OJ: Made in America

[touchingcloth]

I enjoyed this, but a little way in I started to suspect that the whole affair might have been made up of whole cloth and have literally zero basis in reality, because surely, surely, Tom Lange isn't a real LAPD officer, but is actually a writer's idea of what an oafish, bumbling police officer should look, act and sound like?

Look at him!









He's like something cooked up by Iannucci that failed to make a broadcast cut of Veep for reasons of plausibility. "We all love you, O.J., all of us!" Fuck's sake. I'm watching the final part this evening, and if Lange pops up chowing down on a bag of doughnuts I'm going to boot my telly out the window.

[Bad Ambassador]

He was still a big guy.
More specifically, he was a big guy with a knife.
Who killed his ex and her fella.

HAIKU

[biggytitbo]

I took the liberty of checking those timings on the drive back to Nicole Brown's parent's house from the Mezzaluna and it really is at least 90 mins, and that means OJ is innocent barring some warp in the fabric of space and time - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/11770+San+Vicente+Blvd,+Los+Angeles,+CA+90049,+USA/222+Monarch+Bay+Drive,+Dana+Point,+CA,+United+States/@33.7708005,-118.3500273,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x80c2bca0a76a931b:0xdf4020f44578f44a!2m2!1d-118.4679333!2d34.0528364!1m5!1m1!1s0x80dcf00467970b2b:0xfa4ddfddfb045db7!2m2!1d-117.729142!2d33.4881!3e0


Even if the earliest departure time from the mezzaluna of 8:30 is accepted it still leaves them only 67 minutes to do a 90 minute drive and that's on a night where parts of the journey the traffic was down to less than 30mph due to congestion and roadworks.

[gatchamandave]

Fuxxake Biggy, watch the thing. Even OJ thinks OJ did it.

[mr. logic]

I took the liberty of checking those timings on the drive back to Nicole Brown's parent's house from the Mezzaluna and it really is at least 90 mins, and that means OJ is innocent barring some warp in the fabric of space and time - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/11770+San+Vicente+Blvd,+Los+Angeles,+CA+90049,+USA/222+Monarch+Bay+Drive,+Dana+Point,+CA,+United+States/@33.7708005,-118.3500273,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x80c2bca0a76a931b:0xdf4020f44578f44a!2m2!1d-118.4679333!2d34.0528364!1m5!1m1!1s0x80dcf00467970b2b:0xfa4ddfddfb045db7!2m2!1d-117.729142!2d33.4881!3e0


Even if the earliest departure time from the mezzaluna of 8:30 is accepted it still leaves them only 67 minutes to do a 90 minute drive and that's on a night where parts of the journey the traffic was down to less than 30mph due to congestion and roadworks.

What timeline are you contradicting though?  How far was his home from hers?  Couldn't he have killed them at, say, 10,30ish rather than the 10.15 the prosecution claimed?

(Should add here that you have a remarkable recall for the details on these types of stories and I always enjoy your posts.  I'm asking the above question genuinely, not being snarky.)

[biggytitbo]

What timeline are you contradicting though?  How far was his home from hers?  Couldn't he have killed them at, say, 10,30ish rather than the 10.15 the prosecution claimed?

(Should add here that you have a remarkable recall for the details on these types of stories and I always enjoy your posts.  I'm asking the above question genuinely, not being snarky.)

No this is the phone-call from Nicole's mother to Nicole. The initial story was this was at 11:00pm, and obviously Nicole was still alive as they spoke with each other. OJ was spotted by dozens of witnesses on his way to LAX airport at this time, so could not have murdered her.

When it became obvious this exonerated OJ, the phone calls time was pushed back to 9:37pm. The problem with that is  Nicole's parents left the Mezzaluna, 70 miles away from their home between 8:30 and 9:00, probably 8:45-50. This makes the 9:37pm call where OJ could be the murderer impossible, but the original 11:00pm call where he couldnt be the murderer possible.


Weirdly the actual phone records have never been made public, just the prosecution said they showed 9:37pm and everyone accepted it, despite the obvious impossibility of the timings.

