Penn and Teller - Fool Us

[MrT]

I thought it looked very obvious, the way his hand went towards his lapel but these things are verified beforehand and if they say it wasn't a switch then, I suppose, that's not what it is. Those Victorian card cunts from last week though, I assume they faked a switch so Penn and Teller would call it as such - they don't get a second go. If you can put up with it watch it again and look at the assistant's hands and body motions. Grrrrrr

[goldrush almighty]

The Swedes certainly wanted us to think it was a simple switch. It looked a bit too obvious, though. I'm surprised Penn & Teller fell for it.

I wondered if

Spoiler alert

the tape had a slit cut in it, invisible from a distance, but positioned so that it would cover the mouth when wrapped around the head. I'll have to watch it again to see if the assistant had any opportunity to push the selected card through the tape and into his mouth discreetly during the act

[close]

.

[lazyhour]

Re the Swedes, towards the end of the act the non-taped performer took the deck back, presumably allowing him to get the correct card from it. He then hit his colleague on the back of the head (giving the card back) and his colleage doubled over, which would be an ideal time to pop the card into his mouth, either through a slit or over the chin, maybe under a non-sticky portion of tape.

I'm quite enjoying this series. Given that it's prime-time ITV, it's amazing that it should be any good at all.

[mothman]

Actually, now you mention it, I thought the way the tape ripped across his mouth after it was cut looked interesting, and suggestive. I think that, like last week with the Victorian guys, they put in a red-herring move that suggested a switch had taken place (after taking the card out of his partner's mouth with tweezers, and holding it up so plainly, why would he let it go out of sight behind his hand in a way that screams out "switch taking place?" Especially if, in a normal show where people aren't asked to guess how it's done, anyone watching would see that move and think that was where the "magic" happened) It just dimishes the whole act otherwise).

[Famous Mortimer]

I thought it looked very obvious, the way his hand went towards his lapel but these things are verified beforehand and if they say it wasn't a switch then, I suppose, that's not what it is. Those Victorian card cunts from last week though, I assume they faked a switch so Penn and Teller would call it as such - they don't get a second go. If you can put up with it watch it again and look at the assistant's hands and body motions. Grrrrrr

It was such a shitty act as well - the audience were dead through most of it. Putting something in to fake out P&T is a clever tactic in one way, but a bullshit move in the other. I spotted what I thought was the deck switch as soon as they'd done it (maybe the pack they got Ross to shuffle was gimmicked in some way too?) but if they say they didn't do it...do they still have the guy backstage who is told how stuff's done in case the magicians try and lie to P&T, like they did in the pilot?

[Johnny Yesno]

Re the Swedes, towards the end of the act the non-taped performer took the deck back, presumably allowing him to get the correct card from it. He then hit his colleague on the back of the head (giving the card back) and his colleage doubled over, which would be an ideal time to pop the card into his mouth, either through a slit or over the chin, maybe under a non-sticky portion of tape.

That's similar to what I thought. My idea was that the non-taped guy stuck the card to the back of the taped guy's head when he hit him. Then the taped guy reached round and palmed the card before popping it in his mouth, all under the guise of pulling off the tape. I'd forgotten he was doubled over at one point, though.

Actually, now you mention it, I thought the way the tape ripped across his mouth after it was cut looked interesting, and suggestive.

Yes, he appeared to be tearing the tape as he removed it and I reckon the effort of doing this made it look like it was much more sticky than it actually was.

[HappyTree]

do they still have the guy backstage who is told how stuff's done in case the magicians try and lie to P&T, like they did in the pilot?

There must be some kind of check, otherwise any act could just lie and refuse to admit when P&T got it right. Another thing I noticed was that Ross made sure he stressed that there are no stooges. Perhaps P&T had complained to him that the "three meals" guy could easily have set it up with a stooge.

As this series goes on I'm finding that I believe in it less and less. I don't think P&T are being very straight with us either. It increasingly seems to me that they are letting some acts through just to have something to show in Vegas. How can the 2 most clued-up magicians of modern times not see the Victorian guy signalling to his mate? That act was very poorly executed too, the "guesses" for the cards were way too fast. There was no suspense or drama. He reeled off the names of the cards so easily it revealed that the trick was incredibly simple to them, thus not at all interesting to watch.

And quick-change acts? There is no secret to them at all. It's just layers of thin clothes than have quick release fastenings. What were they even doing on the show?

The 3 cups guy was the best. Great misdirection in that we were looking intently for how he moved little balls around, then suddenly 6 oranges and a grapefruit appear from nowhere. But sadly such a classic act could never fool P&T.

What was the trick with the mentalist? I don't believe that people are as specifically suggestible as mentalists claim, surely it's just a magic act with psychology as a BS explanation. He said the audience member was not an "instant stooge", yet Teller seemed to be saying that the performer had BRICK written on the palm of his hand. So if the guy went along with it and said brick, does that not make him an instant stooge?

