Tim Minchin in a mild twit-storm / comedians apologising

[Neil]

I'll edit this with a fuller post in the morning, but just noticed Tim Minchin has caused a bit of controversy for using the word "tranny" on the telly. If you look at his timeline now, he's dealt with it with great grace and tact, and has made very good reasons why he shouldn't apologise.

What's your opinion on comedians apologising?

People demanding apologies from comedians is such bollocks.

[Big Jack McBastard]

People demanding apologies from comedians is such bollocks.

Yep that pretty much covers it for me too.

[Noodle Lizard]

I had no idea "tranny" was a slur (in and of itself).  I can't keep up.

But yeah, anyone who has to demand an apology will never get a genuinely sincere one.

[Famous Mortimer]

I was a bit surprised it was seen as a slur too - I'd have thought it was fairly neutral unless you attached an unpleasant word to the beginning.

[Noodle Lizard]

Then again the people complaining about it (TransMediaWatch) have also implied that anyone who listens to hip-hop or rock music (among a whole list of other things) is condoning rape.

They linked to this website:

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/a-man-is-a-rape-supporter-if/

[Dead kate moss]

I've read that list before. A man is a rape supporter if he is anti-abortion. Also if he is pro-choice.

[CaledonianGonzo]

But yeah, anyone who has to demand an apology will never get a genuinely sincere one.

Perhaps dragging this into an off-topic discussion about the nature of Apology itself, but that's not really the case, is it?

Person A makes an inadvertent mistake
Person B, outraged/offended/genuinely aggrieved, demands an apology
Person A, on realising his mistake and that he has really upset someone, gives genuine, sincere apology.

Happens all the time.

[Noodle Lizard]

Yes, that implies that the person realises their error and wants to give an apology, and presumably wouldn't need to be prompted to do so.  But yes, this is off-topic.

[Noodle Lizard]

I've read that list before. A man is a rape supporter if he is anti-abortion. Also if he is pro-choice.

I love how smug the author (and many of the commenters) are about it, as if i t's some kind of conclusive proof that all men are rape-supporters. 

Actually, I should re-post that on the "Is rape funny?" thread.

[Zetetic]

I've read that list before. A man is a rape supporter if he is anti-abortion. Also if he is pro-choice.

I find it impressive that when faced with that list of all things, and attempting to respond critically to it, you manage to fail to tackle anything it actually says and have to invent a position to rail against.

[Famous Mortimer]

Then again the people complaining about it (TransMediaWatch) have also implied that anyone who listens to hip-hop or rock music (among a whole list of other things) is condoning rape.

They linked to this website:

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/a-man-is-a-rape-supporter-if/

Does Minchin know this, and has he mentioned it?

[Noodle Lizard]

Does Minchin know this, and has he mentioned it?

I have no idea - I wouldn't have thought so, since it was a few months ago.  I have/had a radical feminist (although that's not the term she used) acquaintance who's always linking to things they post, and it triggered a memory.

[Zetetic]

Does Minchin know this, and has he mentioned it?

I don't think he'd give a toss. He was more interested in responding the accusation itself in a reasonable manner. This seems to have actually changed TWM's stance which can only be a good thing.

While these people can end up over-sensitised through their experiences - and there's a secondary issue in modern gender politics where there's a degree of (far from utterly unreasonable in principle) reaction to the shite bankruptcy of the self-declared most 'progressive' parts of the feminist movement - TWM don't look like terrible people.

What's your opinion on comedians apologising?

If a comedian think he or she has said something which they now believe conveys something stupid, I don't see the problem. People learn new things.

[Dead kate moss]

I find it impressive that when faced with that list of all things, and attempting to respond critically to it, you manage to fail to tackle anything it actually says and have to invent a position to rail against.

Glad you found it impressive. I'm not railing against it, I'm lightly mocking it. Yes, she actually says 'if he is pro-choice because he believes abortion access will make women more sexually available.' So I misrepresented her position I suppose. The list is so ridiculous I don't feel the need to respond critically to it.

[tomasrojo]

This business about apologies put me in mind of this.  I'm sure you know it already.  A few years ago Matthew Kelly confronted Frank Skinner over a spontaneous joke he made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Vxi1qo9yA&feature=related

[momatt]

I'd say if anyone's allowed to use the word 'tranny', it's a bloke who regularly wears women's make-up.
Some people just like getting upset and causing a fuss about nothing.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

I associate it more with transvestite than transsexual.

