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Daniel Tosh Heckling 'Shitstorm'

Started by Unoriginal, July 11, 2012, 02:18:47 AM

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Unoriginal

A lot of Twitter comments are mentioning a blog post written by a female who 'heckled' Daniel Tosh and was hounded out of the venue. I don't know much about Tosh, apart from seeing him deal with a drunken heckler on youtube, but from what the blogger writes, I support her view. It's about time hacks get called on lazy jokes about rape, paedophilia, AIDS and other 'offensive' topics that don't have an underlying point to them except that the topic is offensive.

http://breakfastcookie.tumblr.com/post/26879625651/so-a-girl-walks-into-a-comedy-club

Thoughts?

futilitarian

I like jokes that have a point (which some of Tosh's jokes do, e.g., the one about steroids in pro sport (track 4 off his Happy Thoughts CD))
but I don't think a joke has to have a point to be a good/non-hack joke.

Noodle Lizard

No, I'm not on her side at all.  I don't really like Daniel Tosh for the same reasons you mention - he's similar to an American Frankie Boyle or Jimmy Carr as far as his stand-up goes; the occasional decently-crafted joke amidst a whole bunch of "lol rape" punchlines - but what gives her the right to disrupt the show just because she doesn't like it?  Even if it wasn't the guy she came to see, it's easy to leave - especially since Dane Cook had apparently already been on.  It's like people who bottle support bands at shows - what's the point in ruining it for people who are enjoying it just because you're not?  Wait outside.

QuoteI don't sit there while someone tells me how I should feel about something as profound and damaging as rape.

He's a comedian, not a politician or preacher.  If you went to see a play and one of the characters started saying these sorts of things, would you stand up and interrupt him to give your opinion?  It's not all that different - it's a persona and he's performing pre-written material as this on-stage persona.  She didn't quote any of the statements or jokes in context, but having seen Tosh's stand-up myself, I can guarantee you it was all done with tongue firmly in cheek.  Y'know, the comedian wasn't being sincere - you could say he was joking - but the fact that she says she thought she was actually going to be raped there and then by audience members as a result doesn't say too much about her reasoning skills.

I think anyone who complains that an offensive comedian is being offensive on stage is to be taken no more seriously than a strip club punter complaining about the nudity.  It's entertainment and nobody is forcing you to be there.

Theremin

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 11, 2012, 03:34:51 AMY'know, the comedian wasn't being sincere - you could say he was joking - but the fact that she says she thought she was actually going to be raped there and then by audience members as a result doesn't say too much about her reasoning skills.

But she doesn't say that at all.

What she said was:

QuoteI should probably add that having to basically flee while Tosh was enthusing about how hilarious it would be if I was gang-raped in that small, claustrophic room was pretty viscerally terrifying and threatening all the same, even if the actual scenario was unlikely to take place. The suggestion of it is violent enough and was meant to put me in my place."

She mentions feeling intimidated, which isn't the same, and is far more reasonable.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 03:45:44 AM
But she doesn't say that at all. You've just made that up.

What she said was:

She mentions feeling intimidated, which isn't the same, and is far more reasonable.

Okay, I'll take that back, but everything else I said stands as far as I'm concerned.  It's like that person a few months ago who was trying to report Jerry Sadowitz to the police for inciting rape and racial hatred.

Still, it's publicity for Tosh.

EDIT: 
Quote from: That blogShe does plan on returning to comedy shows in the future, but to see comedians that she's seen before or to at least look up artists before going to their shows.

The only outcome there should have been, if you ask me.

futilitarian

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 03:45:44 AM

What she said was:
"...The suggestion of it is violent enough and was meant to put me in my place."

She mentions feeling intimidated, which isn't the same, and is far more reasonable.

a comedian intimidating a heckler? never thought I'd see the day someone on stage would put someone in an audience in their place.

futilitarian

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 11, 2012, 03:50:06 AM
It's like that person a few months ago who was trying to report Jerry Sadowitz to the police for inciting rape and racial hatred.

what nation did that happen in? (isn't that legal in the US?)

