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March 28, 2024, 04:41:09 PM

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Living without alcohol

Started by Abbatoir worker, April 04, 2006, 10:28:21 PM

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Mr. Analytical

Well the twattishness for AA and most of those kind of 12-step programmes comes from a situation I imagine might never actuallly exist.

Namely the step where you have to accept Jesus as your saviour or whatever.  given what you've said about the "my way or the high way" attitude combined with the head-fucking, I imagine an honest atheist would have a hell of a time.

John Self

Don't worry Mr. A: as I said on the last page, Jesus is never mentioned in any of the steps. All you have to do is imagine a power in the universe higher than yourself- I can see why you may have a problem doing that though...


And, funnily enough, AA have got this whole new innovative way round the non-belief deal, a way for devoutly non-spiritual atheists to get on board too! It's an approach called 'fake it to make it'. All you do is pretend that you believe in God, act it outwardly though you know you don't feel it, say the prayers even though you think they're bullshit, go through all the motions, every one there is- and, eventually, God will come and rescue you anyway, so charmed that you made  the basic effort, he'll overlook the basic lack of belief underlying it.

That sounds like a joke. It isn't. 'Fake it to make it' is one of the many recovery buzzphrases, and is often recommended to non-spiritual atheist pissheads by AA. It's something i've often pondered and argued over: to me, it seems to be basing quite an odd theological proposition on not a great deal more than the nice way that two words can rhyme; it seems like a sneakily updated version of that loser Pascal's Wager; I can't help but think that if there is a God, he really wouldn't appreciate me dicking him about like this.

I often think I should at least give it a go though, so I know exactly what it is that I'm rubbishing. After all, if there was a God- I seriously would love to get in touch with him. I don't know what stops me from trying. Yes I do. The effort. I'm too lazy.

Jemble Fred

Fucking hell, that's disgustingly patronising. "Hey, you don't believe in God? Well, pretend you do and he'll help you anyway, he's great like that, he even cares for STUPID NON-BELIEVERS LIKE YOU." That's more arrogant than any piece of atheist high-handedness I've ever heard.

butnut

I've done at least one sober meet and it was fine. I did have to leave before anyone got too wasted though. Tom Rad is the master of attending meets sober though.

As it happens, the meet on Saturday will be 7 months since I stopped drinking.  I'm really glad I did - maybe I'm still in that honeymoon period that John Self talked about. It is great to wake up and only feel really shit when you're actually ill. I also realised that as I have to rely only on myself to get my work done, that I've got a lot more done. I still waste a lot of time, but at least now it's when I feel like it, not just when my head is all cloudy!

I have found that I feel better in social situations - I think I used to use alcohol as a kind of defense and I used to get a weirded out meeting new people when there wasn't booze around. So in a strange way, not drinking has given me more confidence.

And I don't think I was an alcoholic, but I did drink a lot. Having said that, I don't trust myself to start drinking again, and I couldn't imagine drinking only in moderation like SNG. I think it's best I just keep well away from the stuff.

John Self

Quote from: "Jemble Fred"Fucking hell, that's disgustingly patronising. "Hey, you don't believe in God? Well, pretend you do and he'll help you anyway, he's great like that, he even cares for STUPID NON-BELIEVERS LIKE YOU." That's more arrogant than any piece of atheist high-handedness I've ever heard.


Well I'm not sure where you got the word 'stupid' from from what I said Jem, nor your belief that people at Alcoholics Anonymous SHOUT AT THE END OF THEIR SENTENCES. Why not take those two things away again? Personally, though I have many problems with the idea, I think, on many levels, it sounds right and proper: equitable, democratic, 'good sportsmanship' on God's part.

Jemble Fred

No it doesn't. It's hiding from the problem with lies.

EDIT: I should point out that I just clicked on the link below, so am especially angry at the moment.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp

hencole

I didn't realise all AA meetings were christian based projects. How frightening that religion always preys on the vunerable.

