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How to be a Chris Morris fan in 2006

Started by Neil, January 11, 2006, 04:33:21 PM

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Peking O

Quote from: "poor fool"Perhaps that's why it frequently dissolves into insults - there's nothing more to say.

Well fuck off then.

poor fool

Quote from: "Peking O"Well fuck off then.

Comedy gold.

Neil

Mundays is bang on.  I'm just a bit exasperated at seeing the same old opinions being used for just shy of a year now - some of them predate Barley by years too.  If you like Nathan Barley, fine.  If you have to explain why other people don't like it by saying they're too thick to understand it, or that it's a drama, or any of the other cliches I pointed out...then, that's not so fine.  I'm sorry, but I do get really irritated when I see people arguing that 'Chris Morris has never been laugh out loud funny, and he doesn't do jokes, he makes a point and wank wank wank'

Quote from: "poor fool"
Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"The potential goodside of a thread like this would be that people raise their criticism and arguments above that level.

Can you really do that when it's simply a matter of taste, though? There's not much of an argument beyond:
'I find this funny'.
'I do not'.
Perhaps that's why it frequently dissolves into insults - there's nothing more to say.

You can yes if your so inclined. Which is why any proffessional critical review of any form of art is usually longer than one sentence.

poor fool

Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"Which is why any proffessional critical review of any form of art is usually longer than one sentence.

Probably why I despise critics and their tiresome, reactionary, narrow minded profession then, isn't it?
Everyone has an opinion and a right to express it, yes, but whatever happened to humility?

mayer

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"I'd also like to nominate 'apples and oranges', 'straw man' and 'we're going around in circles here' as tedious debate-stoppers. Although they're not limited to Morris chat.




Lalla, on seeing my name was the last one on this thread.

Oh dear, I've got a centre-of-the-Universe complex too!

Neil

Quote from: "poor fool"
Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"The potential goodside of a thread like this would be that people raise their criticism and arguments above that level.

Can you really do that when it's simply a matter of taste, though?

Well I have, or at least I've tried to.

QuoteThere's not much of an argument beyond:
'I find this funny'.
'I do not'.
Perhaps that's why it frequently dissolves into insults - there's nothing more to say.

Simply not true!

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"But I think you'll find Neil isn't singling out people who simply find Nathan Barley/Ayoade etc funny on their own merits at all - more people who resort to the types of cliches listed when 'discussing' it here.

I guess I'm saying all the irritating arguments should be listed.

I've got one:

'Don't decide for yourself if something is funny - there are plenty of virals to do it for you.'

slim

Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"You can yes if your so inclined. Which is why any proffessional critical review of any form of art is usually longer than one sentence.
'I do not like the Mona Lisa.'

mayer

A serious one... I was suprised to read someone saying that they were suprised that Morris fans could hold "right wing" views. Leaving aside the technicalities of that for a minute, I just thought "why"?

Morris's best work is often very silly, laugh out loud stuff. Some of his stuff has had some sort of satirical intent, but I've never viewed any of it... not the political stuff... especially not the political stuff, as "left wing" in intent or execution.

Morris has parodied plenty of right wing viewpoints, actions and whatnot, but that's because many of them are absurd. I've never viewed Morris as a political comedian (in that traditional sense), the way someone like Mark Thomas is.

And I don't think there's anything in the content or humour that would make it resonate more with left-wing types than right.

EDIT: So the one which seems to have been presented that I can't understand is "being left wing".

poor fool

Quote from: "Neil"Simply not true!

Simply is. I have absolutely no idea why you didn't like Barley, depsite reading pages of your arguments to the effect. What you hated I loved, where you sat stoney faced I gasped incapacitated with convulsing laughter. It really, genuinely is an 'apples & oranges' sort of thing. What more can you say. I'll tell you what, why don't you attempt to explain why I liked it?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "slim"
'I do not like the Mona Lisa.'

Maybe it's not meant to be funny.

Neil

Quote from: "mayer"Morris's best work is often very silly, laugh out loud stuff.

Bang on.  And the root of this thread really is:  How the flying fuck can anyone argue otherwise?  Especially when they're someone who enjoys his work?  I just don't get it, I really don't.

mayer

EDIT: at Mr. fool

Ummmmm... that's not what Lalla (or anyone) means by apples and oranges.

"Apples and oranges" is what people say when you're comparing two things that are not alike as if they were.

A "straw man" is constructing a weaker argument to attack rather than the one actually being presented by your opponent.


For example "Are you saying it's like apples and oranges then?" in a pejorative manner, when you are in fact not, is an example of a straw man.


EDIT 2: What I think you meant to say pf was "horses and courses"

poor fool

I am sorry for not understanding an analogy. Please do not correct people in a pejorative way - it is highly demeaning.

mayer

Apologies! I wasn't trying to deman you there!

Godzilla Bankrolls

Morris, pre-BES, always made jokes for jokes' sake, as well as jokes that had serious points behind them. With BES/Barley (and perhaps Blue Jam/Jam to a certain degree) both became rather muddied, until we ended up with a series that had little in the way of humour or points. Except for the tired old ones that were made in better ways by many people years ago.

Neil

Quote from: "poor fool"Simply is. I have absolutely no idea why you didn't like Barley, depsite reading pages of your arguments to the effect. What you hated I loved, where you sat stoney faced I gasped incapacitated with convulsing laughter. It really, genuinely is an 'apples & oranges' sort of thing. What more can you say. I'll tell you what, why don't you attempt to explain why I liked it?