[Bingo Fury]

after taking the card out of his partner's mouth with tweezers, and holding it up so plainly, why would he let it go out of sight behind his hand in a way that screams out "switch taking place?"

You're right, that really did diminish the whole thing. I was bouncing up and down and pointing at the telly when the card disappeared completely behind his hand as he was tucking the tweezers away. Without the post-trick analysis, I would have gone away believing I'd seen how it was done and that they were shit for making it so obvious.

[Rachel]

What was the trick with the mentalist? I don't believe that people are as specifically suggestible as mentalists claim, surely it's just a magic act with psychology as a BS explanation. He said the audience member was not an "instant stooge", yet Teller seemed to be saying that the performer had BRICK written on the palm of his hand. So if the guy went along with it and said brick, does that not make him an instant stooge?

It's been a long while since I read about some mentalism methods so I may be utterly mistaken, but I took that signal to mean

Spoiler alert

he was tapping the spectator on specific words to reinforce the 'pantomiming' of house/brick, go one way with the performance if the guy said house, and the way we saw if he said brick.

[close]

I'm pretty sure this is even a Derren Brown trick too.

[munkybitch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_FCDa2Qvhs

Skip to 3:42. To be honest this has been the first thing i've watched on a Saturday night and haven't felt like a loser for doing so.

[Johnny Yesno]

It's been a long while since I read about some mentalism methods so I may be utterly mistaken, but I took that signal to mean

Spoiler alert

he was tapping the spectator on specific words to reinforce the 'pantomiming' of house/brick, go one way with the performance if the guy said house, and the way we saw if he said brick.

[close]

I'm pretty sure this is even a Derren Brown trick too.

I understand that there were two ways the trick could have ended but HappyTree's point that people aren't that suggestible still stands.

[waynew]

Something else a bit fishy about the Scottish mentalist act.

The man sitting two seats along from the "volunteer" looks familiar:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/snip2.jpg/

He looks a LOT like Derren Brown collaborator Iain Sharkey...

[doppelkorn]

Something else a bit fishy about the Scottish mentalist act.

The man sitting two seats along from the "volunteer" looks familiar:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/snip2.jpg/

He looks a LOT like Derren Brown collaborator Iain Sharkey...

I am just catching up on last Saturday's episode and I hit the roof when I saw him. "

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

" was definitely a plant in a Derren Brown show I went to see and was dressed exactly the same and also called

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

. This has really upset my Mrs and her sister who are massive DB fans and believe when he says he doesn't use plants.

We're now internet sleuthing because now I'm convinced he's

Spoiler alert

a stooge for DB and was a stooge in that act. In the DB show I saw, Svengali, he was the man with an embarrasing confession.

[close]

We are now in full inversitagtion mode.

Also on tonight's show, how dodgy was that guy's "Cuban" accent?

[Marvin]

Neither of the tricks you have seen Kenny be involved in need a stooge though, at least not a pre-arranged one.

[Steve Lampkins]

I've not seen the show, but if 'Kenny' is a DB stooge, he might have a natural interest in magic - so maybe not so unusual for him to attend a P&T show.

[doppelkorn]

Well we've been through the options:

1. He's a magic fan and was at the P+T taping and the Derren Brown show and happened to be picked on both, wearing exactly the same clothing, and at the former show, sat two seats away from the man who co-wrote the Derren Brown show he was also picked in.

2. He was a stooge in Derren Brown but was only visiting the second show for pleasure, along with some of his DB teammates. The woman in the picture posted by wynew is not Derren Borwn's mum, we don't know who it is. It seems a bit odd that McLeod asked Penn to pick him and he went straight for him, mentioning the baseball cap as a specific item of clothing he was wearing. This thread seems to think there was no stooge involved.

[hpmons]

Christ, the...well, "The Black Man Act" was dreadful.  Not only boring, but after the "reveal" it...well it reveals everything, how can someone be left fooled?

[Marvin]

You can buy the trick McLeod did, it is on his instructional dvd and you don't need a stooge. Penn would almost certainly recognise Sharkey so if anything by picking his friend he may have been trying to pick a difficult subject, given that most mentalism requires the subject to play along a bit.

[Steve Lampkins]

That thread on that public forum gives away much more than Mcleod ever came close to. :facepalm:

[doppelkorn]

I suppose I'm just looking for an explanation or confirmation that "

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

" was coincidentally at both shows. I know that neither trick requires a stooge but I do find it very odd that he should be picked for both, plus the fact that he was sitting next to Sharkey.

Marvin, you allude to the fact that he knows Sharkey, and was therefore somehow complicit in the DB show in some way.

I don't know, I just want answers. I suppose the fact that DB makes a point of saying he doesn't use stooges makes me all the more keen to find out if

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

was a stooge.

[EFB]

Something else a bit fishy about the Scottish mentalist act.

The man sitting two seats along from the "volunteer" looks familiar:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/snip2.jpg/

He looks a LOT like Derren Brown collaborator Iain Sharkey...

