Manchester Arena incident

[Hangthebuggers]

Manchester Evening News is raising money for families of those killed and injured. Not quite sure of the logistics of how it is distributed: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester

Eight year old girl still missing after the terrorist attack: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/eight-year-girl-still-missing-13078142

Sad to say she died.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/8-year-old-confirmed-dead-manchester-attack-ariana-grande-concert/

[MoonDust]

Meanwhile ISIS call the victims in Manchester "Crusaders". Yeah, frightened 8 year olds and teenage girls are "crusaders" against ISIS.

Fucking cunts.

I hope this string of attacks actually damages ISIS's image rather than helps them. Surely, surely, there must be ISIS sympethisers out there who think twice when things like this happen. Can only be a good thing, of course baring in mind it'd be better if they had no followers at all, but followers turning away from them might show they are indeed losing support and ground.

Haven't loads of foreign ISIS fighers in Iraq and Syria defected in the past few months because they realised (unfortunately a tad too late) how much of a shitshow ISIS are?

[Pdine]

Have you read the article?

On 9/11, the day after the twin towers had come down Seamus Milne filed his piece claiming that "the Americans are once again reaping a dragons' teeth harvest they themselves sowed",

He's referring specifically to the resources the US put into developing opposition to the USSR in Afghanistan, including Al Qaeda. Your partial quote implies a much vaguer scope for the comment.

he criticised the victims for lacking "any glimmer of recognition"

You are only correct if you mean by 'victims' the whole US population...

(how would he know)

He is writing a piece on general US reaction 'From the president to passersby on the streets'. So it's fairly clear he's writing about what Bush said and what he had heard on from average Americans in those two days. Your monstering is getting lazier.

[Quincey]

Sad to say she died.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/8-year-old-confirmed-dead-manchester-attack-ariana-grande-concert/

Shit, sorry, I didn't see the Telegraph story. Apologies everyone.

An eight year old murdered. Fuck. No cause is worth killing innocent people over.

[billtheburger]

As easy as it is to think we are, we're actually not fucked. The response from locals in Manchester - the cab drivers offering free rides home, hotels offering free shelter for children and victims, residents offering their houses/flats to victims, the homeless man running towards the carnage rather than away to help people who were probably ignoring him and not giving him change - shows we're not fucked at all. For every sick cunt who carries out these attacks there are hundreds more people out there doing good things and looking out for their fellow human.

In addition Give Blood have had to ask people to stop donating blood.
You said hundreds; it's more like thousands of great bunches of lads.

[Blue Jam]

As easy as it is to think we are, we're actually not fucked. The response from locals in Manchester - the cab drivers offering free rides home, hotels offering free shelter for children and victims, residents offering their houses/flats to victims, the homeless man running towards the carnage rather than away to help people who were probably ignoring him and not giving him change - shows we're not fucked at all. For every sick cunt who carries out these attacks there are hundreds more people out there doing good things and looking out for their fellow human.

Thanks for posting that MoonDust- I just worry that all these decent people are outnumbered by emboldened bigots- it certainly feels that way at times, maybe the bigots are just baying a bit louder.

A helpful article from BBC Newsround, aimed at children who may be affected by bad things in the news, is being shared on Twitter now. I thought I might share it here:

Advice if you're upset by the news

It's important to remember that upsetting stories are in the news because they are rare - they don't happen very often.

Yes, I think I've been getting a bit of Big Bad World Syndrome here.

[pancreas]

I hope this string of attacks actually damages ISIS's image rather than helps them. Surely, surely, there must be ISIS sympethisers out there who think twice when things like this happen. Can only be a good thing, of course baring in mind it'd be better if they had no followers at all, but followers turning away from them might show they are indeed losing support and ground.

In fact Al Qaida has even denounced ISIS in the past. AQ seemingly positioning themselves as the moderate extremists, vs ISIS's extreme extremism.

[billtheburger]

ISIS tried claiming responsibility for the Westminster bridge murderer, too, despite having no connection to him.

[MoonDust]

In fact Al Qaida has even denounced ISIS in the past. AQ seemingly positioning themselves as the moderate extremists, vs ISIS's extreme extremism.

Well that's how ISIS started right? They were a group in al-Qaida in Iraq who went against the leadership for being too extreme, so the AQ leadership expelled them. The expelled group later turned into ISIS.

[biggytitbo]

If the US don't have a substantial hand in ISIS, just like they had a substantial hand in Al Qaeda, I'd be stunned. The big difference with ISIS, of course, is they don't have any kind of rational political aim, something we could theoretically negotiate against however objectionable it may seem.


This is good - having an enemy which is simply pure evil and cannot ever be reasoned with is the absolute best thing for arms sales and more invasions.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

The ISIS statement is flagrantly inaccurate when it comes to the number of victims, and contains no information that wasn't already in the public domain for a long while before it was posted. I can see no reason to see it as anything other than opportunistic propaganda at this point.

[Pdine]

If the US don't have a substantial hand in ISIS, just like they had a substantial hand in Al Qaeda, I'd be stunned.

They did, don't you remember? Along with us they destroyed the mechanisms of the Iraqi state and disbanded the army.

