Tha Rasslin' Pay Windah! (Wrestling Chat & Spoilers.)

[Detective John Kimble]

That was the only bit of Raw I really saw, as I caught it very late.  But yeah, as the segment rolled on, I got that irritated feeling of it being just another masturbatory aid for Vince.  Usually there's one every couple of weeks or so, whether it's putting Bischoff in a dumpster, telling the fans that they all have their heads up their ass, "firing" J.R, etc. etc. etc.  He's got them all on loop in his office.  He doesn't have a security camera in his office (Not that he'd probably care).  

I hope to god that this isn't setting up a Michaels-McMahon feud.  It probably isn't, but I just really hope now.  I'd only like that if it was a Retirement match.  

I'll watch the repeat though.  

It's also like they're trying to tease Bret suddenly walking into the arena.  Which will never happen bar an HOF induction.  The fans will just get pissed off if there's no payoff like that.  But the writers/McMahon just don't care seemingly - after all, they don't seem to know their arse from their elbow.

Christ, I'd love to get some stability on the RAW title.  Can anyone be a decent champ though?  I really don't know anymore - I count Triple H and Edge, and Big Show and Kane if you actually really go with them.  The guys who make stable champs seem to be on Smackdown...well, Batista and JBL.  Somewhere soon they've just got to go for God with somebody.  It'll probably be Lashley - I can see him moving to RAW, and I see the championship in his future.  

And I can't wait for another fucking Cena vs Angle match next week.  Great.  One guy whose gimmick restricts him from decent wrestling, and another who should retire.  Here's hoping that this feud comes to an end at NYR.  For christ.

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

Poor Angle.

Arguably the best wrestler in the company (from a pure aspect, and to a lesser extent WWE style) and he's literally killing himself. Why? For a company that, as you say, don't know neither arse nor elbow. He deserves better, hell the roster deserves better, fuck WE deserve better. Fuck the WWE.

I read a RAW review on the DVDVR forum, which mentioned how someone thought that McMahon may have a terminal disease - God forbid, I wouldn't wish that on anyone - and these last few months of RAW have been him doing what he wants. In a way, it's a logical jump. Sad to think, but it makes much more sense than the current WWE train of 'thought' where continuity seems to be a dead scene.

EDIT: Just to clarify, thoughts of an ill McMahon is purely baseless speculation.

[Detective John Kimble]

Angle is ever so slightly mad, I think.  The man has talked about how he just won't rest until he can be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Rock, Austin, etc. - he is a dedicated man.  But you can see his body deteriorating - and not just compared to 1996.  I was watching the Eddie DVD recently - which has the Survivor Series '02 tag with Angle/Benoit v Edge/Mysterio v Los Guerreros, and one thing that struck me was how healthier Angle looked.  He looked cleaner, he looked fitter, he looked better in every way.  Perhaps mentally better too - since then, he's also lost his family.  

Nowadays though...Jesus.  Apparently, Angle is putting off an operation that will end his career.  His arm muscles have atrophied, he's suffering from nerve damage apparently, you can see his veins just popping, all of the fucking painkillers - and it's now severely affecting his wrestling too in my view.  Angle to me, has had by far his worst year yet, and nowadays I almost can't stand to see him in the ring.  I hope that someone convinces him that it's time to pull the plug.

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

The saddest thing, to me, is what you mentioned in your second sentence - "he just won't rest until he can be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Rock, Austin, etc."

That's ridiculous. Angle's been in WWE for, what, 5-6 years? How can he be expected - hell, how can anyone be expected - to match these two (and I assume you mean Hogan and possibly Flair.) Angle should be remembered as one of the best wrestlers in America, a hugely entertaining WWE 'superstar' and a Hall of Famer who gave a lot to the company. Sad thing is, he hasn't the Superstar charisma to be the NEXT BIG THING. Similar fate to Michaels, I feel, but that's nothing to be ashamed off. Hell, we don't forget the names Savage, Sting nor Piper.

