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The Tumbleweed Awards 2005 - Results

Started by Neil, December 13, 2005, 07:06:36 PM

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Neil

Um, I think you should talk to your wife.  Something odd might be going on though, I'll grep the logs later and see if your post has been edited in any way.

guest benn

thanks. do i have to speak to my wife?  i hate you guys.


Neil

Quote from: "Anonymous"Hi.
Apologies in advance for what is enevitably going to be a rather angry post but - What do you imagine gives you the right to objectify your own tastes in comedy and turn it into some kind of criteria for what is 'good' and 'bad'. These things are opinions - you have no right to objectify them any more than Wooton, DOlan, Brooker or Morris does. But the thing is - they do and so do you, it seems.
You are doing exactly what you claim to be fighting against - i.e, claiming that your own personal tastes are the way things should be and trying to make them criterias for what other people should do (exactly like the people who make shit like spoons, balls of steel etc...) This is a very strange experience for me because I agree with everything, everything you are saying about the fucking ridiculously terrible state of british comedy, but reading all that, the way you've done it as if it represents objectivity - it made me so furious. What do you imagine gives you the right to do this? If you really feel you have this right then you're just like Wooton and should brake your own arms so you can't type anymore.

Hi, I'm sorry that it annoyed you so much, I can't quite understand why though.  People made similar objections before it was even finished...it's just a straw poll of the users of this site though, it's a round-up of what people like yourself thought of last years comedy output.  It's important to point that out, I think...the whole nomination process was conducted publically so that all the posters could shape the final list, and then the voting was left open for long enough that people who visit the site reguarly will have had a chance to participate.  Really, I'm not sure I can see much difference in it and the polls we run on every single page of the site from time to time!  Is there a difference?  

As for representing objectivity, you won't often find the phrase "IMHO" on here, and that's purely a short-cut.  It's really not something that needs to be stated as there is a tacit understanding that people are expressing their own opinions.

Ok, you say you agree with the views expressed in the Tumblies, but how would you have preferred to see them presented?

Anonymous

Quote from: "Neil"As for representing objectivity, you won't often find the phrase "IMHO" on here, and that's purely a short-cut. It's really not something that needs to be stated as there is a tacit understanding that people are expressing their own opinions.
Indeed, that's why. I think, I was so confused as to why it made me angry at all. It needs saying, boy does it need saying, but I just kind of thought (prepare yourself for an extremely naive, totally unevidenced and probably wrong statement!) why aren't you doing your own internet shows? To me that's the only way now. Forget television - its fucked, its gone, and no amount of polishing, rendering and packaging of the reasons for this is going to make it come back. IMHO :)

Quote from: "Neil"Ok, you say you agree with the views expressed in the Tumblies, but how would you have preferred to see them presented?
I agree with them down to every last comma. Again though, I don't know how they should have been expressed, sorry. I'm a frustrated fool with a big mouth, that's all. To me, tele's fucked forever but the internet isn't. Maybe I'm saying we shouldn't lower the internet to the level of television by using it as a tool to complain about it, rather we should...oh fuck knows. Maybe I should just shut up. I think so!

Dokii

Sure it's nice to sit around complaining about how shit comedy has become but come on......at least try and do something about it. What was the aim of these polls? You could have at least included some positive awards. It just looked to me like another way of slagging off Nathan Barley.

Neil

Quote from: "Dokii"Sure it's nice to sit around complaining about how shit comedy has become but come on......at least try and do something about it.

How and why should we do that?

QuoteWhat was the aim of these polls?

What is the aim of any poll?  To ascertain people's opinions, yes?

QuoteYou could have at least included some positive awards.

It would have been a real cop-out to include some tokenistic "positive awards."  And as others have said in Comedy Chat, do the British Comedy Awards feel obliged to include some negative awards?

QuoteIt just looked to me like another way of slagging off Nathan Barley.

Well it wasn't.

Dokii

Quote from: "Neil"
Quote from: "Dokii"

How and why should we do that?

