BLACK BOOKS 3

[Jemble Fred]

The trailer for this exploded onto Channel 4 last night, and seemed to add a splash of excitement to the whole day, especially after the so-so-at-best Darkplace.

Okay, so Black Books 2 showed a serious dip in quality in every other episode (about half and half good and bad, in my memory) but my hopes are high for this new series, especially for the first episode, which my good pal Totalnightmare saw recorded, and raved about. Apparently has a classic performance from Pegg as the owner of the new mega book shop.

I know lots of people on here can't stand Pegg, but that's not my problem. Perhaps you'll change your mind after March 11.

Well, whores will have their trinkets...

[butnut]

Hooray! Good news. Yes, I think your memory of series 2 is pretty much like mine. I remember some good stuff, but there were moments when it felt a bit lacking.

I hope this series is good. And I'm a Pegg fan. What with Shaun of the Dead out in April, it's hopefully going to be a good few months.

[Jemble Fred]

Humph.

[Nearly Annually]

The one where Bill* hid in the piano was pantfillingtastic. High hopes ...


* I don't care what his character's called, like with Clint Eastwood. Mani, whatever.

[It Was Cancer]

I saw it being filmed as well and it rocked my socks.  It's worth the wait, believe me.

[Jemble Fred]

Oh for fuck's sake.

Black Books is to end after the next series - but it could return as a stage show.

Star Dylan Moran has said the Channel 4 sitcom has come to the end of its natural life, and didn't want to continue just because it was popular.

In an interview with The Independent, he said: "We wouldn't want to feel we were tickling up a horse that just wants to die. You don't want to get the feeling that you're pumped up on steroids while supported by very thin legs that are going to collapse at any minute.

"I don't subscribe to the idea of providing more of the same. You have to keep constantly trying to push things and keep the material alive. It's death to an artist to think, 'That went well - now I'll try and do the same thing again.' "

His co-star Bill Bailey added: "We don't want to stretch it beyond its natural life like they did when they took Only Fools And Horses to Miami."

But Moran revealed: "We have talked about a stage version of Black Books. We might do it if one of us needs an organ transplant. I don't know whether it'll be the lungs or the liver first."

The third and final series starts on Channel 4 on Thursday.

Fair enough of course, and very well put. But from the general standard of series two, you're not necessarily leaving on a high, are you Dylan? I thought they were going to stick at it until they found the formula to almost guarantee laughs, rather than the hit-and-miss nature it's fallen into. Course, if Series 3 is as amazing as the first, it might be a different fillet of fish. To me, there just seems something a bit too obvious about 'finishing a show on a high', a wee bit too toeing the line for my liking. And making the announcement just before the third series is quite tacky as well. He might as well run round the streets shouting 'watch my show on Thursday!' as if we weren't going to already.

And anyway, I thoiught Miami Twice was superb.

[Munday's Chylde]

And anyway, I thoiught Miami Twice was superb.

WHAT?!

To this thread with you.

[Jemble Fred]

And anyway, I thoiught Miami Twice was superb.

WHAT?!

To this thread with you.

What? I mean to say, what the fuck? What are you somehow trying to say for fuck's sake?

[Neil]

Hang on, is Miami Vice the one where they get a holiday abroad by pretending Rodney is a kid?  Cause I rather liked that too.

Hated every moment of the second series of Black Books, it was sheer disappointment after the largely excellent first series, and I've never felt the need to revisit it.  Has it even been repeated though?  Hopefully this series will be a lot better than the last.  What was the score with Graham Linehan leaving it anyway, wasn't he meant to be working on a movie?  Whatever became of that?  If this is genuinely going to be the final series then it's a shame they couldn't have dragged him back.

[Jemble Fred]

No, Miami Twice was basically the OFAH 'Movie'. The one where there's a Don who looks exactly like Delboy. Okay, so 'superb' is putting it too strongly, on reflection the amount of coincidence in the plot is a bit daft, but I personally found it very entertaining, and thought there was quite enough OFAH up to the 'final' trilogy, where they became millionaires. Bringing them back since was a mistake, of course.

