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March 28, 2024, 08:01:34 PM

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The Motorsport Thread

Started by Ambient Sheep, December 07, 2005, 12:59:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

TOCMFIC

It's always fun to watch them claw back the grip they've lost from various changes. The cars are looking awesome this year. Fuck, I even like the Ferrari. (Except when Schumacher's sitting in it. God I want Massa to own his ass.) The McLaren though... Stunning. If the way a car looks had any bearing on the championship, the other teams may as well concede now...

I've also heard one of the V8's, and my worry about it sounding like a sexually frustrated wasp has been put to rest. They sound, dare I say it, deeper with more bass to them than the V10's.

Really curious to see where this season goes.

So, shall we have a laugh and make some predictions for the year?

RFT

I can;t stand all these mini-wings all over the cars- most modern F1 cars (especially that toyota) look a mess, frankly.

a few fans had hoped that the reduced power of the V8s might have forced a bit of a lceanup to reduce drag but that certaibnly doesn;t look the case here.

The Mclaren, I like- it's a much cleaner design.

Predictions?  the new series brings up more questions than firm bases for predictions- practically every team on the grid has had a fairly major change in the off-season, or has one coming at the end of this one. but I'll have a stab anyway.

Team-by-team

Renault:
Reigning champions, but with alonso leaving and the effect that'll have had on relations between him and briatore, that's going to eat into the competitiveness...
Mclaren:
on the face of it looking at another 2005- great chassis, lots of engine trouble- but also facing uncertainties over drivers.
Williams:
Freed from BMW, and with the cossie still being talked of as an impressive motor, I reckon they'll do well, particularly in the first few races.
Ferrari:
I've nto seen any reason to think massa's going to challenge schumacher, and if they don;t start out well, I can;t see schuey being at all motivated for another season of struggling
Honda:
Rubens Vs Jenson will be a real test for both of them- Jenson has to win a race this year to retain credibility, and rubens has a serious point to prove as well. this'll probably br the most interesting scrap between team-mates of the year.
Red Bull:
Another solid, if unspectacular season. Coulthard's certainly up for it, but it'll be a while until the adrian newey infulence starts to appear on the car.
Toyota:
they've moved forward every year since starting out, and may even pick up a win, but I don;t think they're about to do it consitently. will probably end up scrapping with honda.
Midland:
might get a point or two. Under normal circumstances I'd expet them to be ahead of Toro Rosso, but with worse reliability (I have a suspicion that anyone running "customer" engines this year is going to act as a semi-willing testbed for the riskier engine developments.
Toro Rosso:
very hard to know- the car's clearly not a development of the minardi, and according to the lawyers it isn;t just last year's red bull. If they beat anyone but aguri, i;m sure midland'll protest and get the engine restricted further.
Super Aguri:
Until they get their new chassis, they'll just be comic relief. with a new chassis, who knows? could leapfrog STR and Midland.
BMW
Last chance for Jacques, but I suspect he's only been kept on as it would have cost Munich too much to buy him out of his contract. they're being careful not to talk up thier chances- and this is probably right. I suspect they'll be mid-field with red bull by the end of the year.

The whole field could be shaken up a lot. so much depends on the engine boys getting the v8s sorted out, and some manufacturers are still struggling. less than a month to go and ferrari are still running both V8s and V10s.

BagJob

I have heard a V8 powered McLaren "in the flesh" at a Silverstone test last year. I have to say that it doesn't really sound much different. Still *!%*ing loud as hell and does sound like a proper racing engine.

I agree with RFT about the cars looking messy with all these little wings and scoops and things. The cars seem to sprout more of them each year and cars from just a few seasons to seem to look 'cleaner' although less futuristic.

For this coming season I'm just hoping for the top teams to be very closely matched, thereby giving some highly competitive and entertaining races.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Do they still have the 107% rule in qualifying? That could affect Aguri for the first half of the season whilst they're still running the old arrows car.

22 cars in F1 for the first time in ages is fine by me though. In fact I've always disagreed with the blue flag rule for backmarkers as well. I think they should be able to hold up the cars in front- it's still a race, after all.