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 04:32:35 AM
what nation did that happen in? (isn't that legal in the US?)

The UK (i.e. more or less the only country where anyone has been able to see him)

Theremin

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 04:31:08 AM
a comedian intimidating a heckler? never thought I'd see the day someone on stage would put someone in an audience in their place.

My point wasn't whether or not what she did was correct, just that what NL said wasn't true.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 04:43:11 AM
My point wasn't whether or not what she did was correct, just that what NL said wasn't true.

I didn't lie, but I probably misrepresented her a bit.  I'd only read it once and for some reason didn't see the last sentence or two - but she did make it seem as though she thought she was in immediate danger (hence having to "flee" the auditorium).

Theremin

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 11, 2012, 04:46:39 AM
I didn't lie, but I probably misrepresented her a bit.  I'd only read it once and for some reason didn't see the last sentence or two - but she did make it seem as though she thought she was in immediate danger (hence having to "flee" the auditorium).

I'm sure you didn't intend to.

Anyway, we're quibbling over semantics. She felt intimidated. What the exact physical nature of that intimidation was in her mind is irrelevant.

futilitarian

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 04:54:12 AM
She felt intimidated. What the exact physical nature of that intimidation was in her mind is irrelevant.

comedians intimidate hecklers to shut them up.

if she had complained about a joke about drug abuse or ugly people he'd probably have mocked her mental state or her appearance to achieve the same effect. ...my assumption is that, being in the moment, and words like rape being right there in his short-term memory, and him being forced to deviate from his act and think on the spot in order to come up with a quick reply, he just stayed on theme, rather than using some pre-determined heckler-shut-down, and so he said something rather like you would expect him to be prompted to say (especially when you know he likes to make controversial/daring/insulting jokes).

if she has a problem with him not being sensitive and respectful enough in his act, she could always be stupid enough to make an utterly ridiculously vain appeal to him after the show to change his work, unless she's either too impulsive/rude/thoughtless herself (ironically not unlike a rapist!), or simply attention-seeking and hoping the crowd would take her side (like some sort of blog writing person).

what I'm saying is: she had it coming.
'she wouldn't dress like that if she didn't wanna get fingered' - Tosh quote (quoted out of the context of his no by no means means no bit)

Theremin

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 05:09:39 AM
what I'm saying is: she had it coming.

I'm not disputing that shouting out was a rude thing to do (even though I have no idea what the material she felt the need to respond to was), and I have no problem with comedians insulting hecklers.

However, there is a difference, at least to me, between calling someone fat, or stupid, or ugly, and openly wishing horrible sexual violence on them. I'm sure, as you said, that it wasn't a calculated move on Tosh's part, more likely just improvisation on a theme, but there's still a nasty, unneccessary level of escalation there.

Not that I think he should apologise, particularly. Or lose his show, as some have been furiously tweeting.

But I do think there's some merit to (as some people have said) the idea that comments like Tosh's contribute to the wider noton of 'Rape Culture'. Specifically, the idea that what he said, and the presentation (by various people) of his comments as being an acceptable reply to a heckler, lessens the percieved seriousness of rape.

That probably seems like pie in the sky, but I think it's worth discussing.