Munday's Chylde said:

WHAT?!

You know nothing. Keep it to yourself.

[Darrell]

Hang on, is Miami Vice the one where they get a holiday abroad by pretending Rodney is a kid?  Cause I rather liked that too.

That's 'The Unlucky Winner Is...', which is from series 6, and is great. I was screengrabbing it the other day for obvious reasons.

'Miami Twice' is the appalling TV film thing where there's a Mafia boss that looks like Del and depressingly jokeless 'antics' ensue. Even worse on the video, mind, due to the inane and pointless canned laugher they've dubbed onto it really badly.

As for Black Books, I didn't think they'd go past a third series anyway, though I always imagined they'd finish on a proper Christmassy Christmas special for some reason. I thought there was plenty of good in the second series - the 'I hated every minute of S2 whereas S1 was perfect' argument often rears its misremembered head here as it does with IAP etc. It's essentially grounded in truth (series 1 does have the edge quality-wise), but it's a gross exaggeration.

[TotalNightmare]

So anyway...

I saw the Simon Pegg episode and thought it was fannytastic. Like most people on the board, i feel the second series was very hit and miss. Now, whether this episode i saw was one of the hits out of the misses, i cannot say. Although i do have a few chums who went to see more of the series recorded than i. They said it was a high standard, so i will put my faith in them.

And i didnt like Miami Twice either. But then, ive never been the biggest supporter of OFAH anyway, so its a bit of a mute point from me.

Ta ta

[Neil]

'Miami Twice' is the appalling TV film thing where there's a Mafia boss that looks like Del and depressingly jokeless 'antics' ensue. Even worse on the video, mind, due to the inane and pointless canned laugher they've dubbed onto it really badly.

Nope, don't think I've ever seen that one then!  Doesn't sound familiar from your or Jemfreds description.

I thought there was plenty of good in the second series - the 'I hated every minute of S2 whereas S1 was perfect' argument often rears its misremembered head here as it does with IAP etc. It's essentially grounded in truth (series 1 does have the edge quality-wise), but it's a gross exaggeration.

As someone who did hate every minute of Black Books 2 I would put this down to the massive disappointment of the second series.  Some people may well have enjoyed Manny playing the piano with spoons but the whole tone of the series was wrong for me, and it's easy to hate a show that changes so much from one series to the next.  A good example I can recall is the one with Bernard going all giggly and silly over a woman which is not what you'd ever have expected from the character that was built up in series 1.  

If I revisited it I would perhaps find things to like about it, but I haven't, therefore I go on what I do recall, which is that I hated it.  As for IAP 2, there were pages and pages on how shit it was at the time of the original transmission, although it did get recieved slightly better when people rewatched it on video or saw the repeat.  There's some truth in what you say, but you're sailing dangerously close to Recieved Opinion Land.

[Darrell]

All I'm doing is bemoaning Second Series Syndrome, where people collate all their memories of the highlights of the first series into one and want every episode of the second series to be as good if not better than that. It's a common problem, everyone does it. But it does lead to 'series 1 was perfect and series 2 was utterly without even the slightest merit' crazy talk, which rather clouds any other discussion of it.

[mrpants]

I know someone who's seen the third series, and he reckons that it's on a par with the first.  All these episodes are written by Dylan Moran and Kevin Cecil and Andy Riley who also wrote some of the Armando Iannucci shows.

[Neil]

I doubt people were doing it when, for instance, the second series of Father Ted was shown.  Or Fawlty Towers etc.  It'd be interesting to see though!  Yeah I get what you're saying, but a lot of people don't bother revisiting shows just to check that they were indeed shit.  And IAP and Black Books are arguably bad examples to prove your point, although to be fair they're probably both hated for very different reasons.  IAP 2 suffered for being too similar to the first series, and Black Books 2 for being so far removed from the first! :)

With IAP2 I still only remember really laughing at the Real IRA gag...is it worth revisiting then?  

