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OJ: Made in America

Started by George Oscar Bluth II, February 25, 2017, 11:36:03 AM

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George Oscar Bluth II

With literally no fanfare, as far as I can tell, OJ: Made in America has appeared on the iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04st1yv/oj-made-in-america-part-1

It's a 7 hour long monster of a thing about the OJ Simpson case, race in America, policing in LA, celebrity culture, the US justice system, 24 hour media, professional sport and much more. It's an incredible piece of work, here spread over three parts and I cannot recommend it more highly.

Think of it as a much better companion piece to OJ Simpson: An American Crime Story.

I believe they cut the whole thing together and showed it theatrically somewhere so it could be Oscar nominated. It should run away with it.

hewantstolurkatad

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on February 25, 2017, 11:36:03 AM
I believe they cut the whole thing together and showed it theatrically somewhere so it could be Oscar nominated. It should run away with it.
It really shouldn't be nominated, TV series documentaries are a totally different beast operating to totally different goals with a totally different level of funding. That whole stunt just seemed really tacky to me.



This one was talked about elsewhere here, can't remember what everyone else thought but I thought the first episode or two were fantastic and really illuminating, the rest were fairly short on anything new or interesting.

biggytitbo

Yes this is the ESPN one repackaged right?

I did my usual thing of pointing out the awkward truth that OJ didn't actually commit the crimes, which slightly puts a dampener on the whole 8 hour epic thing. It's an intermittently interesting enough film but starting from that false premise its fundamentally faulty as fact.

Garam


biggytitbo

^ Well OJ is innocent if you only base your conclusions on the evidence rather than the media fantasy.

Just answer this simple question. Ron Goldman, a younger, fitter man than OJ who had a black belt in karate, put up a fierce defense of his life, his body was covered in cuts, bruises and defense wounds, his knuckles battered by his many attempts to fight off his assailant.

The day after the murder OJ Simpson was examined by a police doctor, who testified at the trial and showed close up photos of the examination. OJ had no injuries other than the infamous small cut on his finger. That's not possible and therefore OJ didn't murder Goldman.

As for the cut, an hour or so after the murders OJ was stopped by fans and he stood and signed several autographs for them - he had no cuts, bandages or any other visible injuries. Again, this came out at the trial itself.

Furthermore, the bloody glove the killer supposedly wore had no cut in it, so the cut on his hand never happened during the murder even if he did it.

Garam


biggytitbo

Well OJ is a nut isnt he, but he also didn't write that book it was ghost written by Pablo Fenjves as part of some elaborate legal bargaining over the civil case.

Staying just with facts - OJ couldn't have committed the murders.

Steven

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 02:53:14 PM
Staying just with facts - OJ couldn't have committed the murders.

He definitely could have, just he didn't do it alone.. the pathologist said the cuts to his finger were done by fingernails, as if he had someone in a choke-hole, which would be consistant with grabbing someone from the back before cutting their throat as happened with Nicole.. which also means he isn't going to get much blood on him. They found lots of blood belonging to OJ, Nicole and Goldman at the crime scene, in his bronco and at OJ's house. He has to be involved in some way or that's a pretty elaborate job of police planting evidence. His co-conspiritor (most likely his son) could have been the one handling Goldman while OJ went for Nicole, they both had no alibi but his son was never checked by anybody for injuries in the days following.

The other possibility is the crime was gang-related connected to Goldman's drug-dealing, but the problem with that is all the blood evidence linking back to OJ.

biggytitbo

It's less of a problem when you know Fuhrman and another LA detective, both homicidal racists who boasted about murdering people and planting evidence, had free reign of the crime scene with vials of OJ, Nicole and Ron's blood in their pocket.

I agree there was more than one murderer, the original autopsy report said 2 knives had been used, but if OJ did either of the murders he was magic, since everyone agrees he must have been covered in blood yet somehow managed to only deposit less than 1 drop of blood in the Bronco (a bit less than the amount missing from the vial), and the white carpeting in his house didn't have a single trace of blood on it, indicating OJ had the ability to levitate up his stairs. Nor was any blood ever found in the sinks or drains at his house, or on towels etc that might indicate a clean up.