John Self

Quote from: "Jemble Fred"A link that made me howl with laughter

Haha, oh Jem, why do you do such things to yourself? Is it a 'know thy enemy' thing?


Anyway, I hope it's perfectly clear that I'm just outlining AA's position here because, well, I think it's odd and interesting. Plus, it has been shown to work- by which I mean 'keep people sober where every other attempt has failed'. But fuck it, I don't really want to overly defend a system I don't believe in myself, and though I'm sure you're champing at the bit for a nice angry theological debate (it's been a few days), I'd say that, seeing as it's Friday, we perhaps leave it and relax and call a truce eh. I'll PM you a spliff for when you get home.


Let's make it a GOOD Friday

butnut


Mr. Analytical

Quote from: "butnut"I've done at least one sober meet and it was fine. I did have to leave before anyone got too wasted though. Tom Rad is the master of attending meets sober though.

Hehehe... thought you meant AA meetings.

That all sounds hideous actually.  It sounds like you're expected to pay "lip service" and it also requires faith on your part anyway, namely that even if you don't believe, that prayer has a point to it.  That's not an innovative solution to the problem, it's sighing and going "well... do it anyway".

I agree with Hencole though... these things take place in church halls and require you to accept the existence of God?  sounds a lot like picking on people when they're at their lowest ebb to me.

John Self

Quote from: "butnut"Isn't today Thursday?

Shit yeah, it is! Haha, just goes to show- every day's a Friday when you're on the wagon!


Or on the dole, whichever comes first

Make me smile

Quote from: "butnut"Isn't today Thursday?

You can GET OUT of this forum!! After you've apologised to everyone for your rudeness and ignorance, we MIGHT let you back in!

Morgan

QuoteThe prospect of meeting oddballs off the internet and NOT drinking is the most fucking horrific idea I've ever heard. Worse than Hitler.

Exactly, I don't think I would be able to do it personally.  If I were to turn up on the 8th and TraceyQ confirms my long term suspicions that in fact she's a paedophile crack addict murderer, I want to at least be pissed when she slits my throat and I become 'INTERNET MEET UP MURDER BOY' in The Sun.

Ciarán2

So much for the Living Without Alcohol thread! Full of people yapping on about what they drink!

(I drink Guinness, me.)

I might give up the booze. Actually, yeah, what the hell... I'm giving it up...now. 7 seconds and counting....

Abbatoir worker

QuoteI'm gonna go to this thing on Saturday now...  the wonderful performance of scintillating sober sociability I'll put in can act as an inspiration to Abbatoir worker, and any other 'whores trying to give up drinking.

Please do report back with specific reference to being sober.  I have to watch the National (on TV, not actually at Aintree) and go to my cousin's 21st birthday party, so I'll let you know how I get on with those traditionally pissed up events too.

Morrisfan82

Quote from: "Ciarán"So much for the Living Without Alcohol thread! Full of people yapping on about what they drink!

(I drink Guinness, me.)

I might give up the booze. Actually, yeah, what the hell... I'm giving it up...now. 7 seconds and counting....
My laptop's gone on the fritz, so I can't do any music work or anything at the moment. So to compensate I've just been getting sauced after work in the absence of anything better to do. Doing it again tonight. It ended in karaoke last night. I'll tell you when I've had enough etc...

I am giving up the booze.  I always half-heartedly say I will, but this time I mean it.  

I hate myself when I'm drunk.  I can't handle social situations so I really lay into the drink.  I have no self control and I wake up the next day feeling so ashamed of myself.  It is expensive, and above all else, I am hypocrite.  I lecture people about the dangers of alcoholism, piously gesturing with one hand, a JD and diet coke in the other.  I know alcoholism runs in the family, and I am not playing Russian Roulette anymore.

I don't drink all that often but when I do drink, I can't stop. I am loud and obnoxious, confessional and talkative and I hate it. I am not like that when I'm not drunk.  I just feel so awkward socially that I don't know what else to do but drink.

But I'll have to just get over being self conscious and suck it up.  I'd rather be quiet and self conscious as opposed to an annoying drunk.