The midfield is going to be very very close this season- Toyota/Williams/Honda/Red Bull/BMW are going to have lots of controversy this season. It's going to get bitterly competitive as the sponsors know they'll only be a matter of a few points seperating them all. Toyota and Honda look like the best bets but that's only on past performance.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"Do they still have the 107% rule in qualifying?
Not since 2002.  Once single-lap qualifying was brought in for 2003, the 107% rule was abolished, as it might have meant too many cars being left off the grid if something went wrong on their single laps.  And of course it would make no sense with variable-fuel qualifying either.

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"That could affect Aguri for the first half of the season whilst they're still running the old arrows car.
Should only be the first three races, hopefully.

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"The midfield is going to be very very close this season- Toyota/Williams/Honda/Red Bull/BMW are going to have lots of controversy this season.
Controversy?  All of them?

The main controversy is going to be with STR, because their car does look fearfully like last year's RB1, AND they're deliberately running the restricted V10 engine (created as a loophole for Minardi) when they could easily install a V8 from somewhere.  There will be protests...

Apart from that, I can't think of any likely controversy, as such.

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"Toyota and Honda look like the best bets but that's only on past performance.
Well Honda have been testing extremely well.  It looks as if the pecking order this year might be Renault, Honda, Williams, Ferrari, McLaren (at least until Mercedes sort that hideous engine out), with Toyota slotting in there somewhere, but since I haven't heard anything about their performance since they unveiled that new aero package, I'm not sure where.

TOCMFIC

There IS a new rule being bought in for qualifying this year, akin to the 107% rule, but for the life of me I don't remember it now. (It's in this months F1 magazine.)

Right, time for me to shoot a load... of predictions.

Renault

I think Alonso's decision to leave will impact the team more than anyone has figured. I really think the team is going to be massively destabilsed. Not to mention Flav is pissed because Alonso did all this without his involvement. Plus Renault run two different teams for designing the car. So this years car will be done by the 2003 crew, so I expect the team to win, but neither driver will be champion.

McLaren

Montoya's year. Monty had a bad year, missed some races etc... But I think this year will see him settled, especially with the possibility of Raikkonen leaving for the Scarlet Menace. If Kimi is leaving, Monty has this year to make himself number one. If Kimi stays, he's got to keep his job. Montoya performs best under pressure, and while I don't think he's gonna be champion, he's going to close match or beat Kimi this year. Don't expect Kimi to be champion either.

Ferrari

Schumacher will win the title. Why? Because the universe fucking hates me and won't let Schumacher retire without ruining one more season for me. Seriously, I do think he's going to win. Bridgestone have had their advantage handed back to them by the FIA, since heaven forbid Ferrari should suck for two straight seasons. Plus I know what Montezemelo is like. He won't allow another season like 2005 to happen on his watch. I fully expect Ferrari to annihilate the opposition this year.

Williams

Will be the surprise of the season. Everyone wrote them off when BMW announced their departure from the team. However, you've got Webber who, traction control abuse aside, is a reasonably competent driver. Plus you've got Nico Rosberg who a lot of folk think is gonna be the equal of his father. I expect Nico to be fast from the start, and Webber is gonna have to raise his game. Through in a simple yet effective aero package, and an engine from perhaps the best racing V8 engine maker of all time, and I think they're gonna surprise a lot of people. Plus, let's not forget, Williams represent probably the greatest of English grit and determination in the paddock, and are one of the few teams left that seem to put racing above all else. Plus, with the works deal vanishing, what does this mean? Williams just essentially became a privateer team again! GO WILLIAMS!

Toyota

Another season of dollars not equalling success. No wins, but a couple of poles. Expect this year to be much like last year, only with Trulli being more dominant.

Red Bull

I expect to see DC on the podium at least once. On race day, I think Red Bull and Toyota will be about the same, scrapping over the middle of the points order.