[biggytitbo]

Fuxxake Biggy, watch the thing. Even OJ thinks OJ did it.

Ive already seen it, and no he doesnt.

[mr. logic]

When it became obvious this exonerated OJ, the phone calls time was pushed back to 9:37pm. The problem with that is  Nicole's parents left the Mezzaluna, 70 miles away from their home between 8:30 and 9:00, probably 8:45-50. This makes the 9:37pm call where OJ could be the murderer impossible, but the original 11:00pm call where he couldnt be the murderer possible.

But is there not a third option:  The phone call is made after 9.37 but before 11.00?  That's what I meant.  If she rings her mother at 10.15, say, that gives the Browns time to get back from the restaurant, and time for OJ to kill her before being in the limo at 11.05.  Nicole and his homes were within minutes of one another weren't they?

That's what I meant by the prosecution's timeline being a fuck-up.  Also, on this point, and I know you don't like OJ's post trial conduct being discussed, but given the amount he has talked about the evidence don't you think it's remarkable he's never made anything of this?  His team at the trial didn't either, as far as I'm aware.

[checkoutgirl]

The first two episodes of this show that anyone who thinks OJ didn't murder his wife is unbelievably stupid. Multiple calls to the police by Nichole where she sounds in fear of her life. Multiple photos of Nichole after being battered by that monster. Loads of witness accounts of  OJ being jealous, controlling, violent, manipulative, sociopathic, selfish, paranoid, charming, charismatic and amazingly ambitious. All the hallmarks of a murderer.

All this shite nitpicking about the tiny minutiae of accounts of what happened the night the murders happened. Madness. The bigger picture is he was clearly a psychopath who was more than capable of murder and was extremely jealous of his wife while fucking anything that moves behind her back.

[biggytitbo]

But is there not a third option:  The phone call is made after 9.37 but before 11.00?  That's what I meant.  If she rings her mother at 10.15, say, that gives the Browns time to get back from the restaurant, and time for OJ to kill her before being in the limo at 11.05.  Nicole and his homes were within minutes of one another weren't they?

Sure, but the prosecution said it was 9:37pm, they even submitted a cropped photo on a pasteboard of that bit of the bill. Nobody to this day has ever seen the actual  phone bill for the night though, so it remains an unanswerable question.

Also, on this point, and I know you don't like OJ's post trial conduct being discussed, but given the amount he has talked about the evidence don't you think it's remarkable he's never made anything of this?  His team at the trial didn't either, as far as I'm aware.

Except the numerous times he tried to get the phone company to release the records and they didnt? - http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/26/local/me-2779


To reiterate, the actual phone records which unequivocally prove whether OJ Simpson is a murderer or not have never been made public.

[mr. logic]

Lots was made at the trial of the line, 'Just because somebody abuses a person'- as they were forced to admit OJ abused Nicole- 'doesn't mean they then murder the person.' 

They had lots of statistics backing up this point and I suppose on the surface it's a fair one.  I do wonder how the stats are altered in the cases of abused people being, em, murdered though.

[biggytitbo]

OJ Simpson undoubtedly hit his wife on one occasion and that makes him a scumbag, but I'm far less sure about the whole narrative of him been a serial abuser. I think it was the '93 where she was caught on a police tape saying that OJ hadnt hit her in 4 years and there's also this, although I don;t think its been publically released yet - https://porkinspolicyreview.com/2016/12/08/ppr-bonus-podcast-episode-2-nicole-simpson-911-call-revisited-with-brian-heiss/