So, no more booze for me.

Hypnotoad.

BWW, you're no different to anyone else, and everyone suffers the "oh shit what did I do last night" feeling on a Sunday, thats the depression affects of alcohol. I get that feeling even when I behaved like a saint

What you DON'T need on a night out is some sober smart arse who will pull you up on everything you did or said, so long as everyones arseholed it doesn't matter

Have a glass of wine, it'll make you feel much better

I'd never be a sober smartarse.  

I don't know, it's just not worth it anymore.  I can't be fucked shelling out money to feel like shit.

23 Daves

I don't really know that many people who actually can cope in social situations without alcohol - I'm getting much better at it myself these days (I only had a couple last night, and I was perfectly friendly to everyone) but a nice drop of Guinness or JD normally loosens me up much more.  And it is tough - if I'm going to a club, I generally need a few before I have the guts to get on the dancefloor.  I know I'm a crappy dancer, and I know I'm occasionally going to attract derision from others, so I need the alcohol to unchain my tongue and tell the necessary folks to piss off.

So much of it depends upon the social situation or who you're hanging round with, though.  I've totally given up on going to image-conscious London clubs (despite two invites in the past two weeks) purely because I don't want to spend the entire evening feeling like I'm being judged in a fashion parade.  It's far too much like hard work and not enough like fun, to be quite honest, and I inevitably get steaming drunk at such events just to deal with the pressure of it all.  And I consider myself to be moderately confident at most times, too.  London clubs suck, generally speaking.  And so does the cost of the alcohol and the cab fare home.

phes

Quote from: "Banana Woofwoof"
So, no more booze for me.

Give it a go mate, and if it works out then good for you.

I think It's a pretty good idea to find out how much of a problem you have going without booze, asap. I pretty much knocked it (and other stuff) on the head a couple of years back. I've actually got myself into twice as much shit since, and behaved worse whilst sober than when drunk, but after 10 years of heavy daily use of drink/dope and regular recreationals, and five years of really struggling to stop (and I really wanted to and really needed to) I am glad that i know where I stand.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I'm not sure I'd like life without alcohol. It's nice in numerous drinks and certainly comes in handy for craggy-faced cloggers like myself from time to time.

When I've needed to financially, I've managed to cut out alcohol altogether for a few months and my body and brain have been fine about it. Strange how people give you odd looks if you say "I'm dying for a beer" but not "I'm dying for a coke".

I have no problem with people who choose to not drink but I must admit that when people my age say "I don't like the taste" I tend to think "Well you just haven't acquired it yet." That's probably what Guiness drinkers think of me when I say "Your drink tastes like mucky dishwater you parasite." I know other people who have had a really bad experience wih one of their first few times drinking and never returned. In both of these cases I'm tempted to try and persuade people to drink, which is bad, I know, but saying you don't like the taste of beer without even trying it is a bit ignorant as it doesn't take into account that there's so many different tasting beers- there is something for everyone- that's a guarantee. And with people who had bad experiences at 13 or whatever- cutting out beer on the basis of a little adolescent over-indulgence seems a trifle puritanical.

butnut

Good luck if you decide to stick with the non-drinking BWW! I was going to bump this sort of thread a few weeks ago, as it was a year since I gave up but in the end it hardly seemed worth doing, as the idea of drinking really seems very alien to me these days. I got very sick of the hangovers and sometimes becoming someone I didn't like all that much when I'd had too many. I didn't intend my non-drinking to be for a long time when I gave up, but I quickly quite enjoyed the soberness.

It's not always the best thing - you can feel a little isolated from people when everyone else is pissed (such as at the wedding I was at last night). It has also removed my sole pulling 'tactic'  of getting so drunk that I barely knew what I was doing, and latching onto a girl in a similar state. Quite what I'm going to do about that I don't know. But I feel my life is much better on the whole without alcohol these days.

Frinky

Quote from: "butnut"It has also removed my sole pulling 'tactic'  of getting so drunk that I barely knew what I was doing, and latching onto a girl in a similar state.