The point is though, comedy is a fun thing to discuss, there's more to be said about it than simply 'I liked it/I didn't like it'.  That will form the basis of your response to something, true enough, but it doesn't end there does it?  If you think it does, then why keep coming back here?  Why not just write those two sentences down on a bit of paper and look at that instead?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "Neil"
Quote from: "mayer"Morris's best work is often very silly, laugh out loud stuff.

Bang on.  And the root of this thread really is:  How the flying fuck can anyone argue otherwise?  Especially when they're someone who enjoys his work?  I just don't get it, I really don't.

Are there that many people arguing that NB is Morris's best work? If there are then I can only put it down to postmodernism (but I blame that for everything).

I'm very perplexed as to why some people go to such efforts to discuss that theres never any point discussing something. I can understand why people who enjoying reading lengthy critiques of a comedy show would want to encourage people to engage in it but I can't understand why people who aren't interested in such things would seek to stop others from doing it. Or why they would enter into such discussions in the first place, let alone read them.

Can anyone from the 'its all personal opinnion theres no point' camp explain this to me?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "Munday's Chylde"Can anyone from the 'its all personal opinnion theres no point' camp explain this to me?

I'm from the "It's all personal opinion - careful now!" camp so I can't answer that.

TJ

Quote from: "poor fool"
Quote from: "Neil"Simply not true!

Simply is. I have absolutely no idea why you didn't like Barley, depsite reading pages of your arguments to the effect. What you hated I loved, where you sat stoney faced I gasped incapacitated with convulsing laughter. It really, genuinely is an 'apples & oranges' sort of thing. What more can you say. I'll tell you what, why don't you attempt to explain why I liked it?

Rubbish. Everyone who didn't like it has explained why they didn't like it at great length. If still have 'absolutely no idea why', then you clearly haven't read any of it. You're just trying to start a fight for the sake of it, and you know it.

Neil

Quote from: "Johnny Yesno"Are there that many people arguing that NB is Morris's best work? If there are then I can only put it down to postmodernism (but I blame that for everything).

There are a fair few Johnny, I do recall it being said quite a lot in the "Nathan Barley - It's Well Rubbish" thread in Site Updates.  And a couple of people have just said that again recently, which is what prompted this thread.  I'm not attacking them personally though (although I'm sure it must look like that, for which I apologise), it's just that specific attitude, and the other things people have said in that thread and other Barley ones for the last year.  I do want to genuinely know how much Morris stuff they've actually seen or heard, I just can't imagine why anyone would think he 'never does laugh out loud funny stuff.'  And also, this sneering at "jokes" is just beyond me... are they equating jokes with little more than the likes of 'my dog's got no nose' or something?  This kind of attitude is what you'd expect from the people making TV shows, it's the sort of justification you'd expect to see some wanker trotting out on a clip show or Newsnight Review, but when the public themselves start repeating it, well, that's fucked up.

Morris himself has said in the past that any point he makes comes second.  The jokes come first.  He seemed to get that totally arse about face with the BES.

thewomb

The fact is, Nathan Barley is very funny, otherwise I'd never be defending it on a comedy forum, and the humour happens to go hand in hand with the satire. I would elaborate, but it seems any well-articulated opinions (as opposed to the "it's not meant to be funny" bollocks highlighted by this thread) are likely to be dismissed as "a bit too broadsheet columnist", as if that's any kind of valid argument whatsoever.

thewomb

PS. I haven't actually seen much debate on the Mandy episode of Nathan Barley. What's everyone's opinion on it, or has it generally been dismissed as deliberately controversial bollocks?

It's not a fact that it's very funny.  I think people's problem is that a lot of people can explain why it's not, but no-one attempts to explain why it is.

mayer

Quote from: "thewomb"PS. I haven't actually seen much debate on the Mandy episode of Nathan Barley. What's everyone's opinion on it, or has it generally been dismissed as deliberately controversial bollocks?


http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=7306


17 Pages of chat on that episode there. Knock yourself out!

Daaaaaaan

Quote from: "Neil"Morris himself has said in the past that any point he makes comes second.  The jokes come first.  He seemed to get that totally arse about face with the BES.

Couldn't disagree more. It was his most high profile project by a mile and seven inches and whether that was his intention or not doesn't alter the fact that the BES was just as funny as almost any of the Brasseye series. Therefore I don't think he did get it arse about face, even if he did come closer to it than ever before.

thewomb

Quote from: "mayer"
Quote from: "thewomb"PS. I haven't actually seen much debate on the Mandy episode of Nathan Barley. What's everyone's opinion on it, or has it generally been dismissed as deliberately controversial bollocks?


http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=7306


17 Pages of chat on that episode there. Knock yourself out!

Cheers.

Neil

Quote from: "thewomb"The fact is, Nathan Barley is very funny, otherwise I'd never be defending it on a comedy forum, and the humour happens to go hand in hand with the satire. I would elaborate, but it seems any well-articulated opinions (as opposed to the "it's not meant to be funny" bollocks highlighted by this thread) are likely to be dismissed as "a bit too broadsheet columnist", as if that's any kind of valid argument whatsoever.

Yeah dead on, whitey's just opressing you.  Look, I should know better after the weekend, but let's give this another go.  I think it's spectacularly silly to suggest that I'm "dismissing well-articulated opinions", especially in this flipping thread!  What I recall saying to you the other night was that you didn't really have many real arguments, you'd just swat aside things like the dialogue as if they have absolutely no importance, and then reply with one terse sound-bite.  As I said back then (even before I ran out of patience with you), I was starting to feel like a university lecturer because you wouldn't really engage with the conversation!

But really, I don't want to turn this into another bare-chested battle with you.