I don't know, write a script maybe? Prove that you have something to back up your extreme arrogance in the field of comedy.

ffogems

It isn't arrogance though, particulary not extreme. It's about not putting up banners for every comedy and inviting people to come join the convivial party.
The tumbleweeds was doing something: it was trying to counteract the sycophantic, pointlessness of the ITV Comedy Awards. I believe the tumbleweed certificates have been, or are due to be, sent out to the 'winners'. This might rock some people's boats, and if it does, then that is surely something.
Sometimes it isn't as easy as writing a comedy script. Sometimes they get rejected because of percieved 'comedy agendas'*.




*Fuck you, Mr Gervais.

Neil

Quote from: "Dokii"I don't know, write a script maybe?

I don't want to.  I don't think I have the requisite talents to work in comedy, therefore I don't.  Any other suggestions?  Why should I have to write a script just because I thought Spoons and Balls Of Steel were unbelievably awful TV shows?  Does Jonathan Ross have to make a movie just to prove he's qualified to host Film 2006?  

QuoteProve that you have something to back up your extreme arrogance in the field of comedy.

Where's the extreme arrogance?  Examples?  Does that apply to everyone who voted in the awards thing?  Why is it arrogant to say 'here's some TV shows which the visitors of this site thought were dreadful?'  It's certainly not intended to be arrogant.  Why don't people complain about the site-wide polls we run through-out the year?  What is it exactly that annoyed you about this enough for you to want to register your complaint?

You're criticising us, why can't we criticise them?

fuckoff

Quote from: "Neil"don't want to. I don't think I have the requisite talents to work in comedy
What you think and what is actually the case might be quite different. How do you know if you won't try? (massive assumption of course, but please do correct me)

Quote from: "Neil"Does Jonathan Ross have to make a movie just to prove he's qualified to host Film 2006?
That invites a very glib and wanky kind of response, so here we go: Jonathan Ross exists as a cardboard box on top of which people can stand and hold up film posters, he is not talented in any way beyond this. Given his mauling by the Tumbleweeds I can only assume that you gave this example in jest since he is absolutely unqualified to host Film 2006.

The Tumbleweed awards show an energy and a desire for change that may be better served by directing it towards doing something better rather than putting the turds under the microscope.
Close this site down and use the bandwidth to do a knockout comedy page. Actually there's so many of you, couldn't you all get together and fund a television programme? Why is that so out of the question? Are you scared to stand on your own without the armour of 'We're not writers, we're critics.' Or do you fear the kind of criticism you have made it your business to dole out?
I'm aware that this argument may have been put forward before so please don't answer it just by saying 'Oh, not that one again.' It is this one, again.

gazzyk1ns


mayer

I'm with Neil on this one in a big way, simply because I believe criticism to be an art. And it's an art that's totally different from making music, or painting, or cooking or playing football.

Someone can read the game really well, and be a perfect critic, but have no legs. Someone can have exquisite taste in wine, and give good copy about it, without actually owning a vineyard or making it themselves.

It's not a hacnkeyed response, it's a totally fair one.


You say "do you fear the kind of criticism you have made it your business to dole out?", but you're missing the point.

Critics face criticism of their critques, it's that which they can be praised or criticised for, and the critics on here are no exception, and have been both by many.


"Close this site down and use the bandwidth to do a knockout comedy page"

Should Lester Bangs have thrown out his typewriter and done more gigs? I wouldn't have been best pleased if he did, ditto Jon Savage or Innes Reekie. I adore well written criticism, I despise poor critiicsm, and I am happy to praise or insult critics for their art.

But to recap, critiicsm is the art that critics deal in, and these critiques can be analyzed.

