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March 28, 2024, 11:36:01 AM

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"...And We'll Fly-y The Fla-a-a-ag?"

Started by TJ, June 02, 2006, 11:32:34 AM

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TJ

Today's issue of The Sun launches a front-cover campaign against the Loony Left PC Do-Gooders who are apparently trying to 'ban' the use of St George's Cross in the forthcoming World Cup celebrations (ie a road haulage company asked their drivers not to affix flags to company vehicles). In short, it essentially urges people to go around waving flags in the faces of passers-by. And literally says "up yours" to the 'PC Brigade'.

The argument gets trotted out again and again and again that nobody should find the use of the Union Jack offensive in any context, and that anyone who does is a mad lesbian Guardian-reader who should just go and *live* in Russia, and that the end of the day it's 'just a flag'.

Is there any such thing as 'just a flag', though? Surely by its very definition, a flag is a symbol of aggression, dominance and subjugation, and it's all but impossible for most practical uses of it (including the vociferous supporting of football teams) to entirely divorce itself from at the very least faint traces of those notions. And people do sometimes get upset by its use and in most cases have every right to. Or do they? Here's a couple of personal examples of flag-waving that have pissed me off royally; you be the judge:

- when I was DJing at a sixties club about ten years ago, some Mods (a cult that I'm never keen on at the best of times) unfurled a Union Jack on the dancefloor and then hung it over the edge of the DJ box. Several of us objected, primarily because it looked as though it had been purposefully put there by the DJs, but were later told that we were the cunts for spoiling their fun.

- the Union Jack used to be a notorious music press bete noire, but not after the Gallagher brothers started making moronic comments in its defence (and before any Oasis defenders leap in, they *were* moronic comments and unarguably so - "that's the greatest flag in the world and it's going down the shitter, so we're here to do something about it"?). Suddenly, in their Gallagher-fellating world, it became possible to sneer at Ian Brown for asking a festival crowd to "take that Union Jack down - I don't want to see it", in a tone that suggested he was doing something wrong and/or laughable.

- the other day, I came back from work to find a car with Union Jacks hanging from it parked outside my place. This is probably extremely irrational, but it really fucked me off no end (and no, it wasn't anything to do with it occupying a parking space or anything like that).

So, what do you think? Are The Sun championing free speech or helping to create a hostile atmosphere?

Purple Tentacle

Quote from: "TJ"Is there any such thing as 'just a flag', though? Surely by its very definition, a flag is a symbol of aggression, dominance and subjugation

That's quite an assumption. A flag can also represent unity, one people under one flag. Especially the Union Flag, representing England, Scotland and Ireland (sorry Wales) as one unified country.

Personally I don't have a problem with the flag, or any flags in general. Of course it HAS been associated with nationalism and the far-right, and that's very sad, but that's hardly the flag's fault.

If one accepts that the idea of being a nation united is a good thing, I don't really see why the idea of a flag is repellent. I don't 'love' the flag any more than I 'love' the UK, but I do like this country a lot, and you need SOMETHING to represent it.

LadyDay

Generally I hate seeing flags everywhere. I was in New York a couple of years ago and found the number of American flags everywhere really disturbing. The only time it's ever acceptable to me is during the World Cup. I remember last time I had a home made England flag in the window on match days and my neighbour had an Irish one, and it was all done in a spirit of fun and we all support all the "home" teams. One thing that really pisses me off is that the bowling/tennis club at the bottom of our gardens have kept their England flag up ever since. It annoys me every time I see it.  It smacks less of patriotism and more of a wish to be antagonistic to me.

One point though, why would you fly the Union flag during the World Cup?

Catalogue Trousers

It's a bit of a grey area. I count myself as an English patriot (because there is still a hell of a lot to love about this country), but I don't feel the need to hang up a St George's Cross, Union Flag/Jack or whatever.

But I wouldn't mind seeing St George's Crosses on cars or whatever, as long as it was all year round. What irrationally irks me is seeing them so displayed purely because In-ger-land is playing a football tournament. Surely there's more to be proud, or fond, of about one's own country than just its bloody football team?