Honda

This is it for Jenson. He's got a proven race winner next to him. A guy who was never given a fair shot at Ferrari. In the off season, Rubens and Jenson have become close friends (this months F1 magazine has a big piece on them.) I expect that to last until Monaco. You can't be best mates with your teammate, end of story. Rubens is gonna win this. I hope the team does well though. I have a massive soft spot for Honda. Plus it's nice to see the Tyrrell team finally morph into something worthy of Ken's legacy.

BMW

Don't expect much from them. They've got the lodestone of Villeneuve weighing them down. Any way you slice it, Villeneuve is a has been. A few decent performances late last year doesn't warrant a ride in the BMW. The impression I get is they were forced into it by the contract, and Pollock threatening lawsuits. Not a good base for their first season. 2006 will be a holding pattern as the team switches from Sauber to BMW. Miracles don't happen overnight in F1. (Unless you're Ivan Capelli in a March anyway). 2007 will be a very different story.

Midland

With rumours he was trying to dump the team as early as midseason last year, the Russian owner (who I really don't care to even remember his name) is taking the piss. A joke team. Don't even care what they do. Despite being somewhat annoyed with Eddie Jordan since he dumped Frentzen, he was a character. They're now just a generic cookie cutter team I couldn't give a toss about.

Toro Rosso

Well, the little team that could has, finally, bitten the dust. So long Minardi, and so long to the most interesting person in the pitlane, Paul Stoddart. As the baby Red Bull team, I expect the team to vault over the lacklustre Midland team, but not much further. The car design is a loophole, as it's based on the Jaguar, NOT the Red Bull I believe.

(Not so) Super Aguri

Running a four year old chassis from a bankrupt team, I don't really need to state the obvious. I know there's big plans, but the crew behind Honda are pissed at having to help this red headed stepchild. That much was evident from reports last year. Best guess: SA will be gone from F1 by 2008. Honda can't split their efforts between two teams effectively in my opinion.

Summary

I think there are going to be less changes than folk imagine there will be. Perhaps a surprise or two, especially at Williams, but I think the status quo will stay largely the same, with Ferrari assuming the Renault mantle as the latter slides a little.

Watch me proved completely wrong in two weeks time:) (My track record on predictions is pitiful BTW.)

TOCMFIC

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"22 cars in F1 for the first time in ages is fine by me though. In fact I've always disagreed with the blue flag rule for backmarkers as well. I think they should be able to hold up the cars in front- it's still a race, after all.

I agree wholeheartedly. "You're paid X million dollars, you fucking pass him." Back in the day (the era of Clark etc...) the flag was a courtesy thing. "There's a car behind you. Consider moving aside old chap." Now it's the "Schumacher's behind you, get out the way or we'll ruin your race." It's the ultimate representation of the pecking order in F1. It's like asking the San Marino goalie to step aside so the seventh goal gets a clear shot.

I've always felt it's bloody unfair. The lower teams, who NEED to battle for every dollar, get fucked over so the fat cats at the front get an easy ride. Scrap the flag, and make the fuckers work for it. Remember Coulthard stuck behind Bernoldi for 40 laps at Monaco? That was for position, so gives a great example of why they still use the fucking rule. Can you imagine Senna being stuck there for 40 laps? Mansell? Not bloody likely!

Todays top drivers are fucking whiny little bitches the instant something goes against them. That's why I loved one lap qualifying. No more "Wah! Wah! I was blocked on my fast lap!" Coulthard was by far the worst for endless bitching about that. And now we've pretty much gone back to it. Guarantee that by race two, all the old bitching and moaning returns.

gazzyk1ns

I meant to ask you about Webber and the traction control thing when you mentioned it on a previous occasion, can you really hear it kicking in around corners? What does it sound like? Or is it just that it cuts back on (or holds) the revs? If so, how can you be sure it's the traction control doing it, as opposed to him?

Also - surely traction control slows you down? OK, so it wouldn't slow down the Williams to Minardi-type speeds so you could say it was an unfair advantage over the likes of them, but looking at his results, Webber can't be that bad.