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 05:09:39 AM
'she wouldn't dress like that if she didn't wanna get fingered' - Tosh quote (quoted out of the context of his no by no means means no bit)

In isolation, that is genuinely horrible, and plays into a load of misogynist myths about rape, but context is important, so I'll reserve judgement.

futilitarian

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 05:32:14 AM
However, there is a difference, at least to me, between calling someone fat, or stupid, or ugly, and openly wishing horrible sexual violence on them.

well, given that it's an insincere wish, I think calling someone ugly 'ugly' would be in the same vein as disingenuously wishing rape on a rape victim--being ugly is less awful than being raped, but believing you are ugly since someone thought it suitable to assert you were is more hurtful than not believing you'll be raped when someone calls for rape (after all, this wasn't a gig in Afghanistan -- if he was doing a gig in that country I think it would be seriously irresponsible to make a response like that to a woman's rights activist in the audience). ...call someone attractive 'ugly' or call a feminist 'inferior to men' and it won't accomplish much, just like saying 'I hope you get raped' or 'I hope one of your family members dies'* to someone who isn't sensitive about the respective subject matter. if you're looking to shut down someone disruptive, you can't really go for something you think'll be ineffective.

*line from a Tim Minchin song.

maybe, though, he should have deviated into one of his older bits: "rape is wrong. I'm not mocking rape. ...but 'no means no' is a completely difference story...". I wonder if he suffered a bit from the 'can't rehash old material since I assume my audience already knows it' expectation in this instance.

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 05:32:14 AM
there's still a nasty, unneccessary level of escalation there.

there's always the danger if you start shit with someone that they'll push it further than you were willing to go. the lesson is don't rock the boat if you have a sensitive stomach, it may backfire when it turns out they can stand up to you instead of being intimidated by you.

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 05:32:14 AM
But I do think there's some merit to (as some people have said) the idea that comments like Tosh's contribute to the wider noton of 'Rape Culture'. Specifically, the idea that what he said, and the presentation (by various people) of his comments as being an acceptable reply to a heckler, lessens the percieved seriousness of rape.

it's an interesting thought.
if I start to feel free to talk like some gun-totting hillbilly, 'shut you face or amma gon ke'ill you!' will I start to become more mentally ok with the idea of ending human life as a response to free speech?

Theremin

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 05:53:41 AMif you're looking to shut down someone disruptive, you can't really go for something you think'll be ineffective.

...

there's always the danger if you start shit with someone that they'll push it further than you were willing to go. the lesson is don't rock the boat if you have a sensitive stomach, it may backfire when it turns out they can stand up to you instead of being intimidated by you.

True, but speaking as someone who has dealt with hecklers on stage, there is a middle ground between doing nothing, and fantasising that extreme sexual violence be done to them.

Actually, one of the weirdest parts of this is that Tosh (presumably aware he was doing material that had the potential to upset people) didn't have a response pre-prepared. From what you're saying, this doesn't seem like a new bit, and presumably he doesn't just wish rape on any and all in the crowd who object to him.

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 05:53:41 AM
it's an interesting thought.
if I start to feel free to talk like some gun-totting hillbilly, 'shut you face or amma gon ke'ill you!' will I start to become more mentally ok with the idea of ending human life as a response to free speech?

Well, if that's something you'd honestly like to say in response to an argument, yes.

The point being that the people who genuinely want to say things like that aren't doing it for a laugh, but do in fact hold those sentiments, and wish to further them.

Theremin

@Thread

Part of the problem I have with this is due to the wider context of what happened.

Tosh is a straight, white, middle-class man, with media platform, a large fanbase, and a large personal fortune. He's a millionaire, standing on stage, telling a woman how awesome it would be if she got gang-raped.

Even if she was being rude, that's not alright. At best he's punching down, at worst he's taking an issue that affects hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people, and cynically using it as a tool for crowd management.

However, all that does have to be considered in the context of split-second improv.

Also, Tosh has apologised.

Famous Mortimer

Having seen pretty much every episode of his TV show, I admired him for being prepared to go where very few comedians will - but then I've always thought his views on women to be pretty unpleasant, and without the sense of self-deprecation that occasionally shines through in his act.

I think doing a routine about rape, if we take the reporter's word at anything like face value, is just using the word for its shock value. Doesn't sound like a particularly great or well-thought-out bit. And we are talking about using sexual violence against women - I don't imagine for one moment she was the only one who felt uncomfortable in that room.