Flags are interesting insofar as they're both pretty meaningless on a national level, but take on more power once they're associated with an obvious cause (the Red Flag of Socialism, the Black Flag of Anarchy etc), regardless of national identity. I'm not sure if that's helpful, but it's certainly interesting (to me, anyway).

Purple Tentacle

Well yeah, my inbuilt snobbishness finds England flags draped out of windows a bit proletarian and tasteless, but that's just because I'm a bit of a twat.

Incidentally, I'd have no problem with a bit of the Welsh flag integrated into the Union Flag. Not the dragon though. Perhaps a bit of green in there somewhere.

TJ

Quote from: "Purple Tentacle"That's quite an assumption. A flag can also represent unity, one people under one flag. Especially the Union Flag, representing England, Scotland and Ireland (sorry Wales) as one unified country.

Woah woah woah hang on, a combined flag forced on two other nations by the English, and generated out of the lingering legacy of their being seized and subsumed by military force? Not a tremendous amount of 'unity' associated with it on anything other than a most superficial level.

QuotePersonally I don't have a problem with the flag, or any flags in general. Of course it HAS been associated with nationalism and the far-right, and that's very sad, but that's hardly the flag's fault.

And, historically (and some might argue not so historically), with subjugation, invasion, imperial theft... but on the other hand it's also been associated with battling the spread of Nazism. Its legacy is quite complex.

QuoteIf one accepts that the idea of being a nation united is a good thing, I don't really see why the idea of a flag is repellent.

Often it isn't a 'good thing', though. Pointless rejections of potentially beneficial European law? A war over a small island that could have been resolved with diplomatic measures, especially as even the near neighbours of the invading nation were telling them they were out of order and should withdraw?

QuoteI don't 'love' the flag any more than I 'love' the UK, but I do like this country a lot, and you need SOMETHING to represent it.

In that case I would suggest Keith Chegwin.

I'm wary of staunch nationalism and flag-waving, even during football matches. Favouring one side (your country) does add to the excitement, but I personally never wear national/team colours/jerseys to sporting events.

hoverdonkey

I find the flag thing embarrassing, but that may be more to do with my own hang-ups about patriotism and the nature of being English. The English have a huge identity crisis.

Purple Tentacle

Quote from: "TJ"
Quote from: "Purple Tentacle"That's quite an assumption. A flag can also represent unity, one people under one flag. Especially the Union Flag, representing England, Scotland and Ireland (sorry Wales) as one unified country.

Woah woah woah hang on, a combined flag forced on two other nations by the English, and generated out of the lingering legacy of their being seized and subsumed by military force? Not a tremendous amount of 'unity' associated with it on anything other than a most superficial level.

The Union flag of England and Scotland came about because James VI of Scotland took the throne after Elizabeth, uniting the nations of England and Scotland peacefully. The English cross lies on stop of the Scottish cross to show that James wanted to demonstrate that he did not see himself as a Scottish invader, rather a king of a United Kingdom.
If anything, Scotland 'invaded' England.

The Irish flag, well, people are still getting murdered and blown up about whether or not they want to be part of the union, it's an issue I don't touch with a 10 foot flagpole.

QuoteAnd, historically (and some might argue not so historically), with subjugation, invasion, imperial theft... but on the other hand it's also been associated with battling the spread of Nazism. Its legacy is quite complex.

Well, quite. A flag is what you make it.

QuoteOften it isn't a 'good thing', though. Pointless rejections of potentially beneficial European law? A war over a small island that could have been resolved with diplomatic measures, especially as even the near neighbours of the invading nation were telling them they were out of order and should withdraw?

These are all actions where the flag was used to justify actions. It doesn't make the flag itself evil.

QuoteIn that case I would suggest Keith Chegwin.

Conflict will always perish in the brotherhood of flags. Everything's all right. It's OK. It's fine.

Hypnotoad.

Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

Marv Orange

Quote from: "Homer J"Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

BNP? PC brigade gooooone maaaad? Snobs?

TJ

Quote from: "Purple Tentacle"
QuoteWoah woah woah hang on, a combined flag forced on two other nations by the English, and generated out of the lingering legacy of their being seized and subsumed by military force? Not a tremendous amount of 'unity' associated with it on anything other than a most superficial level.