[Detective John Kimble]

Yeah - it's certainly a losing battle, and not just for injuries.  And indeed, it's not like Angle's had a bad time at it.  Several title reigns, main event at Wrestlemania, a constant presence in the upper card/main event for several years - he's done great.  But it just never seems to be enough if you're Kurt Angle, and indeed, it's sad and crazy.

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

Thanks, I wanted to emphasize that.

The man's be rightly booked like something of a God in recent times (not on par with 'Taker, HHH and maybe HBK but still a very successful athlete.) He's so convinced that he has to go above and beyond what he's done, and tragically, he believes that he still can.

Anyway, onto matters less depressing... Samoa Joe is apparantly unhappy at TNA, and WWE are intersted in using him as the 'Upper Mid Heel Rikishi could never be...' according to the Wrestling Observer. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but TNA would stupid if they let the man go (they're not paying him enough - less than half what Jeff Hardy's making - $750 vs. $2,000.)

[TOCMFIC]

I don't think Angle will be happy unless he pretty much dies in the ring doing what he loves, ala Tommy Cooper. I've never liked Angle to be honest, but I just can't watch him now. Apparently his agent has come out and dismissed all the internet speculation as nonsense, but he's hardly likely to say "You're absolutely right. Angle has fucked his body into an early grave."

As for Vince being terminally ill... I think that would be about the only justification for the current product. Vince doesn't give a crap. Plus it seems weird to do the Bret thing now and go on about Montreal again. Aiming to go to the grave with a clear conscience? I don't know. It's the first I've heard of it, but it's interesting speculation. I mean god knows the guy has drugged himself to the hilts to get those guns.

Joe going to WWE would be fucking stupid. He's had an epic year from what I gather, had the match of the year just a few weeks back, and WWE want him so they can bury him in the midcard. If he's got any sense, he won't go. "We want you to be like a guy we fired." To quote a mythical line from the history of one of my other favourite sports, "Say it ain't so, Joe!"

Watched Joe vs Necro Butcher last night, their first meeting in IWA. Necro is fucking MAD! Not every day you get to see someone power slammed onto their forehead on a concrete floor! Joe absolutely beats the shit out of him, and CM Punk is on commentary and fucking hilarious.

BTW, go check DVDR and look for the thread about bizarre Hogan promos. "The power lies here!" is just nothing short of awesome.

[bill hicks]

The Smackdown spoilers mention something so pant wettingly awesome I won't sleep in anticipation of the greatness unfolding:

FIT FUCKING FINLAY!!!!

There were apparently some vignettes teasing Finlay's return to the ring and if it happens....by god words can't express it!

Finlay vs. Benoit, hell even just a Finlay vs. Regal match on Velocity would be enough to save the whole of the next year of WWE for me. They could have an animatronic Miss Elizabeth O.D at Wrestlemania and I wouldn't give a shit as long as they give me Finlay vs. Benoit and Finlay vs. Regal.

Smackdown + ridiculously hard middle aged Ulsterman = Money.

And also in the spoilers someone mentioned that Burchill hit the C4 in a Velocity match. This is a good week.

[Deadman97]

They could have an animatronic Miss Elizabeth O.D at Wrestlemania.

First laugh of the day, thanks for that.

[boki]

How old must Finlay be now?  He looked pretty old in the '80s!

[TOCMFIC]

I happened upon a spoiler from Smackdown, about a return, and all I can say is you'll probably be disappointed. Just like you always are when WWE makes a big deal about any return.

[Detective John Kimble]

It was pretty inevitable that said man in question would return at least once before his contract is finally out.  Who knows - maybe this time is the charm.

Still, jeez...Fit fucking Finlay.  Awesome.  The Belfast Bruiser will be kicking ass, and taking names (not to mention heads).

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

Guys... this is the spoiler thread.

As for the return, bah. Show's how poor WWE's (SmackDown!) main event scene is right now.

[TOCMFIC]

Guys... this is the spoiler thread.