Quotewhat I'm saying is: she had it coming
I presume you were trying to make a point of some sort, and not use that phrase the way it would sound to everyone reading this thread?

Saying that, if someone said "hey, let's go and see Dane Cook" and you were internet-savvy enough to have your own blog, you'd have presumably discovered the most recent bit of news about him - http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2012/01/dane-cook-bombs-talks-about-chainsaw-fking-whores - so if you were a woman who wasn't all that thrilled about that whole frat-boy-misogyny thing, you might have been forewarned.

EDIT: he's apologised (and complained about being taken out of context, another classic defence of the asshole who went too far), so this discussion is sorta moot.

Noodle Lizard

I don't see why him saying he's been taken out of context is hard to believe - he has been, that's undeniable.  All we have is one sentence recounted by the victim, no other quotes.  If there was video footage of the incident, it would be easier to judge him and what he was saying[nb]for instance, there's no way Michael Richards could say he had been taken out of context[/nb] - as it stands, we can only judge what's been said in one obviously biased person's blog.

I'm still not sure why people are acting as though everything he says on stage must be something he actually believes or supports - especially with Tosh, who's more like a male gentile Sarah Silverman.  I think to say "It's not okay because he's white and middle-class and wealthy" is embarrassingly irrelevant.  Jerry Sadowitz makes all the same statements and worse, and there's far more cause to believe that some of what he says does reflect his personal beliefs, but it's somehow okay because he's poor, a cult figure and has Stewart Lee's blessing?  I like Sadowitz, I much prefer him to Tosh, but the level of double standards by some people are staggering.  It's either okay for a comedian to say those things as part of his act or it isn't.

futilitarian

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 06:23:02 AM
Well, if that's something you'd honestly like to say in response to an argument, yes.

not to an argument, to someone interrupting to whinge about a joke about war or the death penalty or something like that.

maybe you start saying 'ya know the funny thing about mass murder though...' (I recall one comedian has a joke about mass graves)
and someone interrupts 'hey! murder is not funny, asshole!'
'somebody shoot that fuckin' loudmouth!' ::tries to find a place to re-start the bit:: seems like a natural outcome.
...it seems like the right thing to do. someone takes issue with what you're doing, you don't concede that you shouldn't have approved of what you've done, you deny that their objection is a valid one by doubling down and showing them that their whinging doesn't change shit (just like having gay pride parades where you go to excess (exercising every stereotype) for the purpose of really rubbing in their face all the deviance they're not comfortable, just to make the point that you don't feel intimidated or convinced that you should think ill of any of it). ... as an obnoxious person, myself, I feel like it's a natural reaction to my enlightenment values being challenged by the dead hand of the past that seeks to control public opinion by silencing opposition to the norm.
if someone says 'hey, that's sacred, don't you dare mock our Pope!' you say 'go home and masturbate to your little bondage Jesus idol, goddamn pedophile'.

Noodle Lizard

I've always found it a bit strange that people rarely seem to complain when jokes are made about hypothetical murder, torture, beating, war (unless it offends them on a militaristic/nationalistic level) etc., a lot of which is fairly common in comedy.  Rape definitely seems to be in a league of its own[nb]Unless it's male prison rape in which case it's just an accepted staple of anyone's jokes[/nb].

futilitarian

Quote from: Theremin on July 11, 2012, 06:35:47 AM
Tosh is a straight, white, middle-class man, with media platform, a large fanbase, and a large personal fortune. He's a millionaire, standing on stage, telling a woman how awesome it would be if she got gang-raped.

let's do a thought experiment...

everything everyone said that night happened, but Tosh's words were taken by a group of drunk bikers near the bar as incitement, they heeded the call, and threw her against the stage and started ripping off her clothes while she screams and struggles.

who thinks Tosh smiles and raises the roof and encourages applause for the men, and who thinks he gets awkward, scared, calls for the bouncer or urges the crowd to do something, or maybe even does something himself (I don't know his proclivities) to interfere with their actions?