The Union flag of England and Scotland came about because James VI of Scotland took the throne after Elizabeth, uniting the nations of England and Scotland peacefully. The English cross lies on stop of the Scottish cross to show that James wanted to demonstrate that he did not see himself as a Scottish invader, rather a king of a United Kingdom.
If anything, Scotland 'invaded' England.

That's a very lenient interpretation of the full historical background, if you don't mind me saying. Yes, James VI's actions are a fair point, but what about the fact that there was any need for a 'peaceful union' (as opposed to a straightforward 'union') in the first place.

Quote
QuoteOften it isn't a 'good thing', though. Pointless rejections of potentially beneficial European law? A war over a small island that could have been resolved with diplomatic measures, especially as even the near neighbours of the invading nation were telling them they were out of order and should withdraw?

These are all actions where the flag was used to justify actions. It doesn't make the flag itself evil.

*Pheee-eeep!* Goalposts, come back!

Sorry about the whimsy PT, but that was a response to your point about accepting the unity of a nation as a 'good thing', rather than whether it makes the flag itself evil (although in such cases it can't help but lend some evil connotations, no?).

Quote
Quote[In that case I would suggest Keith Chegwin.

Conflict will always perish in the brotherhood of flags. Everything's all right. It's OK. It's fine.

You Manford Thirtysixboroughonians are all the same.

mothman

Heh. "The Welsh love their women so much, they put them on their flag." That's the kind of joke that seems to get told in Bristol a lot.

TJ

Quote from: "Homer J"Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

I'll have it about the Star Spangled Banner if you like. I hate seeing that fucking thing.

AlexS

Quote from: "LadyDay"One point though, why would you fly the Union flag during the World Cup?

If you look back to footage of Italia '90 and previous tournaments all the England fans carried Union Jacks, I don't think it was until Euro '96, when it seemed more important to make the further delineation between the countries, that everyone swtiched to St. Georges cross

Hypnotoad.

Quote from: "TJ"
Quote from: "Homer J"Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

I'll have it about the Star Spangled Banner if you like. I hate seeing that fucking thing.

Yes but we don't do we? this discussion only ever comes up whenever there is a Euro/World Cup on, or St Georges day

TJ

Quote from: "Homer J"Yes but we don't do we? this discussion only ever comes up whenever there is a Euro/World Cup on, or St Georges day

Because it's in response to something that a national newspaper has printed today specifically pertaining to flag-waving in this very nation? Just a thought.

Marv Orange

Quote from: "Homer J"
Quote from: "TJ"
Quote from: "Homer J"Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

I'll have it about the Star Spangled Banner if you like. I hate seeing that fucking thing.

Yes but we don't do we? this discussion only ever comes up whenever there is a Euro/World Cup on, or St Georges day

Well this board is populated in the majority by British People. Flag flying in the states isn't peoples concern. Unlike British/English flag flying which is happeneing in our back yard (mine at least).

Hypnotoad.

Quote from: "Marv Orange"
Quote from: "Homer J"
Quote from: "TJ"
Quote from: "Homer J"Why do we only ever have this argument about England and the Cross of St George

I'll have it about the Star Spangled Banner if you like. I hate seeing that fucking thing.

Yes but we don't do we? this discussion only ever comes up whenever there is a Euro/World Cup on, or St Georges day

Well this board is populated in the majority by British People. Flag flying in the states isn't peoples concern. Unlike British/English flag flying which is happeneing in our back yard (mine at least).

Do you go apeshit on St Patricks day?

Catalogue Trousers

Not particularly. I love Guinness and have nothing against the Irish, but all of that cod-Oirish-oh-Danny-boy-leprechaun-shamrock-big-stupid-foam-hat tripe that comes along with St Patrick's Day (at least in England) just annoys me a bit, to be frank. Can't speak for TJ there, obviously.

Marv Orange

Quote from: "Homer J"
Do you go apeshit on St Patricks day?

Yes fuck the Irish and their whiley ways.