A Passing Turk Slipper

Quote from: "fuckoff"
Quote from: "Neil"don't want to. I don't think I have the requisite talents to work in comedy
What you think and what is actually the case might be quite different. How do you know if you won't try? (massive assumption of course, but please do correct me)
But he doesn't want to, he just said that. Stop telling people what to do.
Quote
Quote from: "Neil"Does Jonathan Ross have to make a movie just to prove he's qualified to host Film 2006?
QuoteThat invites a very glib and wanky kind of response, so here we go: Jonathan Ross exists as a cardboard box on top of which people can stand and hold up film posters, he is not talented in any way beyond this. Given his mauling by the Tumbleweeds I can only assume that you gave this example in jest since he is absolutely unqualified to host Film 2006.
I think he's 'qualified', in that I enjoy his reviews and agree with quite a lot of them. What 'qualifications' should you have before you're allowed to criticise something? The whole 'well you do better' thing isn't an argument, it's a childish moronic way to respond to itelligent discussion and if you say it you are an idiot. It's ridiculous to suggest that before you can comment negatively on something you need to have done the thing in question better than the person who you are criticising. It's just a silly thing to think. And I can't be bothered justifying that because the people who say 'well you do better' never say why we should have to, or explain their 'logic'
QuoteI'm aware that this argument may have been put forward before so please don't answer it just by saying 'Oh, not that one again.' It is this one, again.
It's just boring responding to the same arguments over and over again. Especially when you know that the person is probably never going to make any attempt to understand what you are saying.

Neil

Quote from: "fuckoff"That invites a very glib and wanky kind of response, so here we go: Jonathan Ross exists as a cardboard box on top of which people can stand and hold up film posters, he is not talented in any way beyond this. Given his mauling by the Tumbleweeds I can only assume that you gave this example in jest since he is absolutely unqualified to host Film 2006.

I gave that example because I think it's "glib and wanky" for someone to put forth the argument that it's not acceptable to criticise something unless the critic themselves have excelled at it.  I like talking about music and comedy, as do lots of other people on this site...what's actually wrong with that?  And to use a Lalla Ward argument, do you think it should swing both ways here?  In other words, do you object as strongly when people on here praise something? (Lalla Ward tm)

Ha and I see in the preview pane that Mayer has beaten me to using Lester Bangs!  

Also, no, clearly I don't fear criticism.  The proof?  Well, I've left this part of the forums open to people who can come on here and comment anonymously in whatever way as they so please, noone's stopping you from using the pseudonym "fuckoff" for example, or from criticising the Tumbleweed awards, are they?  Bit of a weird accusation, really.

fuckoff

Quote from: "A Passing Turk Slipper"But he doesn't want to, he just said that.
I don't care what he wants to do. I was suggesting (please note, only suggesting)that maybe he is more capable than he makes out and is just excusing his lack of effort in this regard because he's frightened of really going for it.
Quote from: "A Passing Turk Slipper"Stop telling people what to do
Stop telling me to stop telling people what to do :)

Quote from: "A Passing Turk Slipper"Especially when you know that the person is probably never going to make any attempt to understand what you are saying.
I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I feel I do understand what you're saying but don't agree with it. I think a great many people on here have the ability to do better, very very much better, and are wasting their energy with criticism which, as I say, I can never agree with being an art form.

Quote from: "Neil"Also, no, clearly I don't fear criticism. The proof? Well, I've left this part of the forums open to people who can come on here and comment anonymously in whatever way as they so please, noone's stopping you from using the pseudonym "fuckoff" for example, or from criticising the Tumbleweed awards, are they? Bit of a weird accusation, really.
I do think that criticism of criticism and criticism of art are different things. I never suggested you were frightened of people criticising your criticism(the tumbleweeds), but I am suggesting that this fear may be a factor in your refusal to create a more pure work of art instead.
Oh, and sorry about the username - it was just the first thing that came to mind (read what you like into that!)

Anonymous

Additionally, no-one really answered this part of my post:

Quote from: "I"Actually there's so many of you, couldn't you all get together and fund a television programme?

What do people feel about that as an idea? Is it really so ridiculous? At least to try?