Stating the obvious here, but this does again boil down to whether or not you want to pick diamonds out of a turd.  Some folks want to see the good in bad shows, and others don't see why they should waste their time discussing the merits of other-wise deeply flawed shows.

[Purple Tentacle]

With IAP2 I still only remember really laughing at the Real IRA gag...is it worth revisiting then?  

Speaking as someone who was INCREDIBLY dissapointed with IAP2, only to enjoy it a lot more on the repeat, I would say yes.


Mr Iannucci was spot-on when he said that IAP2 was a "BBC1" sitcom, and without the burden of expectation, or the expectation that it was going to be in any way groundbreaking, I just sat back and let it wash over me for half an hour.


There are plenty of classic scenes that really tickled me on the second viewing, like Alan being upset at Sonya for sitting the giant bear next to her on the bus, "because people might think that I've had another breakdown", Lynn's friend pretending to be Bono Vox, Dan Dan Dan Dan, the cup of beans......


Definitely definitely worth a no pressure second viewing. No salespersons will call, you will not have to answer any questions about your health..........

[Darrell]

I doubt people were doing it when, for instance, the second series of Father Ted was shown.  Or Fawlty Towers etc.

It definitely happened with Fawlty Towers, it's possibly the first documented case of the phenomenon. And as everyone knows, the second series is hardly worse than the first. Didn't stop the reviewers and the general public from bemoaning an imaginary quality drop in 1979.

Memory can cheat. Second Series Syndrome does happen.

[Munday's Chylde]

And anyway, I thoiught Miami Twice was superb.

WHAT?!

To this thread with you.

What? I mean to say, what the fuck? What are you somehow trying to say for fuck's sake?

I was somehow trying to say that I on the other hand didn't think Miami Twice was superb - I thought it was the worst OFAH ever.

This I maintain.

[Frinky]

I saw the series finale episode being filmed (the last ever, then?) and I really enjoyed it - there was a lot of potential to make a great episode from what I saw. The interesting thing is that in the long trailers C4 are running for it, there are a few clips from "my" show - and most of them are jokes they had to repeat 3 or 4 times, which were much funnier in thier original incarnation - so I'll be interested to see how it actually forms an episode, I've seen QI being filmed but thats a whole different kettle of fish.

I'll be sorry to see it go, but I think it could really work as a stage show.

[Gavin]

All I'm doing is bemoaning Second Series Syndrome, where people collate all their memories of the highlights of the first series into one and want every episode of the second series to be as good if not better than that. It's a common problem, everyone does it. But it does lead to 'series 1 was perfect and series 2 was utterly without even the slightest merit' crazy talk, which rather clouds any other discussion of it.

Tell me about the second series of Phoenix Nights then, Darrell.

[Neil]

This isn't a go at you, Darrell, but I'm really not at all keen on these all-inclusive terms like "Second Series Syndrome" as they tend to be wheeled out instead of engaging in a discussion.  What's more confusing is that people who snap at any hint of a media cliche seem to almost have their own language full of these terms?!

[jimbobsyouruncle]

I'm someone who loved the first series, missed then second (cause I was out of the country) and is now looking forwards to the 3rd...

Doe this mean I'm gonna get "Third Series Syndrome" instead ?  And then find the 2nd series great when I watch it after it comes out on DVD...

(in a couple of weeks by the way...)http://playcom.at/cookdandbombd?DURL=http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=R2&title=147940&p=57&c=&g=72

[jutl]

I doubt people were doing it when, for instance, the second series of Father Ted was shown.  Or Fawlty Towers etc.

It definitely happened with Fawlty Towers, it's possibly the first documented case of the phenomenon. And as everyone knows, the second series is hardly worse than the first. Didn't stop the reviewers and the general public from bemoaning an imaginary quality drop in 1979.