"...m'lud."

Little Hoover

Quote from: "Shoulders?-Stomach!"

I have no problem with people who choose to not drink but I must admit that when people my age say "I don't like the taste" I tend to think "Well you just haven't acquired it yet." .

Yeah I heard this a lot growing up, and so I've made the effort to let myself get used to the taste, and I have just about made it with beer, I'm good with white wine, that's my favourite. But I'm such a lightweight at the moment though, and after getting a really horrible hangover and vomiting all day, the day after my brothers wedding, I make sure to be very responsible with my drinking and slowly build up a resistance.
It's not like I even feel any desire to get blind drunk every night anyway.

Hypnotoad.

Quote from: "Banana Woofwoof"I'd never be a sober smartarse.  

Sorry that wasn't the implication, I was suggesting more that if everyones pissed and having a laugh, its cool being a bit loud and abrasive......unless one of your lot is sober and likes reminding everyone what an arse they made of themselves

I gave up drinking during the week, fell much better for it, but socialising over a drink at the weekends is one of the things I really enjoy. I do get the downers though on a Sunday if its been a real heavy one

untitled_london

have i posted in this thread before...

i should have.

i'm not on the wagon anymore, but i do have a good degree more control than previously.

long story short - sooner or later you'll do something you really fucking regret.

as such, you'll be faced with the choice, drink like a cunt and act like a cunt, or stop, reflect, then decide how best you want to drink in the future.

southpark says it best.

the episode where stan's dad gives up.

giving completely is for pussies - abstinence from something you enjoy is easy.

better to stop for a while, decide wether you do in fact enjoy the drink, then decide how you will go about doing so in future without upsetting yourself or anybody else around you.

wokde for me, so it must be true.

(i did 6 months dry - now i very rarely do more than 3-4 drinks)
(3-4 drinks being 3 pints of leffe, so strong 3-4 strong drinks is my self imposed limit, unless i'm having a big day of it)

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: "Banana Woofwoof"I just feel so awkward socially that I don't know what else to do but drink.

 It still horrifies me how many people on here (and by extension out there) think like this.  They don't enjoy socialising, but they still do it and self-medicate with alcohol in order to make it bearable.

 The problem is that each time you get drunk in a social situation you're only making it harder on yourself in the long-run because it's yet another situation in which you've failed to devellop the social skills that would prevent you from feeling so awkward.

 People usually talk about social skills as things you use to stop yourself appearing like a prick or maybe to help you get things that you want but it's also all about putting yourself at ease and adopting a mindset whereby you're not uncomfortable talking to people.

 I used to be absolutely hopeless in social situations.  In fact, I remember once going on a course and being so uncomfortable that I wedged myself behind a chair in the corner of the room.  However, I worked on it and now I tend to feel quite comfortable in social situations and people even say that I put others at ease.

 The idea of getting steaming drunk in order to not feel awkward is just utterly alien to me.

Jim Jarmusch

My situation is quite different but I may as well contribute,

I haven't had a drink since the 3rd week in January 2005 because of medication I started. For a year or two before that the first drink of an evening would always cause my face to flare up and become burning hot for 15-20 minutes like you've just opened the oven door. So I would have go to off licenses and drink outdoors in deserted backstreets to get the reaction out of the way.

Without alcohol my social life ended abruptly, I never had the friends to support this lifestyle. Drinking was the minimum participation in those circles and I had not been into anything stronger partly with the fear of further side effects and it showing up on monthly bloodtests.

I never needed to get smashed to feel comfortable around strangers but a glass or wine or pint would be enough to calm my nerves and help me relax. Softdrinks or Redbull on a night out is horrifying.[/i]

MonkeyDrummer

Quote from: "S!S?"I have no problem with people who choose to not drink but I must admit that when people my age say "I don't like the taste" I tend to think "Well you just haven't acquired it yet."

Maybe they can't be arsed having to justify to you why they don't drink.