Fine then... MARK FUCKING HENRY, THE FAT FUCK! Fucking lame.

I thought Fit was retired from wrestling?

I don't even know why I bother keeping up with WWE anymore.

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

Let's not jump all over Henry right now, the dude's pretty decent in most of his roles. It's quite obvious that he's being placed in rubbish roles so he'll quit (his multi-million contract.)

Chances are, it'll be horrible TV, as is the WWE staple, but it might be alright...


Might be.

[TOCMFIC]

I'm done deluding myself. This is the Vinnie Mac show we're talking. Remember, this is the same guy they had get Mae Young pregnant, and she gave birth to a hand. I don't think WWE is even capable of putting on good shows anymore.

I fully expect this latest run to be shite as well. Not that it makes any difference to me as I won't be watching. Next WWE I'll be bothering with is the Rumble, and if the rumours continues, that (ab)Ort(i)on is gonna win it, I won't even be bothering with that.

About all I can say is that I'm very glad with TNA, ROH etc... At least we have options now. Plus I've got a pile of Japanese wrestling tapes from a few years ago that I've not watched yet:)

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

Given that I've gone off on a rant about IWA and got myself banned, are there any other decent wrestling boards around?

I'm really really gutted to be honest, DVDVRMB was a great place for news and banter. Gutted I'm banned.


(so if anyone knows any way around IP bans... let me know plz?!)

[klaatu!]

You could try anonymouse.org which hides your ip address. It might get a bit fiddly when you have to register though, having to send emails back and forth etc (I'm not registered with DVDR, so I don't know what the registration entails). Or you could send them a grovelling email. What exactly did you rant about to get yourself banned?

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

IWA-Mid South and their constant cancelling of shows / fucking up etc. Was pissed at the time, and feel like a complete jackass... I have tried both anyonymous & sending them an email. They've yet to reply.

Nodq forums are... eh, alright I guess, if you dig massive sigs.

[bill hicks]

I tend to just stick with the F4W (~!) forums myself. The thread about CM Punk and The Diva Maria was the funniest thing I've ever read on the internet, specifically Bryan Alvarez's first post on it.

DVDVR is alright, but it is populated by some complete cocks. Viscera a better worker than Shawn Michaels....the fact that I have to share a planet with fucktards like that makes me angry.

[TOCMFIC]

The F4W forums, can you only get to them if you subscribe? I was considering subscribing. Was also consider the Observer, but over $100 Canadian for 40 issues is a little extreme.

So you can get banned for bitching on DVDR? That's sad. I like the boards, they're very intelligent, but there is a lot of "smarkier than thou" types on there. I mean someone picked their best matches of the year, and they were all WWE, and someone got all snarky saying they need to watch more wrestling. (Which I guess could be true, but still.)

On an almost unrelated topic, I bought Total Extreme Wrestling 2005 from Grey Dog Software. Played the demo, and playing booker man was really fun. Got the Death of the Territories mod, which should be a laugh. I can destroy Hogan's career:)

[TOCMFIC]

DVDVR is alright, but it is populated by some complete cocks. Viscera a better worker than Shawn Michaels....the fact that I have to share a planet with fucktards like that makes me angry.

Okay, missed that when I replied... WTF?! The giant leather bowling ball a better worker than HBK? Words can't even begin to describe how fucked up that is.

[TOCMFIC]

IWA-Mid South and their constant cancelling of shows / fucking up etc. Was pissed at the time, and feel like a complete jackass... I have tried both anyonymous & sending them an email. They've yet to reply.

Nodq forums are... eh, alright I guess, if you dig massive sigs.

You could see if you could find this Java proxy called JAP. Routes everything via a proxy in Germany. Works quite well.

As for massive sigs... That's what adblock in Firefox is for. I have pretty much all sig pics removed, and ALL avatars removed on DVDR.

[bill hicks]

The F4W forums, can you only get to them if you subscribe? I was considering subscribing. Was also consider the Observer, but over $100 Canadian for 40 issues is a little extreme.