Neil

Quote from: "fuckoff"I don't care what he wants to do. I was suggesting (please note, only suggesting)that maybe he is more capable than he makes out and is just excusing his lack of effort in this regard because he's frightened of really going for it.

I'm far more interested in music, and I am trying to do things there, although I doubt it'll ever amount to anything.  And I should point out that the fellows who made all the content for The Tumbleweeds have in fact made their own comedy projects, and as far as I'm aware they continue to do so.  

The point remains though, you shouldn't have to be great at something in order to be able to constructively criticise it.

QuoteI'm sorry if I gave that impression. I feel I do understand what you're saying but don't agree with it. I think a great many people on here have the ability to do better, very very much better, and are wasting their energy with criticism which, as I say, I can never agree with being an art form.

I don't see it as 'wasted energy' though, we come here and chat about comedy and music because we enjoy doing so.  I like sitting down with a cuppa and trying to figure out why I did or didn't like something.  It's very enjoyable!  Perhaps it's not for everyone, but y'know, I see it as the same thing people do when they get into school/college/work.  It's nice to discuss these things with like-minded folks.

QuoteI do think that criticism of criticism and criticism of art are different things. I never suggested you were frightened of people criticising your criticism(the tumbleweeds), but I am suggesting that this fear may be a factor in your refusal to create a more pure work of art instead.

Well, I did find parts of The Tumblies very amusing (e.g. the thing about Chuck Berry's original manifesto, or the DVD extras bit), and I thoroughly enjoyed reading through it all.  So, I like what it is...that it isn't a sitcom is fine by me.  To be honest, when people on messageboards say 'hey guys, let's all write a sitcom!' I do find myself groaning.  

QuoteOh, and sorry about the username - it was just the first thing that came to mind (read what you like into that!)

Heh no probs!

fuckoff

Quote from: "Neil"I'm far more interested in music, and I am trying to do things there, although I doubt it'll ever amount to anything.
Not with that attitude it won't! What have you done so far? Is there anywhere where I can hear anything?

Quote from: "Neil"And I should point out that the fellows who made all the content for The Tumbleweeds have in fact made their own comedy projects, and as far as I'm aware they continue to do so.

Oh right, sorry! Wherabouts?

Quote from: "Neil"To be honest, when people on messageboards say 'hey guys, let's all write a sitcom!' I do find myself groaning.
Yes, on most messageboards I would groan away with you, but not this one. I think there is enough talent on here to advocate getting past the groaning and just trying it. Trying being the word. I reckon it'd be wicked.

Still Not George

Y'see, this argument has been put before.
But beforehand, the tack was always "Well you do something better then! You can't, can you? So stop criticising CrapC4ComedyNumber50000-DarkEdition."
The "you people are talented, stop wasting yourselves here and kick some comic arse for fucksakes" tack is a new one as far as I can tell...

Still, I'm not sure I agree with you. I'm with mayer on this one (someone quote that before I edit it out again ;> ) - comedy criticism is more the domain of the 'whores than comedy itself. Some VWs members are very notable exceptions, and many of them already are working in comedy.

In it's own way, VWs is a symptom of modern comedy. It's a bitter reaction to endless half-cocked would-be sitcoms and godsawful 'dark' comedy series. It's comedy fandom without the weird sub element that always comes with it. And that's funny... but in itself it's not comedy. It's a product of it's context.

Ah, fuckit, I'll shut up before I vanish entirely up my own arse.

Neil

Quote from: "fuckoff"Not with that attitude it won't! What have you done so far? Is there anywhere where I can hear anything?

Well I'm just being realistic!  There are a couple of tunes on here, but they're crappy electronic things, and that's not the sort of music I actually want to make.  Nor are they much cop as they were my first attempts at that kind of thing.  But I'm borrowing some cash next week to get a half-decent acoustic guitar and a mic.  I don't feel the need to get any further than just making my own music anyway, it's the doing rather than the selling I'm interested in.

QuoteOh right, sorry! Wherabouts?