[thenoise]

Corden

I hope he gets his belly out in tribute #legend

[MoonDust]

Thanks for posting that MoonDust- I just worry that all these decent people are outnumbered by emboldened bigots- it certainly feels that way at times, maybe the bigots are just baying a bit louder.

I think it is a case of a loud minority against a more silent majority. Keep the faith, however horrible the world seems there are plenty of good people out there :)

[biggytitbo]

They did, don't you remember? Along with us they destroyed the mechanisms of the Iraqi state and disbanded the army.

Yeah but beyond the mainstream narrative about them emerging from the chaos created by our invasions, which is clearly true, id be very surprised if US intelligence weren't in some fashion, even if via proxies, actually responsible for arming, funding, directing or at the very least infiltrating ISIS, certainly in its early stages.


Remember, going back to Corden, the old things about the IRA in the 80s was at their secret terrorist meetings there be more MI5 agents in the room than Irish terrorists.

[Hangthebuggers]

Multiple police raids going on now across the north west. Looks like the murderous piece of shit may have had connections or associates.

[biggytitbo]

Multiple police raids going on now across the north west. Looks like the murderous piece of shit may have had connections or associates.

Definitely via social media. They snapchatted their bombs to each other.

[Icehaven]

I knew any CAB thread about this incident was going to be largely political arguing and lots of shit throwing and fair enough, that's, er, lively debate, but just felt compelled to duck in and pour mawk all over it to say the last two times I've been to Manchester in the last 6 months or so was for CAB meets, and having an excuse to go to Manchester was half the appeal, along with meeting a number of you lot. Here ends my extremely clumsily put way of saying while something like this will always result in more of the circular repetitive abusive arguments, I'm just sad and angry for a lovely city, particularly one I've got such great recent memories of, mostly because of this place.

[Paul Calf]

Here's a question: what's more terrifying, random (and thankfully still extremely uncommon) violence by religious nutcases, or the things that an already extremist authoritarian government is going to do under the cover of the fear and outrage they generate?

Answers on a postcard marked:

I don't know what a rhetorical question is. Please ban me from the internet,
10 Downing Street,
That London

[Paul Calf]

Definitely via social media. They snapchatted their bombs to each other.

Yeah. we need to ban WhatsApp immediately. And phones.

[ASFTSN]

Here's a question: what's more terrifying, random (and thankfully still extremely uncommon) violence by religious nutcases, or the things that an already extremist authoritarian government is going to do under the cover of the fear and outrage they generate?

Answers on a postcard marked:

I don't know what a rhetorical question is. Please ban me from the internet,
10 Downing Street,
That London

What is the point of posting this?  Is the shit-slinging in the thread not heated enough?

[slapasoldier]

Yeah. we need to ban WhatsApp immediately. And phones.

A bomb was used. Should we ban bombs too?

[Quincey]

What is the point of posting this?  Is the shit-slinging in the thread not heated enough?

Seconded. And at least our government don't murder adults and children going to concerts.

[TheFalconMalteser]

Well that's how ISIS started right? They were a group in al-Qaida in Iraq who went against the leadership for being too extreme, so the AQ leadership expelled them. The expelled group later turned into ISIS.

Well, Al Zaqarwi's group had its own dynamism, developing in Iraq, coming out of Jordan, and he'd developed relationships in Kosovo.

[Paul Calf]

Seconded. And at least our government don't murder adults and children going to concerts.

They do, just not in this country.

In any case, this is a false equivalency. It's an appeal for calm. People will lose their shit over this, the government will suggest something ridiculously illiberal and enough people will lap it up for them to get away with it and the slope will steepen and become more slippery. This absolutely must be guarded against, and shouldn't be hand-waved away by people who'll shriek "BUT DEAD KIDS!"

Surely you can see this?

[Danger Man]

Seconded. And at least our government don't murder adults and children going to concerts.

True, We tend to use drones when we kill children.

[biggytitbo]

A bomb was used. Should we ban bombs too?

Ha, if only. Ironically its because of bombs that this whole situation exists in the first place.

[Hangthebuggers]

They do, just not in this country.

No they fucking don't. The UK military does its very best to minimise casualties (as of late). They have brilliant intelligence and use bombs sparingly. It's the Americans who are gung-ho.

Speak to any British soldier and they'll tell you the same. Hearts and minds.

Why do you spread this shit?

Besides a few minor, extremely rare incidents, the UK military is very, very wary of causing unnecessary damage. They've made mistakes in the past admittedly, but you'd be a fucking fool to suggest they deliberately bomb schools or whatever the fuck you think.

---
Christ, some people really are spreading that self loathing, UK hating bullshit.

[TheFalconMalteser]

No they fucking don't. The UK military does its very best to minimise casualties. They have brilliant intelligence and use bombs sparingly. It's the Americans who are gung-ho.

Speak to any British soldier and they'll tell you the same. Hearts and minds.

Why do you spread this shit?

Besides a few minor, extremely rare incidents, the UK military is very, very wary of causing unnecessary damage.

Absolutely.  Really unhelpful, bollocks, just the usual classic anti-West, anti-UK propaganda.  But if you have people that think using a drone to kill Jihadi John is "terrorism", and the same as blowing up 20 kids at a music concert, you are going to struggle.

[Hangthebuggers]

True, We tend to use drones when we kill children.

Eurgh. Thought you were better than that.