I know exactly how this trick is done. It's using multiple outs and dual reality, and when you see how it's done and why he said what he did, you'll get why the participant wasn't *that* impressed, but the audience were. PM me for the explanation if you like.

[Icehaven]

I suppose I'm just looking for an explanation or confirmation that "

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

" was coincidentally at both shows. I know that neither trick requires a stooge but I do find it very odd that he should be picked for both, plus the fact that he was sitting next to Sharkey.

Marvin, you allude to the fact that he knows Sharkey, and was therefore somehow complicit in the DB show in some way.

I don't know, I just want answers. I suppose the fact that DB makes a point of saying he doesn't use stooges makes me all the more keen to find out if

Spoiler alert

Kenny

[close]

was a stooge.

I'd be very surprised if it was the same person on P&T and at the DB show you went to. Why take the risk? It's not like he has to do anything skilful. There isn't that much magic on TV at the moment, and a large portion of the audience of this programme probably also like and watch DB, so it seems incredible they'd even consider sharing stooges, never mind right down to him dressing the same at both shows (and I'd imagine DB wouldn't be very happy about it either). Does he not still pick his participants by throwing stuff into the audience then getting them to throw it a few times? Are you sure he doesn't just look similar? If DB does use stooges he'd have to use a different one every night of his tour, as I bet there's quite a few folks who go and see him at least a few times, particularly as he does a few weeks in the same theatres.   

[doppelkorn]

On the Derren Brown show

Spoiler alert

the trick involved lots of audience members (everyone was invited to do it) writing down an embarassing confession and Derren picking some out of a hat. Then he got all the audience members to stand up and eliminated them all until he had the person who had made the confession. Kenny was one of the people. I remember because he was on the big screens for quite some time and was involved in protracted exchanged with DB. His name was definitely Kenny. He was definitely wearing a baseball cap, jacket and light coloured tee shirt.

[close]

We asked my GF's mum and dad who went to see the show in Stoke (we saw it in London) and they said it was a different person or that the person we described didn't ring any bells. I'm just amazed at the coincidence and the fact he was sitting so near Iain Sharkey.

One thing has popped in to my head that anybody who ends up a victim of DB gets some sort of freebie as a reward for playing along and DB could have offered him tickets to P+T and got him on stage as a sort of prize?

[Marvin]

I didn't allude to him being friends with Sharkey, just that Penn may have seen Sharkey who he would no doubt be aware of, and picked someone sat next to him deliberately as most mentalists don't want another a mentalist's mate to be their volunteer.

One thing has popped in to my head that anybody who ends up a victim of DB gets some sort of freebie as a reward for playing along and DB could have offered him tickets to P+T and got him on stage as a sort of prize?

Or far more likely, being a fan of magic, he both went to see Derren Brown and applied for the already free tickets to the Penn and Teller recordings and happened to end up being used in both?

Neither of the tricks need stooges, the one performed on P&T is just a lot less exciting/impressive for the volunteer than it is for the audience.

[HappyTree]

Maybe I'm too cynical when it comes to stage magic (ironically enough) but I just assume that they're all lying all the time. If they say "no stooge" then there probably is one. What is to stop them? I mean, DB said "no camera tricks" and then used one for the lottery thing very obviously. It's an act. There is absolutely no reason to believe anything they claim during it.

[Marvin]

I think that's fair enough, although to pick you up on it, Derren Brown didn't say no camera tricks regarding that program.

It's quite frustrating that discussions of magic performers get so bogged down in the method, and I realise the format of this show doesn't really help with that. We know there's been a deception with every magic trick, what is most important is the effect itself. Some of the tricks that have had the best initial reaction from me, have depressingly mundane and boring methods, but that doesn't matter, when you watch it, you're not watching the method.

[HappyTree]

Did he not say no TV trickery? Oh, my mistake. I guess I just assumed he would have. There I go, assuming again! I suppose it was just unfortunate for him that the visual effect didn't quite work. Just a couple of millimetres cost him the whole illusion.

And how's this for timing? I was just about to add "Was there a P&T this week? My torrent is strangely quiet." But it has just appeared in the queue this second. Now that's magic!

[doppelkorn]

I didn't allude to him being friends with Sharkey, just that Penn may have seen Sharkey who he would no doubt be aware of, and picked someone sat next to him deliberately as most mentalists don't want another a mentalist's mate to be their volunteer.

You did! And you did again there. There's no concrete evidence to say that he knows Iain Sharkey, he was just spotted two seats away from him but you've said twice that he's Sharkley's mate,

Penn would almost certainly recognise Sharkey so if anything by picking his friend

and

most mentalists don't want another a mentalist's mate to be their volunteer

Unless you mean Penn automatically assumed Kenny knew Sharkey because he was sitting so close?

[Marvin]

Yes, I meant because he was sat by him. For christ's sake, this isn't a conspiracy theory.

[doppelkorn]

Fair enough but you don't seem remotely surprised at the happenstance of it all. I'm yet to be convinced that he doesn't work with Derren Brown.