He did a great lap in Top Gear's Liana on a wet track, too :)

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "gazzyk1ns"I meant to ask you about Webber and the traction control thing when you mentioned it on a previous occasion, can you really hear it kicking in around corners? What does it sound like? Or is it just that it cuts back on (or holds) the revs? If so, how can you be sure it's the traction control doing it, as opposed to him?
It's a farty sort of sound, I'm surprised you've never heard it on telly when Martin Brundle's pointed it out.  It sounds the way it does because they do it by retarding or even (especially in the early days) cutting the ignition of a cylinder or two, in order to reduce power.  Don't ask me why they do it that way rather than just reducing the throttle (i.e. injecting less fuel) - perhaps because it provides more engine braking quickly?  I dunno.

Then again, i read something the other day that said just taking your foot off the throttle of an F1 car going full-pelt down a straight gives a deceleration of 1G, i.e. like a full-on emergency stop in a road car.

Maybe the method grew out of the way it was first introduced (i.e., "under the counter") in that changing the engine map on the fly was something that was a lot less detectable to FIA scrutineers than tweaking the throttle.  Nah, that sounds bollocks, doesn't it?  I'm bullshitting.  I feel I know the answer to this, but my tired brain isn't producing it.

Quote from: "gazzyk1ns"Also - surely traction control slows you down?
A little bit - it's better if you can coax the car round the corner so that it doesn't need to use it, so in a way it still rewards greater driver skill.  But obviously doesn't slow you down as much as doing a massive slide across the track and bumping over the rumble strip does.  :-)

gazzyk1ns

Thinking about it, I've probably assumed too much from what I know about the traction control in modern road cars. I just thought that an F1 driver (or team) who relied on their TC through most corners would be ridiculed fairly quickly.

TOCMFIC

I've got a ton of onboard footage, you guys want me to try and dig out a sequence to demonstrate what I mean?

TC allows you to mash the throttle to the floor and let the computer sort it out. The GOOD drivers still feather the throttle and try and control it themselves. I've noticed with Kimi you rarely hear the TC kick in. Obviously the different engines sound different when the TC kicks in, and the farting sound description is perfect for it.

I'll see if I can dig up a good example. I've got rips of the German onboard feeds from about half of both 2004 and 2005. Those lucky shites get regular coverage, and a channel that shows the race purely from onboard cameras. It's absolutely amazing to watch, it really is. No commentary, no graphics... Just the onboard shots and the engines. Magnificent.

Happy to upload some onboard stuff for you fine people if you wish.

gazzyk1ns

I love on-board footage, that would be great, cheers! Don't go to too much trouble though!

TOCMFIC

Well I've got entire races I could upload to FileFactory or something. For a long time I've been meaning to go through all the stuff I have and edit together a compilation of the best bits.

Must frustrating race was Nurburgring last year. They'd been riding onboard with Kimi, then as they come up to the last corner ready to start the lap where his suspension broke, they cut to Alonso's car...

TOCMFIC

Okay, found all my onboard races, but they're at least 700 megs each. Most are 1.4 gigs! So I'm gonna have to do some editing and re-encoding, but that's okay, since I want to do a compilation anyway.  Gives me an excuse to go through them all.

Thought I'd lost the Turkey one, but I found it thankfully. Turn 8. Awesome!

TOCMFIC

Right then my fellow petrolheads, here's a wee little treat for you I just clipped out. Still searching for the goods on Webber. I MIGHT (might) have maligned him, and it's actually a Williams issue, not him, but I gotta find more footage first to clarify. Justice will prevail.

Anyway, for lovers of onboard, here's the start and first lap of the Turkish GP. Onboard with Fernando, then Kimi, then back to Fernando. (Who seems to fuck a gear change at the end of the lap. Didn't think that was possible anymore?!)

The file is 26 megs. Plenty more where this came from if there's enough interest:) I could probably make it smaller, but it's just a direct clip. No reencoding.

Enjoy! (Megaupload opens a porn popup sometimes, so consider yourself warned. Also, when the countdown ends, the links thing pops up OVER the download link because Megaupload are tossers, so you've got to hit the little X at the top of it to close to actually get the download.)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEUKUHIO

BagJob

Great clip! Thanks TOCMFIC!