[Theremin]

I really wouldn't consider Minchin a transvestite. You need a lot more than make up to be one, in my experience.

[confettiinmyhair]

I think Minchin comes off as trying to please everyone here. He hasn't really got to apologize to anyone. But in doing so, he comes across as somebody who isn't particularly in control of what is saying. Why does he need to justify anything? Why does he tweet that he has drag friends, and that he's against discrimination? Is he freaking out that this one little thing could destroy his career? Is this an orchestrated stunt, designed to create interest in a comedian like the word 'mong' did? (not that I'm suggesting Gervais orchestrated 'mong-gate', but other comedians must surely have taken notice how controversy and twit-storms whip up interest in who they are, and what they are doing.)

[Harpo Speaks]

What's your opinion on comedians apologising?

An apology that comes in the midst of a huge controversy is always going to be seen to be lacking in credibility and sincerity, even if it is genuinely meant.

However, as for comedians apologising in general, I don't see why they differ from anyone else in that sometimes they make errors of judgement, and upon reflection may feel that they want to apologise for their mistakes.

[CaledonianGonzo]

There's also a great deal of difference in terms of whether the joke that causes the offence is a considered, prepared-in-advance, drafted and redrafted piece of material or a spontaneous, off-the-cuff improvisation, blurted out in the heat of the moment.

I've seen comedians like Kitson apologise for the latter when they've gone too far, but would expect fewer retractions of something said in the former situation as there's usually been more thought put into it.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Yeah so I'm a supporter of rape apparently :(

[Famous Mortimer]

This business about apologies put me in mind of this.  I'm sure you know it already.  A few years ago Matthew Kelly confronted Frank Skinner over a spontaneous joke he made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Vxi1qo9yA&feature=related

If it had been funny and not just another in an endless line of those lazy "gasp" jokes from a late-night talk show host, then I think Skinner would have had more of a leg to stand on, but as it is neither of them come out of that looking particularly good.

[Depressed Beyond Tables]

Perhaps they were demanding an apology for his act all these years.

[Thewaddler]

This business about apologies put me in mind of this.  I'm sure you know it already.  A few years ago Matthew Kelly confronted Frank Skinner over a spontaneous joke he made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Vxi1qo9yA&feature=related

Not seen that before, very interesting, ta. I think they both come out of it okay. Kelly was within his rights to bring it up and I really like the way that Skinner doesn't take the easy way out and say "it was all spur of the moment thing, sorry, sorry". I think what he says is much more sincere. It's a bit of a shame that the audience's freaked out reaction makes it so awkward, that you don't get any closure to the narrative and most of all, it's a shame that the initial joke was so shit.

[yokel]

"Tranny' is  a pretty strong slur here in America and no doubt would Tim have to apologize for it. Dunno how it is over there though.

[Serge]

I have talked with transvestites and transsexuals in the past who have referred to themselves or others as trannies, but I suppose it's probably all down to the individual person as to whether they find it offensive. Some people will happily look for offence where there is none intended, though, which was certainly the case here. I've never particularly been a fan of Minchin's, but I think he's carried himself very well over the past 24 hours, and I have a great deal of newfound respect for him.

[JesusAndYourBush]

"Tranny' is  a pretty strong slur here in America and no doubt would Tim have to apologize for it. Dunno how it is over there though.

Impossible to say if it's offensive from just that one word surely?  We'd need  a longer quote, a bit of context.  Without the full quote the discussion seems pointless because anyone who didn't see the show doesn't know what he actually said.

Incidentally the top hit in google is someone called Fiona commenting on Derren Brown's blog in 2009, saying "Am I the only person in the world who doesn't "get" Minchin?!  He looks like a bad tranny, terrible hair (even Russell Brands is better than that) More eye liner than ME?!  And he sounds like James Blunt..."

[Steve Lampkins]

Here's the part in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcW93eElFSU&feature=player_detailpage#t=410s


He just goes along with Sean Lock... but I guess Lock is not an active Twitter user...


And RE: 'is rape funny', where's the uproar for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-qLrHn9Zl8&feature=player_detailpage#t=956s

[phantom_power]

That list is amazing. Exactly how does being anti-abortion make you pro-rape? Isn't the reasoning behind your anti-abortion a factor? There are lots of reasons to be anti-abortion. Are all of those supporting rape?

The same could be said for lots of items in that list. I fail to see the causal link between the offence mentioned and the support of rape.