Memory can cheat. Second Series Syndrome does happen.

Yes - I'd have to agree, although I think it's a feature of the small writing teams used by British comedy. US comedy shows often only hit their stride after a series or two, when the writing team has adapted to the feedback from the audience. Over here, your talented comic writer will spoo all their best ideas into a first series, then perhaps have difficulty finding enough decent, non-repetitive material for a second one. Spaced & Black Books spring to mind as second series which were only goodish in comparison with their older brothers...

IAP 2 was a different matter though (for me). It was as though they were taking the piss ought of the contrivedness of some of Alan's embarassing situations. I could see t his happening with CYE as well - there's a thin line between an audience joyfully squealing : "Oh No!" and the same audience muttering: "What the fuck?"

Another classic mistake people over here seem to make is allowing Graham Linehan to leave after a firts series.

[chand]

Spaced & Black Books spring to mind as second series which were only goodish in comparison with their older brothers...

That's a weird thing, cos while the second series of Black Books I recall being quite patchy, I've never really noted any dip in quality between the two series of Spaced and I still enjoy them pretty much equally.

Sounds like there may be a third series of Spaced in production by the end of 2004, too.

[jutl]

Spaced & Black Books spring to mind as second series which were only goodish in comparison with their older brothers...

That's a weird thing, cos while the second series of Black Books I recall being quite patchy, I've never really noted any dip in quality between the two series of Spaced and I still enjoy them pretty much equally.

Sounds like there may be a third series of Spaced in production by the end of 2004, too.

Spaced 2 was still good - it was

(a) the wry reference overdrive
(b) the tank-stealing

that marked it out for me as a little played out...

[butnut]

Spaced & Black Books spring to mind as second series which were only goodish in comparison with their older brothers...

That's a weird thing, cos while the second series of Black Books I recall being quite patchy, I've never really noted any dip in quality between the two series of Spaced and I still enjoy them pretty much equally.

Sounds like there may be a third series of Spaced in production by the end of 2004, too.

I'd have to agree with you. Although when I first saw the 2nd series of Spaced, I thought it had lost some of the magic. But when I saw it again, I really liked it. I'd say it's just as funny as the first now.

[Jemble Fred]

I think it's worth pasting the entire Indy interview that the previous story came from:

ttle shop of horrors

There's no hugging or learning in Black Books. As the show returns for a new series on Channel 4, James Rampton meets the stars of a decidedly ill-natured comedy

09 March 2004


It's the start of a new series of Black Books, and its central character, the terminally curmudgeonly bookshop-owner Bernard Black (played by the show's creator and co-writer, Dylan Moran), is having a very bad-hair day indeed. After an unfortunate incident with a sandwich-toaster, he has fallen out catastrophically with Manny (Bill Bailey), the loyal assistant whose full-time job is to keep Bernard on the rails. Manny has stormed out to work for Evan (Simon Pegg), the control-freak manager of Goliath Books next door, leaving Bernard to fend for himself.

The result is not pretty. Bernard has let things go spectacularly in the shop, and visitors must negotiate a dead badger by the front door. He has taken to cleaning his teeth with the brush from the dustpan and refuses to heed the warning: "You can't survive on the mushrooms growing in your hair." Slipping into a slough of despond, he rejects the peace-making attempts of the third corner of Black Books' eternal triangle, his neighbour Fran (Tamsin Greig), and persists in blaming Manny for "robbing me of my best years and leaving me a burnt-out husk".

Clearly, Bernard is not the sort of man you would want to accompany on a long Andean walking-holiday. Even Moran, who dreamt up the fellow, says, with a clear look of distaste on his face: "I really don't like Bernard at all - he's a dreadful character. As him, my face hardens and I wear a permanent vinegar-puss look. I'm like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle." And yet - perversely - Bernard remains one of the funniest sitcom creations of the past decade. Like David Brent or Basil Fawlty, the more troubled he is, the happier we are.