I think it was drug related, everyone in this story was involved in the drugs underworld, Nicole and OJ were coke fiends, Goldman had this fat criminal file and we know 2 of his friends - Michael Nigg and Brett Cantor were also brutally murdered around the same time (the latter in the exact same fashion. Then there's OJs old pal Casimir Sucharski, who was once busted in a drug sting by the FBI (that was actually targeting OJ for allegedly dealing coke to NFL players) was also brutally murdered shortly after.

And nobody ever mentions that Fred Goldman was married to a woman called Patti Glass either, the ex-wife of Marvin Glass, a notorious Chicago drug dealer.

DrGreggles

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 01:28:44 PM
Ron Goldman, a younger, fitter man than OJ who had a black belt in karate, put up a fierce defense of his life, his body was covered in cuts, bruises and defense wounds, his knuckles battered by his many attempts to fight off his assailant.

Simpson, even at 47, was a big old unit and still in decent shape.
Oh, and was probably coked off his tits and wielding a big knife.

Makes sense to me that Goldman fought back but ultimately died from Simpson's attack.

Steven

It's handy the drug cartel magically made OJ and his son lose all sense of an alibi during the time-frame of the murder. OJ wasn't at home like he said he was and cellphone records show he was driving around in his Bronco around the time of the murder, not to mention the limo driver receiving no response from the house for over 20 minutes until a shadowy figure of OJs size and description entered from elsewhere and he then saw a similar figure getting changed in an upstairs window before OJ answered the intercom. OJ said he was sleeping and couldn't explain the various cuts and abrations on his body at his arrest, conjuring up various excuses after the fact which were found not to match up.

The cops could have planted blood evidence, but they must have been doing it with a super-soaker in full view of their peers as there was blood evidence everywhere, it would be a pretty elaborate and obvious framing job if that was the case, someone would have noticed, at least you'd hope.

OJ didn't ask any questions about the manner of Nicole's death, or even information about the wellbeing of his kids when informed she had been murdered. There's the absurdity of the live Bronco chase.. Then after OJ's arrest, police find in his possession a passport, a gun, a fake mustache and a beard, and fresh changes of underwear in the Bronco.

Yeah of course there's drugs mixed in with all this, but I doubt was the motive of the murder, letting Goldman put up that much of a fight is very sloppy work if this was a hired hit, they'd at least have a gun as backup which would have been employed. Not to mention Nicole's constant protestations OJ was going to kill her and knew she had a phobia about knives. The scene matches up with a crime of passion, Goldman just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, conversely to OJ who's in all the right places at the right time for him to have done it.

biggytitbo

Simpson wasn't in great shape, he had arthritis and was suffering from the consequences of years of punishing his body in NFL.


Either way, unless he was Superman he would have sustained injuries from the ferocious fight to the death of Ron Goldman, but didn't, therefore he could not have been the killer.

DrGreggles

He was still a big guy.
More specifically, he was a big guy with a knife.
Who killed his ex and her fella.

Steven

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 04:05:14 PM
Either way, unless he was Superman he would have sustained injuries from the ferocious fight to the death of Ron Goldman, but didn't, therefore he could not have been the killer.

I was the one who made this point on here in the first place which now you've nicked like a load of other things, can you not compute OJ may have not done it alone? They're not mutuall exclusive ideas, you see?

biggytitbo

Quote from: Steven on February 25, 2017, 04:02:35 PM
It's handy the drug cartel magically made OJ and his son lose all sense of an alibi during the time-frame of the murder. OJ wasn't at home like he said he was and cellphone records show he was driving around in his Bronco around the time of the murder, not to mention the limo driver receiving no response from the house for over 20 minutes until a shadowy figure of OJs size and description entered from elsewhere and he then saw a similar figure getting changed in an upstairs window before OJ answered the intercom. OJ said he was sleeping and couldn't explain the various cuts and abrations on his body at his arrest, conjuring up various excuses after the fact which were found not to match up.

OJ didn't ask any questions about the manner of Nicole's death, or even information about the wellbeing of his kids when informed. There's the absurdity of the live Bronco chase.. Then after OJ's arrest, police find in his possession a passport, a gun, a fake mustache and a beard, and fresh changes of underwear in the Bronco.