If you watch when he fucks up the gear change you'll see that he is adjusting one of the knobs on the steering wheel. Perhaps he had extra power for the start and had to turn the wick down a bit after the first lap?! Anyway it's a great clip, thanks.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteI agree wholeheartedly. "You're paid X million dollars, you fucking pass him." Back in the day (the era of Clark etc...) the flag was a courtesy thing. "There's a car behind you. Consider moving aside old chap." Now it's the "Schumacher's behind you, get out the way or we'll ruin your race." It's the ultimate representation of the pecking order in F1. It's like asking the San Marino goalie to step aside so the seventh goal gets a clear shot.

Yeah, I completely agree with that too. You rightly pointed out that nowadays backmarkers have to really go out of their way to slow down and make a clear move over to let the other guy through. And depending on how badly their car is doing, they have to do it at least once a lap. If they're slower cars anyway, this is an unfair handicap. It really isn't a very pleasant rule the more you inspect it. Drivers should have to pass backmarkers on their own merit and backmarkers should be able to defend their position too, I think.

QuoteControversy? All of them?

What I meant is that I think because the midfield are so close this year there will be controversy in various forms. I'm sure there'll be crashes and the usual "it was his fault" style japes, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few teams try and bend the rules a little like BAR did last year. With the gap between 4th and 9th place in the drivers championships being so closely contested and a lot of sponsors demanding success all the teams in the midfield are going to be looking over their shoulders half the time.

gazzyk1ns

Yeah that footage really is good TOCMFIC, cheers for that. Like you said it's great that there isn't any music or anything spoiling it.

BagJob

Ok, I've dug out one of my on-boards. This is one of my favourite clips, it's M Schumacher driving in the 2003 Brazilian GP. It shows a race restart after a safety car period. The track is very wet!

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YIZFZJGC ~14MB

TOCMFIC

Glad the clip is appreciated:) I'll try and put up a longer one today. See what I have. Not sure if I have any wet ones. Of course the problem with that is onboard is sketchy in the wet due to the helicopter not being able to fly.

Will check that Schumacher one out too. I remember that race:)

As for the blue flag, I don't think the backmarker should defend, that I will disagree with. But they shouldn't move over. They should just stick to their line so they don't lose any time. But if there's a battle on and they're fighting, then that's out the window. The faster car is just out of luck. It's kind of ironic they call it the pinnacle of motorsport, when this real test of skill is denied them.

Of course, let's look from the conspiracy theorist angle. "He deliberately held me up." But then if the rule was "stick to the line", those charges would be null and void anyway.

Here's something cool. I play Grand Prix Legends, and someone on Race Sim Central went to the trouble of finding the Motorsport race reports for every race from the 1967 season.

http://www.intothered.dk/1967season/67season_root.html

Will trawl more onboard stuff later:) Now, due to some weirdness in my browser, I have to fire up Opera just to download that Schumacher link.

TOCMFIC

Wow, that Schumacher clip is awesome!

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteQUALIFYING CHANGES
* A new three-part qualifying system will be used in 2006, replacing the old one-lap shoot-out.
* Qualifying will last one hour and drivers may put in as many laps as they want to during any of the three sessions as long as they haven't been eliminated.  
* The first session, which is 15-minutes long, will see all 22 drivers on track, each carrying a low fuel load. At the end of the session, the slowest six drivers will be eliminated and they will make up the final quarter of Sunday's grid filling the positions P17 to P22 in order of fastest to slowest.
* A five-minute break will follow.
* Following the break, the second 15-minute session will begin and the remaining 16 drivers will return to the track, once again carrying a low fuel load. At the end of the session, the slowest six will be eliminated and they will make up positions P11 to P16 on Sunday's grid in order of fastest to slowest.
* A five-minute break will follow.
* The final session, which is 20-minutes long, will see the final ten drivers battle for pole position. However, in this session they will have to carry the same amount of fuel that they plan to start the race with. The fastest driver will take P1, while the slowest will occupy P10 on the grid.
* And did you know: If you find this new format confusing don't worry, you're not alone. Max Mosley also doesn't understand it!  