The principal cast-members of Black Books are gathered in the suitably sleazy surroundings of a run-down pub in central London. It's a serious boozers' boozer. We are sitting round a stained and scuffed table, inside yellowing walls that have seen very much better days. Moran has rejected the proffered white wine on the perfectly reasonable grounds that "it tastes like they use it to clean the pipes". He seems much more content in the presence of a pint of Guinness and a packet of fags. All in all, this is the ideal milieu in which to discuss the delightfully dissolute sitcom.

So, just why does one man's misery make the rest of us laugh so heartily? Moran reckons we have to give a pat on the back to our German friend Schadenfreude. "If someone said: 'We've just come back from our holiday and we had the time of our lives - the food was incomparable; we made love every 45 minutes and got completely bronzed', you'd be bored rigid," speculates the Irish comedian, a former Perrier award- winner, who embarks on a live tour later this spring. "But if they told you that they got robbed the moment they stepped off the plane, their hotel wasn't built, and they got diarrhoea for a fortnight, you'd be happy to buy them a drink and hear the rest of their story." We derive equivalent pleasure from witnessing the convulsions of pain experienced by the three central characters in Black Books. Bernard's impotent, self-defeating fury is especially amusing.

"People get a buzz out of watching Bernard go postal," says Moran, who also starred in Simon Nye's blissful rural sitcom How Do You Want Me?. "There is a vicarious thrill in watching someone else say the things you'd like to but would never dare. It's like Bernard has Tourette syndrome - he just can't keep his conduct in check. Like Victor Meldrew, he gives vent to his spleen; he doesn't bottle it up. People admire that - especially in England."

Bernard strikes such a chord because we have all been in that situation of futilely raging against the machine. "Every day, most of us encounter a miasma of small tasks and difficulties that enrage us," Moran continues. "A bus that's late is no less annoying because it's late for the 10th time. The sheer repetitive strain of life warps people. Bernard has just been pushed too far by these strains. He wants to stop the world and hand in his complaint."

The other two characters are equally hopeless. Like the trio condemned to live together in eternal damnation in Jean-Paul Sartre's Huis Clos - the play that gave the world the deathless phrase: "Hell is other people" - there is no possibility of escape for this desperate triumvirate. "You could put those three anywhere," Moran comments, "and they'd slowly destroy each other. This sort of cruelty is very common. Couples enjoy upping the bickering. Idle badinage soon turns into an Edward Albee play that was left in the drawer. They start trying out new material over the breakfast table - 'Let me count the ways you disgust me...' That's one of the best marital lines!"

Greig, whose voice is familiar to millions as Debbie Aldridge in the world's longest-running radio soap, The Archers, remarks that Bernard, Manny and Fran are "stuck in a painful loop - but they can't get out of it because that would be even more painful. They're like Eric and Ernie, for ever stuck in bed together. They can't live with each other and they can't live without each other. The comedy lies in the fact that things will always be the same. The only thing that changes is that we're constantly thinking up new ways to hurt Manny!"

Bailey, a Never Mind the Buzzcocks team captain, who is also doing a live tour this spring, eagerly takes up the theme. Comparing the trio in Black Books to Laurel and Hardy, Tom and Jerry or Steptoe and Son, he asserts: "They're terrified of being alone. They put up with a lot because the alternative is too horrific. That's true of a lot of relationships, isn't it?"

Off screen, the trio exhibit the same relish of language and off-the-wall imagery as their on-screen characters. An interview with these three is a two-hour verbal fireworks display. Launching into a typical flight of fantasy, Moran likens the characters' mutually parasitic relationship to "this fish I read about. The male, who is 10 times smaller than the female, bites the underside of his mate and remains there for the rest of his life, feeding off her nutrients. I think that's a useful analogy for the people in Black Books. We're the same as those useless male fish."

Swift to extend the joke, Bailey chimes in: "I always like the female praying mantis, which will bite the head off its male partner in mid-copulation. Apparently, after that has happened, he just keeps going. I must admit that when I read that, I felt a twinge of male pride. Blokes are great!"