For the subscriber only bonus podcast we are joined by return guest Brian Heiss to discuss his recent work on Nicole Simpson's infamous 911 call from October 25th, 1993. This call has become a legend in the OJ saga; being portrayed for the last 22 years as definitive proof that OJ was in indeed a violent psychopath. For the last 22 years only a partial transcript and two and half minute audio version has been publicly available. For the first time ever Brian has provided the full 13 minutes of the 911 call in a digitally remastered version. Brian and I begin by discussing the glaring omissions in the transcript. We discuss the numerous references to Nicole's drug use by OJ through out the 911 call. Brian and I talk about the general tone of the call. While the media has portrayed this as OJ freaking out on Nicole in a jealous rage, when listening to the whole call you can see that OJ sounds fed up with Nicole's dangerous behavior. We talk about OJ's anger over Nicole performing oral sex on Keith Zlomsowitch while their kids are sleeping upstairs. How OJ warns her in the call about Keith's alleged drug dealing and connection to Hollywood madame Heidi Fleiss. Brian and I also talk about how this changes not only the narrative of their tumultuous relationship, but how this might go towards explaining what transpired on June 12, 1994.

[biggytitbo]

The first two episodes of this show that anyone who thinks OJ didn't murder his wife is unbelievably stupid. Multiple calls to the police by Nichole where she sounds in fear of her life. Multiple photos of Nichole after being battered by that monster. Loads of witness accounts of  OJ being jealous, controlling, violent, manipulative, sociopathic, selfish, paranoid, charming, charismatic and amazingly ambitious. All the hallmarks of a murderer.

All this shite nitpicking about the tiny minutiae of accounts of what happened the night the murders happened. Madness. The bigger picture is he was clearly a psychopath who was more than capable of murder and was extremely jealous of his wife while fucking anything that moves behind her back.

That's the picture when you only get your information from one side. I mean OJ could be Hitler but you'd still have to believe he was also magic to think he was the murderer.

[mr. logic]

OJ Simpson undoubtedly hit his wife on one occasion and that makes him a scumbag, but I'm far less sure about the whole narrative of him been a serial abuser. I think it was the '93 where she was caught on a police tape saying that OJ hadnt hit her in 4 years and there's also this, although I don;t think its been publically released yet - https://porkinspolicyreview.com/2016/12/08/ppr-bonus-podcast-episode-2-nicole-simpson-911-call-revisited-with-brian-heiss/

Don't really see that changing much.  So he was annoyed about her using drugs and having sex with other men?  Well, yeah, that's the point isn't it?

I don't doubt he spoke calmly to the cops because that, as checkoutgirl said, is something that he was scarily adept at- charming people.  Indeed didn't he respond to the blow job by first shaking the hand of the recipient?  This could be used as evidence that he was over Nicole, but seems more likely the result of a calculated, cold, sociopathic mind letting the anger fester.

[mr. logic]

Imagine Innocent OJ's luck though.  Imagine a scenario where an ex of yours is murdered.  You don't have an alibi.  If you had been on time for your lift earlier that evening, you would have an alibi, but you weren't, you were chipping golf balls, or taking a shower, or asleep. 

[gatchamandave]

Imagine Innocent OJ's luck though.  Imagine a scenario where an ex of yours is murdered.  You don't have an alibi.  If you had been on time for your lift earlier that evening, you would have an alibi, but you weren't, you were chipping golf balls, or taking a shower, or asleep.

Quite. If he's innocent then he has, over the years, made a remarkably bad job of acting it.

Even worse than his performance n Capricorn One

[Steven]

Imagine Innocent OJ's luck though.  Imagine a scenario where an ex of yours is murdered.  You don't have an alibi.  If you had been on time for your lift earlier that evening, you would have an alibi, but you weren't, you were chipping golf balls, or taking a shower, or asleep.

A woman claimed to have seen OJ in the Bronco racing across town a few streets from Nicole's house just prior also, his headlights were turned off and he nearly crashed into her when running a red light and she got a good look and recognised who it was glaring at her. She wasn't allowed to testify about this because she sold the story to the press, which doesn't exactly mean the story is a false one. She quickly wrote down the license plate "3ZWZ788" — and it turned out she was only off by one letter. Simpson's plate was actually "3CWZ788."

