really want to play them close together. 

QuoteI started Link Between Worlds and was really enjoying it an hour in, so I decided I'd best go back to Link to the Past lest I destroy the opportunity to enjoy both. I've only just got the Pegasus Boots but I'm buzzing off it so far. Great chunky look and feel and lots of little secrets which feel like secrets, even though the map is pretty compact. It's a beautifully designed little thing and I can see the first elements of the formula they've been building on ever since.

I replayed it again a few months ago. Like Super Mario World, its a game that has aged better than almost any 3D game ever made. Graphically and on a gameplay level it's timeless.   

QuoteI've also played about fifteen or twenty hours of Wind Waker HD and I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I suppose the main issue is that it does seem quite obtuse and I don't always know where to go. I've just got the Master Sword and can't remember what it told me to do next. I've lost impetus again. Maybe I'm too conditioned by gaming these days which is more explicit about your options with quest tabs and map markers and so on. Then again, my favourite game is Dark Souls. Ehh, it's just a bit stuck between one thing and another. I accept this is my fault and I could probably see a fortune teller or something but I can't remember where anything is. I feel absolutely no sense of place or geographical awareness of anywhere on the map. The sea is too big, even with the fast sail. I also don't want to fight stuff en route to make it more interesting, I just don't want to sail at all, it's not fun.

If you do want to quickly work out what you're meant to do, just speak to the boat and he'll remind you of where to go next. I suspect that if you've just got the Master Sword, you need to head to one of the two temples (which I think should be marked on your map with a little vortex thing).

Kelvin

Actually, to access the two temples you need to obtain a couple of objects first. If you
Spoiler alert
feed and speak to the fish swimming around the temples, they'll tell you where to find the two items you need. 
[close]

ASFTSN

The ending of Link's Awakening still makes me want to cry when I think about it.

Kelvin

Almost every modern Zelda game has a great ending, actually. The promise of something new and optimistic just around the corner, but tinged with something lost: all the 3D games, bar maybe Skyward Sword, contain that mixture of light and shade. Windwaker is definitely my favourite, though. Everything about that finale is brilliant.

I suppose it helps that Zelda is one of the few franchises that has an inbuilt reason to start over each time and keep the stories and characters fresh. Having the characters reincarnate in different eras means you get to build on the lore, but tell self-contained stories, without needing to set up future games every time. In fact, the different timelines give them even more freedom to pick and choose what elements they keep and which they abandon. I'm always impressed by how cleverly the Hyrule Historia retroactively fits them all altogether.