The new qualifying system. Perhaps we'll all get used to it if they bother keeping it for more than a year this time.

TOCMFIC

It's interesting, but the one lap qualifying was more fun I think. From a commercial standpoint as well as visual. I mean how many times in the old days did we miss a fast lap? Sponsors got equal exposure in one lap qualifying. It was nice to see a driver go all out. Plus the weather threw up stuff like a Minardi being fastest, all the fast guys at the back. (Japan last year, which arguably was one of the best races in years.)

This new system will put the fast guys at the front. In an era when the cars can't overtake easily due to the aero, that means the fast guys just have to go fast, and there'll be even less racing. Hope I'm wrong...

I like the idea that someone put forward (forget who now) that qualifying is done as 2 10 lap races with reversed grids. Gives the punters a spectacle, and would be a very interesting format.

The other one being thrown around is that the grid for the next race is the result of the last race, reversed. As entertaining as that'd be, that just seems like a recipe for disaster with the slow, talentless drivers being at the front.

Will reserve judgement until we've seen the new format in action, but I think it's going to make for dull, predictable grids. Of course if Schumacher, Alonso or whoever throws it off the track in the first segment, they're fucked, which could be interesting.

The other dumb thing is the weather. Segment 1 and 2 run in the dry. When the new segment starts, the times are erased. So say the last segment is run in the wet, you'll wind up with a driver on pole who was actually slower than the guy in 22nd.

Ambient Sheep

On a rather different note, apparently Eddie Irvine is going out with Pamela Anderson, and is besotted, allegedly.

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_22201.shtml

gazzyk1ns

Isn't she slowly dying from hepatitis, because she refused treatment?

I'd make a pun pointing out that the word 'hepatitis' contains the word 'tit', but firstly it's not funny when you think about it and secondly, I'm sure it's been done before. Many many times.

TOCMFIC

So he's after Kid Rock's sloppy seconds? (Or Tommy Lee's sloppy thirds!)

Wonder if he knows she has hepatitis?

Will have a video for you lot later hopefully. Nothing fancy. Decided that 90 minutes of onboard was a little dull, so I'm using a program called Muvee. Fed it the Turkey onboard race, and have picked some tunes. It's now busily analysing and creating a video synced to the music. Kinda hard to get too exciting with the editing with standard onboard stuff, so it's just fading from one shot to another, but it'll compress the race down to about 20 minutes, and it actually works surprisingly well. Just kick back with the tunes and enjoy the ride.

Tried it with music and engine sounds, and it just didn't work, so doing music only this time.

Frinky

HIPPO TITS





my work here is done

TOCMFIC

Bumping this given the first race of the F1 season will be over in seven days.

My attempt to create the above mentioned video went wrong, so nothing to show:( However...

Download this: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T7E79FHD

I'm a Nurburgring Nordschleife junkie. I love racing it in games, and I love onboard cameras. That link is to a lap of the complete circuit (GP circuit plus the full Nordschleife) from onboard Hans Stuck's BMW M3 GTR in 2004. (My guess is it's from practice for the 24hr race there.)

I've seen many onboard laps of the Ring, but this one is absolutely stunning. He's REALLY pushing it. -

Put on some headphones, crank it up, and enjoy! Glorious!

gazzyk1ns

Quote from: "TOCMFIC"He's REALLY pushing it. -

You can say that again!

I've got on-board footage of non-pro (I assume) drivers taking a 911 GT3, and a 360 Modena around the Nordschleife (not including the GP track, IIRC). Also I've got Derek Bell in a Porsche 956. Say if you've not got them.

TOCMFIC

Glad you liked it:) I've seen a few of the amateur vids. The pro ones are much better quality. (Obviously.) As for Bell, I've got the entire video that one's taken from:) "In-Car 956" I think it's called. Most of them are a bit dull though.

Got about 8 more to watch here. One is VERY high quality (160 megs) from a Porsche race. Not watched the rest.

All I want now is to see a driver go round when it's very wet. I know at the 24hr race either last year or the year before, it actually hailed during the race, and snowed I think.

Edit: I don't think the great unwashed get to drive the GP circuit part.