Add to that the limo driver waited outside the house because OJ didn't respond to the intercom for 20 minutes, in fact he drove around the property several times, on the 3rd or 4th occassion suddely the white Bronco turns up parked outside the gates at an off-kilter angle. He then sees a large black man of OJ's description run into the property, the lights come on and then OJ finally answers the intercom.

There's also the loud bangs Kaelin heard which everyone presumes was OJ climbing over the fence and guest house at the back of the property, this is where the glove was found when it presumably fell from OJs pockets. It makes no sense for Mark Fuhrman to plant it there because at this point he doesn't know the context of it fitting all these elements, or in fact where on earth OJ was.

[mr. logic]

A fun fact about the limo driver's testimony is that the jury actually wanted bits of it read back to them before giving their verdict.  This could have been bad news for the defendant:  The driver was somebody who needed to be good with time as part of his job and had seen a 200lb man climbing the fence of the Simpson's residence in a great hurry. Simpson's team argued that it should not be a segment, it should be the entire thing.  Think it would have taken eight hours or so.  So the jury didn't bother.

[biggytitbo]

Imagine Innocent OJ's luck though.  Imagine a scenario where an ex of yours is murdered.  You don't have an alibi.  If you had been on time for your lift earlier that evening, you would have an alibi, but you weren't, you were chipping golf balls, or taking a shower, or asleep.

He's got an alibi, he was seen by dozens of people travelling to LAX airport.


You know OJ has an IQ in the 80s right? He's not a dunce but he's also a very stupid man who is quite clearly a bit nutty.


FACTS show him to be innocent, not your perceptions of him. Facts aren't subject to your perceptions of how much of a rotter someone is.


Look up the pictures of Ron Goldmans knuckles if you want more facts as to why OJ could not be the murderer.

[gatchamandave]

He's got an alibi, he was seen by dozens of people travelling to LAX airport.


You know OJ has an IQ in the 80s right? He's not a dunce but he's also a very stupid man who is quite clearly a bit nutty.


FACTS show him to be innocent, not your perceptions of him. Facts aren't subject to your perceptions of how much of a rotter someone is.


Look up the pictures of Ron Goldmans knuckles if you want more facts as to why OJ could not be the murderer.

...of Ron Goldman

[mr. logic]

He's got an alibi, he was seen by dozens of people travelling to LAX airport.


You know OJ has an IQ in the 80s right? He's not a dunce but he's also a very stupid man who is quite clearly a bit nutty.


FACTS show him to be innocent, not your perceptions of him. Facts aren't subject to your perceptions of how much of a rotter someone is.


Look up the pictures of Ron Goldmans knuckles if you want more facts as to why OJ could not be the murderer.

The limo driver rang on his door repeatedly at a time when the murders could have been happening and he wasn't answering.   If he were innocent, I suspect that would be a huge cause of lament and frustration.  It illustrates how unfortunate he would have to have been here if he didn't actually commit the murders.  Perhaps that's what frazzled him so much and made him give three separate stories explaining away the detail of his whereabouts.

[mr. logic]

...of Ron Goldman

In the book he has his mate with him doesn't he?

[imitationleather]

You know OJ has an IQ in the 80s right? He's not a dunce but he's also a very stupid man who is quite clearly a bit nutty.

Hang on, didn't you used to use OJ's IQ as evidence he wasn't unintelligent as, according to you, the 80s isn't that low and so he was easily capable of cooking up this whole scheme to cover for his son?

Or am I mixing this up with one of the other clearly mentally stunted murderers (possibly one of the West Memphis Three or the Making a Murderer kid) that you say are either definitely innocent or guilty when all evidence suggests the exact opposite?

[mr. logic]

I don't see what his IQ has to do with what I said anyway. 

[biggytitbo]

A woman claimed to have seen OJ in the Bronco racing across town a few streets from Nicole's house just prior also, his headlights were turned off and he nearly crashed into her when running a red light and she got a good look and recognised who it was glaring at her. She wasn't allowed to testify about this because she sold the story to the press, which doesn't exactly mean the story is a false one. She quickly wrote down the license plate "3ZWZ788" — and it turned out she was only off by one letter. Simpson's plate was actually "3CWZ788."