Yeah of course there's drugs mixed in with all this, but I doubt was the motive of the murder, letting Goldman put up that much of a fight is very sloppy work if this was a hired hit, they'd at least have a gun as backup which would have been employed. Not to mention Nicole's constant protestations OJ was going to kill her and knew she had a phobia about knives.


Nicole was talking to her mother at 11:00pm when OJ was on the way to the airport and had a cast iron alibi. Of course this is disputed, but that's what both the mother and father reported and what is supported by the timeline of how long it took them to drive from the mezzaluna back to their home. Weirdly they've resisted to this day to release the actual phone records, so we'll never know for sure. But even the disputed revised timeline makes it incredibly tight for OJ to have nearly decaptitsted his ex wife and fight Ron Goldman to death then appear entirely normal and completly cleaned up and injury free less than an hour later to catch his flight.


I've written before about OJs son and it's a possibility but the same problems with injuries and clean up apply to him aswell.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Steven on February 25, 2017, 04:16:19 PM
I was the one who made this point on here in the first place which now you've nicked like a load of other things, can you not compute OJ may have not done it alone? They're not mutuall exclusive ideas, you see?

Well you did and said everything first didn't you, althogh in this case I heard the thing about OJs injuries in the BBC documentary broadcast in 2001, at least 10 years before I even knew you existed.

Steven

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 04:24:47 PM
I've written before about OJs son and it's a possibility but the same problems with injuries and clean up apply to him aswell.

You've still not computed what I've said about OJ AND HIS SON possibly being the attackers? Why is it one or the other with you?

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 04:27:00 PM
Well you did and said everything first didn't you, althogh in this case I heard the thing about OJs injuries in the BBC documentary broadcast in 2001, at least 10 years before I even knew you existed.

Yes, because wasn't it a major point of the court case that OJ didn't have enough injuries to warrant him being the killer? That's obvious. What I mean in some thread I made a point there'd have to be two people at the scene to be able to take care of Goldman and Nicole and clean it up and posited possibly OJ and his son which you've put in an article now. Also in the same article you've put that OJ was free of any mark of injury other than the cut on his finger which isn't true, he was covered in smaller cuts and abrasions, just nothing as deep as the finger cut. I wouldn't expect him to be covered in deep cuts if he only had to dispatch Nicole with a knife from behind.. Goldman I imagine would pose trouble for one attacker, but while he's concentrating on attacks from one assailant or held in a struggle, it wouldn't be hard for another to deal a fatal blow. I suspect it may have been Jason who mainly handled the brunt of Goldman's defense. Goldman was trying to defend himself from a knife so there wouldn't be many visual marks to say an attackers face because the majority of his concentration would be on grabbing or kicking a knife out of someone's hand..

biggytitbo

I agree that there must be more than 1 person involved in the murders, I just don't think OJ was one of them. The timelines, the lack of injuries and the magic cleanup attest against it. I don't doubt OJ has some complicity somewhere though, but exactly what I'm not sure.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on February 25, 2017, 11:36:03 AM
With literally no fanfare, as far as I can tell, OJ: Made in America has appeared on the iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04st1yv/oj-made-in-america-part-1

Probably because I made a thread for it when it first came out http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,54108.msg2850065.html#msg2850065

Can't be waiting around for the UK to pick it up in this day and age.

biggytitbo

Definitely worth repeating my Menzies Campbell fact, which is true!

DrGreggles

Did he kill his wife as well?

biggytitbo

He killed OJ in a 100m race in 1967.

Bad Ambassador

All this is a coded confession. Biggy done killed them people and blamed it ppb an innocent blackman.

mr. logic

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 04:24:47 PM
Nicole was talking to her mother at 11:00pm when OJ was on the way to the airport and had a cast iron alibi. Of course this is disputed, but that's what both the mother and father reported and what is supported by the timeline of how long it took them to drive from the mezzaluna back to their home. Weirdly they've resisted to this day to release the actual phone records, so we'll never know for sure. But even the disputed revised timeline makes it incredibly tight for OJ to have nearly decaptitsted his ex wife and fight Ron Goldman to death then appear entirely normal and completly cleaned up and injury free less than an hour later to catch his flight.