So you can get banned for bitching on DVDR? That's sad. I like the boards, they're very intelligent, but there is a lot of "smarkier than thou" types on there. I mean someone picked their best matches of the year, and they were all WWE, and someone got all snarky saying they need to watch more wrestling. (Which I guess could be true, but still.)

On an almost unrelated topic, I bought Total Extreme Wrestling 2005 from Grey Dog Software. Played the demo, and playing booker man was really fun. Got the Death of the Territories mod, which should be a laugh. I can destroy Hogan's career:)

You can only get to the forums if you subscribe, but it's well worth it. You can subscribe to the newsletter hard copy, or just the online version (my preference), and for $6 or whatever it is a month you get the weekly newsletter, a radio show every day (which is usually hilarious...BRENT KREMEN~!), the forum, and the newsletter and radio show archives. Well worth the £4 a month in my eyes.

I tried TEW 2005, but it was a killer for me. My obsessive detail in booking meant I played it for 4 hours straight and managed one show...if I had the game I would never do anything else.

The Viscera comment is in the infamous "ROH workers that are better than Michaels and Angle" thread on DVDVR. In it someone backed up their comments by saying that not only were Angle and Micheals worse than most of the ROH roster, but were not even the best workers on Raw:

Not counting Lawler since he's full time announcer, rarely wrestles on RAW...using WWE page for roster guys better than HBK in no order:

Carlito, Ric Flair, Trevor Murdoch, Val Venis, Tajiri, Hurricane, Edge, Parisi, Conway, Lance Cade, Big Show, Kane, John Cena, Tyson Tomko, Shelton Benjamin, Kurt Angle, Rosey, Dupree, Viscera, Danny Basham, Matt Striker, Triple H, Chavito. I'm ambivalent about how to rank RVD (who is also listed on the RAW roster) vis a vis HBK. So that puts him about 25 as opposed to my guestimate of 27. But forgot that Eugene was released.

The obvious ten above Angle would be agin in no order:

Lance Cade, Big Show, Carlito, Chaviito, Trevor Murdoch, Val Venis, Tajiri, Hurricane, Edge, Conway.

Other RAW workers that one might make argument of being better than Angle where the arguments would be more nuanced would be Ric Flair, Tyson Tomko, Rosey, and Dupree.

Again this is only using RAW roster which is weaker of two rosters.

That post is so utterly deranged I cannot truly comprehend it.

[TOCMFIC]

How good is the F4W newsletter? How up to date is it? Is it a really good read? I know Alvarez can write. I am seriously considering subscribing. It'll be $10 a month for the online one for me roughly.

TEW... I played the demo and booked one show and was immediately hooked. The earlier free versions were let down by a fucking awful interface. The fact it simulates an entire wrestling world now, with multiple feds etc... I'm not that obsessive, but it will allow to me to bury Hogan in the midcard, jobbing him too... Well, everyone:) I literally ponied up the dough after doing one show. As with a lot of games, it the modding community that really sold me.

As for workers better than HBK... That HAS to be a troll! And as much as I hate Angle, he seems to be ranking Big Show ABOVE Angle. That is just the most clinically deranged thing I've ever seen. (Just noticed. We both used the word "deranged".) Utter madness.

[Detective John Kimble]

Yeah, Michaels and Angle generally get a lot of hatred from DVDVR, don't they?  There's several WWE workers I'd place above them these days myself (ignoring past glories), but nowhere near that many.    

Hell, out of boredom:

RAW - Flair, HHH, Edge, Murdoch.  

SD! - Benoit, Mysterio, JBL, Regal, Noble.

There'd be a couple more on the edge of that, but Michaels/Angle would still have the better of them.  While I'm hyped for his return, I'll wait and see his return before putting Finlay in with them.  If he can still go, then sure - but I still remember the horrible, saddening sight that was Vader this year.  I hope not to be disappointed like that again.  