"Yes," Moran agrees. "It's like he's saying: 'I took all night to pull - I'm not going to let a little thing like losing my head get in the way now.' "

Black Books abides by Seinfeld's famous mantra: no hugging; no learning. "You certainly can't do hugging or learning on Black Books," Greig says, clearly horrified by the very thought of it. "If you hugged Bernard or Manny, you'd get a disease!"

Moran chips in: "God forbid that anyone should learn anything in Black Books. The series makes no social point whatsoever. It's an exercise in accelerated time-wasting. I couldn't cobble together a message even if I were given an eternity and any amount of paint and banners."

Furthermore, Moran continues, Black Books is a corrective to the forced jollity of American shiny-happy-people comedies such as Friends. "It's an antidote to the cleanliness and brightness of those American sitcoms that are constantly shown on a loop. You don't have to wear sunglasses when you're watching Black Books. You know that Bernard is the sort of person whose fridge contains just one cup of lard. We're not going to be bringing out any Black Books kitchenware."

Many fans will be mortified to find out that this will probably be the last series. According to Moran, "We wouldn't want to feel we were tickling up a horse that just wants to die. You don't want to get the feeling that you're pumped up on steroids while supported by very thin legs that are going to collapse at any minute." There's that trademark linguistic relish again.

"We don't want to stretch it beyond its natural life," interjects Bailey, a man who boasts what can only be described as a Catweazle hairstyle, "like they did when they took Only Fools and Horses to Miami."

Barely pausing for breath, Moran carries on: "I don't subscribe to the idea of providing more of the same. You have to keep constantly trying to push things and keep the material alive. It's death to an artist to think: 'That went well - now I'll try and do the same thing again.' "

But the hordes of Black Books aficionados out there may well be relieved to hear that Moran is not writing off the show completely. "We have talked about a stage version of Black Books," he reveals. "We might do it if one of us needs an organ transplant. I don't know whether it'll be the lungs or the liver first."

"We could call it the Save Dylan's Kidneys Tour," Bailey adds, helpfully.

"Or we might be like Steptoe and Son when they did a live show," says Moran, unable to resist one last gag. "Hilariously, when they toured Australia, they weren't even speaking and had no show at all. Harry H Corbett would cover by going on stage and juggling while Wilfred Brambell was standing at the bar, getting drunk out of his mind.

"Bill and I could be like that. He could be getting pissed at the bar while I'd be out there doing the dance of the seven veils with a pineapple balanced on my head."

I, for one, would certainly buy a ticket to see that.

'Black Books' starts on Channel 4 on Thursday at 10pm

Partly because I found it a joy to read, but also because it puts the previous quotes in context. Okay, so they say this will be the last series, but, be fair, they're saying this just before the show airs, over a few drinks in a shabby little pub. I'd hardly call that gospel, and thank god. You can't tell me there isn't at least one more series of funny plots set around a bookshop to do? You can't tell me that Bernard and co would be boring if we saw more than 18 half hours of their lives?

Well, you can, but I couldn't agree. Presuming series three is as good as I hope it will be, that is.

[The Region Legion]

Spaced 2 was still good - it was

(a) the wry reference overdrive
(b) the tank-stealing

that marked it out for me as a little played out...

(c) the Matrix parody

[Sam]

The other two characters are equally hopeless. Like the trio condemned to live together in eternal damnation in Jean-Paul Sartre's Huis Clos - the play that gave the world the deathless phrase: "Hell is other people" - there is no possibility of escape for this desperate triumvirate.

That reference struck me as a bit irrelevant. Smacked of "Oooh, er, look at me--I'm an intellectual and have read books and stuff". We are all familair with the phrase "Hell is other people" and I dare say that most of us know the origin as well. There was no need to give that amount of detail: a simple allusion to the phrase would have been enough. Sloppy journalism. Or am I being uber-pedentic?