I don't understand why her mother would lie?  If she was talking to Nicole at a time that makes Simpson murdering her impossible, then she wouldn't maintain his guilt would she?  She would want the real killer caught. 

Also- if we're not allowed to use his bizarre behavior after the murder as a justification for his guilt, I hardly think it's fair that you use his calm demeanor at the airport as proof of anything.  That could have been quite easily faked.  Or perhaps he went into some trance or something, and it wasn't until the slow chase that the magnitude of it all dawned on him.

biggytitbo

I, like you, don't know what she would of wouldn't do, or what she does and doesn't know, so it's a moot point.



Again, the Bronco chase, we don't really know what's going on here, but we do know that in the bronco with OJ was a man named Al Cowlings, and Al Cowlings used to be mafia drug smuggler Joey Ippolito's bodyguard and chauffeur. Perhaps his job there was to lay it on the line for OJ about the consequences if he doesn't turn himself in, after all an improbably large number of people associated with Ron, Nicole and OJ were all brutally murdered in still unsolved cases around the same time. A simple threat on his kids life may have sufficed.

mr. logic

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 26, 2017, 09:20:35 AM
I, like you, don't know what she would of wouldn't do, or what she does and doesn't know, so it's a moot point.

I think it's safe to assume she would want the real killer of her daughter found.  I can't think of a single reason she wouldn't.

The only possibility is, I suppose, she was after financial gain.  But the Browns were not the family that pursued the civil lawsuit (even though they were named on it) and they wanted nothing to do with the book he wrote either. 

Plus it was their daughter and she was murdered.  Does your mind not baulk at the possibility that, knowing of his complete innocence, they sat through an entire trial and media circus, all the while maintaining his guilt? 

I think one of the reasons this is such a compelling story is that, for all the apparent obviousness of his having done it, there's some hard to answer questions pertaining to his guilt.  The timeline, though, is not one of them.

biggytitbo

I don't think its safe to assume that. We don't know what she really thinks anyway, but if she's even aware of the timeline problem at all (which is an assumption - in my years of reading about the JFK case there are countless of instances of people directly involved not knowing basic facts about the case, or even evidence involving them) she may well also realise that she'd be opening a very nasty and very dangerous pandora's box if she pursued that path. Unlike the Goldman's, the Browns have been very quiet the last 20 years and have only given a handful of interviews.

But this is deep in speculation, which we don't need to do because we have facts to work with and facts are better than speculation.

We know Nicole's parents left the Mezzaluna between 8:30 and 9:00pm and we know they both initially said[nb]as they are quoted in the autopsy report[/nb], before the timeline became a problem, that Juditha phoned Nicole at 11:00pm. That timeline is fine, it's a 70 mile drive and even though it includes congested highways and major roadworks where the average traffic speed was less than 30mph, it still gives them 2 hours or so to do it.

But when that timeline later exonerated OJ, because he was seen by dozens of witnesses on the way to the airport, they had to revise the time of the phonecall back to 9:37pm. T.H. Johnson has shown this to be impossible, he got the traffic data for the night of the murder and between 8-9pm the congestion was so bad the traffic was in virtual gridlock for large stretches of the journey. Since they would have had to go at an average speed of about 70mph to get home in time for 9:37, and since at least part of the journey was a lot less than 30mph, that requires them making other parts of the journey in excess of 100mph. Seems a bit of a stretch that an elderly couple with two grandchildren in the back of the car would be careening down busy freeways at 100mph doesn't it?

mothman

So is this the same five-part version that was on BT Sport last summer? I recorded that at the time and have only just stated watching it (with adverts each part is two hours long).

gatchamandave

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 25, 2017, 04:05:14 PM
Simpson wasn't in great shape, he had arthritis and was suffering from the consequences of years of punishing his body in NFL.


Either way, unless he was Superman he would have sustained injuries from the ferocious fight to the death of Ron Goldman, but didn't, therefore he could not have been the killer.

...of Ron Goldman ?

Well, it has won the best documentary Oscar.