Michaels is notably not at the level he once was, sure, but he's still definitely up there.  He's still a very good worker, and a great carrier of matches.  Angle is diminishing for sure, but while this past year was certainly his worst yet and it's not really likely to get better due to his lengthy list of injuries, he cannot yet be called a bad worker.  Things could perhaps start getting better after this whole Cena-Angle debacle is finally over.  Angle should also be moved back home in 2006 - I've never thought of him as a RAW worker.  

I think the problem that they have with Michaels is his style these days.  It's a problem I have with him too, but nowhere near to that degree, as he's still entertaining to me.

[TOCMFIC]

Okay, I really have to roll up the sleeves and play fisticuffs on a couple of those choices.

Flair?! I mean the guy is a legend, don't get me wrong, but all he does is flop around the ring these days. The few matches I've seen this year, he's been carried by the other guy.

JBL?! He only has about 5 moves in his arsenall. (Admittedly, as much as I don't like him as a performer, his clotheslines look fucking brutal).

Of the guys you mention, I'd say Mysterio is the best. I love Benoit, always will, but you could throw Mysterio into the ring with a corpse and he'd easily get a *** match out of it.:) (Should be careful. If WWE read this they may come up with yet another way to abuse the memory of Eddie...)

[Detective John Kimble]

In my mind, Flair's still got it.  Not as much as he used to have, but the mind is still there.  He also carried Angle to one of his better matches of this year (a largely forgotten RAW match), and really does well against a lot of opponents.  And his series with HHH was fantastic, played to his strengths, and produced Flair's best matches in god knows when.  

JBL is one of the most improved wrestlers of 2005.  He has been brilliant throughout - and not only that, he's one of the most entertaining guys on the roster.  His promos are great, his facial expressions are great, and now his skills are up there too.  Had great matches with Smackdown's best over the whole year, carries weaker wrestlers like Cena and Matt Hardy to good matches (Hell, even carried the Big Show to a good match).  Ever since Bradshaw got this gimmick going, he's just gone from strength to strength.

I agree that Mysterio is definitely the best worker in the company at the moment.  All-round brilliant package.  Benoit is still probably #2 - after all, he's had some great matches this year, although none of them really high-profile.  WWE saw good sense to have him and Regal put on a series of matches, and then followed that up with a series against another opponent who Benoit works well against in Booker.

[TOCMFIC]

Funny you should mention Regal/Benoit. On DVDR there's a thread about those two, and someone linked to the match they had on Velocity at the beginning of October, and it was a great match. What rocked is the commentary was ALL through the left channel, so if I left that headphone off, I just got the "sounds of the mat". Awesome. Can't remember when WWE started putting Heat and Velocity matches online, but their match in July was supposedly a doozy too.

I really do hope Benoit leaves when his contract runs out though. I mean really, they've pissed him away. He had that great run against HHH/HBK... Then he jobbed to Orton and it's all been downhill from there. I'm trying to think of other wrestlers who, in about a year, went from being main event champs, to midcard with a minor belt.

As for JBL... I'll agree on the facial expressions and the mike work, but I just don't see it in his ring work. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Ah well, in TEW I'll be able to right all these wrongs:)

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

What's going on in your TEW games then?

I'm WWE but, I've changed it pretty radically - They're now CWA, Massacre is the RAW brand, SwitchBlade! is SmackDown! and I'm toying with the idea of a third brand - Firebrand. Not sure if I'll get enough TV to cover the rosters, though.

I gave Eddy a title run, I guess largely due to his passing, but now I'm back to Plan 'A' - AJ vs. Alex Shelley, lengthy feud over the top strap! On Massacre, it's Angle (champ) vs HBK vs. Shelton, and HHH has just turned on Flair - I like to use / copy some real life stuff...

I'll check out the F4W forum / subscription thing - a treat as I spent very little on Hogmany! Still gutted about the DVDVRMB stuff. I was a real dick on there the other night, and banning is deserved, but dammit, I wish I could get back on. The nodq forums are pretty horrible, as much as I try to lie to myself.