Well alan strang (who the whole layout/design of the Tumblies site), did illustrations on This Morning With Richard Not Judy.  As far as I'm aware he did the illustrations for segments like "Lazy Comedy Slags", and the segment that was based around Bible stories etc.  Emergency Lalla Ward Ten did all the writing for the Tumbleweeds, and him and alan strang made their own radio show which was broadcast on Resonance FM last year.  It's very good!  There's a thread about it here, although you'll need to be logged in and the registrations are still closed until I can do some updates to the forum software I'm afraid.  I checked in the thread for you and the download links for the shows have also expired, but perhaps someone has got them knocking about and can upload them again.

fuckoff

Cheers Neil, I'd appreciate the links. I hadn't realised what people had done really. I'd also genuinely be interested in hearing your music as well. Thing is this - in my eyes, as Still Not George seems to be saying, criticism is a symptom, a natural function of capable, talented people when faced with shit from the people who are doing the jobs they should be doing. Often TV execs and other insufferable cunts call this sort of thing 'Raw Talent', but it's nothing of the sort. The talent here is not 'raw', it's simply greater than that of those people you are criticising.
I think the results of a creative collaboration between the members on here would be spectacular. It may not be easy, particularly enjoyable or comfortable to do, but nevertheless...
Perhaps it isn't a question of wanting to do it anymore. The situation is so dire that perhaps you have a social responsibility to try and make something. I just don't think things like the tumbleweeds will do it, that's all.
It just seems that a waste of creative and financial resources might be going on. Get together, get some cameras and sort this sorry industry out!

Quote from: "Still Not George"you people are talented, stop wasting yourselves here and kick some comic arse for fucksakes
YES!!!

alan strang

Quote from: "Neil"but perhaps someone has got them knocking about and can upload them again.

We're pitching it at the moment so I think we'd prefer to keep it off the net for now.

Here's the trailer though:

http://rapidshare.de/files/11054957/SOTCAA_-_Lonely_Traveller_-_trailer.mp3.html

fuckoff

That sounds good. I like the website with all the wasps. (I presume it's the same thing!)

Anonymous

Trailer sounded funny, look forward to hearing it. Is that woman at the start the 'You really are an absolute jerk' woman from spoons?

mayer

Quote from: "Still Not George"I'm with mayer...he...i..s...  h...o...t.....   up my own arse.

x000x


alan strang

Quote from: "Anonymous"Is that woman at the start the 'You really are an absolute jerk' woman from spoons?

If it is then she's kept very quiet about it.

guest benn

wow. i hope these shit stirring awards whisk up some musky ploppers into the hair of the targets.  At least it has pumped up a stink on the last few pages.  First it was big ups & mad props now we want Neil to make his own TV show.  But he is only intrested in writing the music - but that's a start.   Make it funky.

The nature of being negative in such a big clump means you do look like grumpy gits.  A lot of the people who got the awards do need to try harder.  Some need to deep sleep and come back when they see what they have done to the world of chuckle.      

The trouble is looking like a comedy nazi page.  i do enjoy Nighty Night, Extras and the Boosh. they make me laugh.  Max & Paddy and Barley both had parts that made laugh.  

'It's all about opinions'

'is it? yes it is'

The Comedy Awards were worth it for Armando Inunnucci snipe at Ricky Gervais.  That was comedy gold.

Anonymous

What is this site about now? Complaining about things not being funny? There's only so far you can take that, surely? Over the last year there have been some good comedy programmes, some mediocre ones, some bad ones. Just like in any other year. I'm positive you all would have been bitching about Kenny Everett and Little & Large twenty years ago, Harry Enfield and So Haunt Me ten years ago. The state of British comedy isn't that bad - Peep Show, Nighty Night, Extras... would you be nostalgic about these if they'd been on in 1992?
I don't know who's in charge here but this is indeed starting to look like a comedy nazi website. Comedy nazis aren't funny, they are pub bores.