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 07:10:00 AM
everything everyone said that night happened, but Tosh's words were taken by a group of drunk bikers near the bar as incitement, they heeded the call, and threw her against the stage and started ripping off her clothes while she screams and struggles

[irrelevant glib remark] Oh so now all bikers are drunken rapists?  Talk about punching down on the disenfranchised working class!!!!!!!! [/irrelevant glib remark]

futilitarian

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 11, 2012, 07:04:10 AM
I've always found it a bit strange that people rarely seem to complain when jokes are made about hypothetical murder, torture, beating, war (unless it offends them on a militaristic/nationalistic level) etc., a lot of which is fairly common in comedy.  Rape definitely seems to be in a league of its own[nb]Unless it's male prison rape in which case it's just an accepted staple of anyone's jokes[/nb].

because the former are less common, maybe?

everyone is or knows a woman...everyone wants them to be happy and healthy. stats show that a lot of them will be victims of abuse at some time in their life. no one really thinks murder is how their life will end, and who would torture us? and can we not withstand a little beating now and then? and will we really get drafted in a war?...they seem like fairly distant topics. And given that it's popular to think there's nothing worse than rape--that murder is rare, war is noble and you have to die sometime anyway, violence is normal, and torture is bad but rape is the worst kind of torture--it seems suitable to be something people are prone to be sympathetic about, either of our fear for themselves (you probably don't joke about hell if you fear that you'll burn in hell) or fear for their human relationships for failing to be compassionate about it.

futilitarian

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 11, 2012, 07:16:11 AM
Oh so now all bikers are drunken rapists?

no, just the ones who get drunk at Tosh gigs. ;)

futilitarian

re the George Carlin youtube link 'tagged' to this thread, that kind of response ('you commit homosexual acts! shut up! I fucked your mother!') wouldn't really be the best response to someone who's not being a drunk loudmouth but imagining that they're standing up for a vulnerable population.

suppose Tosh had said something in the vein of that Carlin response: 'go suck a pussy, you loud cunt, I'll fuck your mother!'...he'd just come off looking like he hates women, as if there was this hatred for women just bubbling under the surface.
might work against fellow white guys, but with anyone else it would be pretty risky to appear to lose it like that.

jutl

Leaving aside the ethics of the situation I think we can all agree that '"Actually..." is a very poor way to start a heckle.

futilitarian

Quote from: jutl on July 11, 2012, 07:42:06 AM
Leaving aside the ethics of the situation I think we can all agree that '"Actually..." is a very poor way to start a heckle.

what if you're heckling your professor?

Mark Steels Stockbroker

So hang on... let me get this right... a stand-up can justify any material at all by just saying that he has an on-stage persona or is performing a character, and everything said into the mic is said in context, and thus no one can hold anything against him?

So what, if anything, is/was wrong with the old 70s comics, and Roy "Chubby" Brown, who most certainly was performing in character on stage? Plenty of those old guarders won't defend the racist stuff beyond saying "that's what the public want" - ie. they are playing the "club comic" persona and just delivering what is expected of that.

Am I out of date, and not realising that nobody has a problem with any of that stuff at all now?

jutl

Quote from: futilitarian on July 11, 2012, 07:45:16 AM
what if you're heckling your professor?

"Can I just confirm..?" is a more withering alternative.

futilitarian

Quote from: Mark Steels Stockbroker on July 11, 2012, 07:54:35 AM
So hang on... let me get this right... a stand-up can justify any material at all by just saying that he has an on-stage persona or is performing a character, and everything said into the mic is said in context, and thus no one can hold anything against him?

justify it morally you mean? (because within the US there's no legal question, AFAIK)

we live in a world where a urinal can be an art installation. and you want to ask if something that makes people laugh is justified as comedy? seems QED to me.