Jill shivery turned out to be a fantasist who claimed to have written the Michael Keaton film My Life, When did she first mention the number plate? After she'd seen the bronco chase on TV? She also says his happened at 10:50, which gives OJ 10 minutes to get home, forensically clean up leaving not a drop of blood anywhere on the white carpet in his house Ron in any of the drains and get ready to set off to the airport at 11:00, where he was relaxed and chatty, stopping to sign autographs with fans. By the way, one guy on the plane testified how he spent a while staring at OJs hands on the plane because he wanted to see if he had a Super Bowl ring. The pilot also popped out at one point and got OJ to sign the flight logs. OJ had no injuries, just like he had no injuries in photos taken the next day and in close up police photos of his body. Take a look at Ron Goldmans knuckles and work out how his is possible.

I still concede he might be have been there or involved, but even that looks very uncertain in the light of the impossible 9:37 call.

[biggytitbo]

I don't see what his IQ has to do with what I said anyway.

You're overly fixated on what OJ says and does, I'm saying he's such a nut and a thicko that that's pointless. Well it's pointless when we have facts to work with rather than our perceptions of what we think 'dead behind the eyes'[nb]actual comment from guardian commentator[/nb] Simpson would or wouldn't have done.

[gatchamandave]

In the book he has his mate with him doesn't he?

As he does in the documentary, suggesting himself that he did not act alone.

[mr. logic]

You're overly fixated on what OJ says and does, I'm saying he's a nut and a thicko that that's pointless. Well it's pointless when we have facts to work with rather than our perceptions of what we think 'dead behind the eyes'[nb]axtual comment from guardian commentator[/nb] Simpson would or wouldn't have done.

I was pointing out that not opening the door when it repeatedly rang would be, in the context of the innocence that you're suggesting, a spectacular bit of bad luck. 

[biggytitbo]

As bad luck as having a genocidal racist who boasted about planting evidence and lied about knowing Nicole before the murder investigate your case? Bad luck to have people like Fuhrman and Vanadder walking around the crime scene with undocumented vials of your and the victim's blood?

[Steven]

Jill shivery turned out to be a fantasist who claimed to have written the Michael Keaton film My Life, When did she first mention the number plate? After she'd seen the bronco chase on TV?

It doesn't matter whether she puts tinfoil hats on her head and dances the fandango, or whether she sold her story to the press for that matter, her testimony has to be considered and how did she tie it in with the perfect time for OJ to be between both events? Also, if she can mark down a license plate number from a car that almost side-swiped her, I think that's easier than trying to make it out from grainy live footage from a police helicopter. Good look noting down a license plate number from that footage. You can't see it.

She also says his happened at 10:50, which gives OJ 10 minutes to get home, forensically clean up leaving not a drop of blood anywhere on the white carpet in his house Ron in any of the drains and get ready to set off to the airport at 11:00, where he was relaxed and chatty, stopping to sign autographs with fans. By the way, one guy on the plane testified how he spent a while staring at OJs hands on the plane because he wanted to see if he had a Super Bowl ring. The pilot also popped out at one point and got OJ to sign the flight logs.

He'd obviously planned it all so he could catch his flight back in the nick of time to have a plausible alibi, OJ doesn't have to be a genius to get away with murder, in fact he didn't as he ended up in court. It doesn't matter where there wasn't blood, does it? How on earth do you know how much blood OJ would have had on him, you don't, what matters is there was blood.. his blood found in and around Nicole's house, in his Bronco, from the Bronco to his house, from the driveway to his foyer, on his socks, in his shower, in his sink, belonging to OJ and Nicole and blood from Ron Goldman found on the glove at the back where Kaelin heard someone climbing over the fence.

OJ had no injuries, just like he had no injuries in photos taken the next day and in close up police photos of his body. Take a look at Ron Goldmans knuckles and work out how his is possible.

As I've said repeatedly, perhaps he didn't do it alone? You keep repeating an invalid argument like an automaton.