Purple Tentacle

Well, I happen to think that the United Kingdom is a good thing, that it's good to have Scotland and Wales as part of the same country. Some people don't, and so they have a valid reason for disliking the flags.  It's rather nice to live in a country with diverse cultures that are united, and while I applaud the Labour government for introducing the Scottish and Welsh assemblies (only 51% in favour, Wales? For shame!), I personally think it would be bad for all three countries to go their seperate ways. Especially for Scotland and Wales.

That said, I've yet to meet a Scottish or Welsh nationalist I've liked.

That's why the flag, to me, is inclusive, rather than exclusive, it represents the people in the country, people from different backgrounds.

If we changed the flag to, I dunno, a bowler hat, a sporran and a leek, would the flag be any better, would racism vanish overnight?  Clearly I'm being slightly facetious, but, given that we need SOMETHING to represent us in the Eurovision contest leader board, it might as well be the Union Flag.

I do find stuff like Last Night At The Proms crass, less so football though, you have to get behind ONE side so it might as well be the country you were born in.


Apologies for leaving Northern Ireland out of my examples above, like I say, that's an issue I'd rather not get sucked into.

slim

All that unnecessary quoting looks a bit like a flag. *cough*

I dislike flags too. They reek of patriotism.

Zuffic

Flags have an awful guilt-by-association connotation don't they. Much more so than anything else that has a one-to-one association with a country (e.g. its name, its national anthem, in some cases - such as Japan - its language).

It's similar to the way there aren't any Hitlers (hardly) left in Germany and Austria. They've all changed their names.

Personally I'm quite proud of Britain and England (not hysterically, and not to the point where I'm myopic to our problems, but y'know. It's a good part of the world). Nothing wrong with waving a flag at the Queen on Jubilee day and singing Rule Britannia. We really shouldn't be embarassed about patriotism - and in particular we shouldn't confuse it with nationalism.

Anyone with two plastic St. George crosses hanging out of a tricked up Vauxhall Nova is - undoubtedly - a wanker, though.

Jemble Fred

This is one of the few subjects on which me and Billy Bragg are not agreed. Stick up the Union Jack, take down St George's Cross. England can get fucked. Anyone who's ever lived on or near a border should realise that we're all one mongrel race co-existing on one very small island – I'm as proud of Robert Burns' legacy as I am Dylan Thomas', or William Wordsworth's.

I know the Union flag itself has been tainted by association with Empire-building, but that's all in the past. As far as I'm concerned it's a symbol of everything that this island has achieved since the first Iberians settled here several thousand years ago – the concepts of 'Scotland', 'Wales' and 'England' are meaningless, modern inventions. As is 'Great Britain' and 'The United Kingdom'. Perhaps we should just rename the whole place Albion.

The bottom line is that unification should be what the future of the human race is all about, not division.

Ah fuck it, I'm not explaining myself well because it's a very long essay to really say what I mean. But, basically – fly the flag for Britain, not just for your own back yard.

EDIT: I'm not against the Scots or Welsh assemblies, by the way – localised government isn't a bad thing at all, as long as we all recognise that we are one country.

Marv Orange

Quote from: "Jemble Fred"This is one of the few subjects on which me and Billy Bragg are not agreed. Stick up the Union Jack, take down St George's Cross. England can get fucked. Anyone who's ever lived on or near a border should realise that we're all one mongrel race co-existing on one very small island – I'm as proud of Robert Burns' legacy as I am Dylan Thomas', or William Wordsworth's.

I know the Union flag itself has been tainted by association with Empire-building, but that's all in the past. As far as I'm concerned it's a symbol of everything that this island has achieved since the first Iberians settled here several thousand years ago – the concepts of 'Scotland', 'Wales' and 'England' are meaningless, modern inventions. As is 'Great Britain' and 'The United Kingdom'. Perhaps we should just rename the whole place Albion.

The bottom line is that unification should be what the future of the human race is all about, not division.

Ah fuck it, I'm not explaining myself well because it's a very long essay to really say what I mean. But, basically – fly the flag for Britain, not just for your own back yard.

EDIT: I'm not against the Scots of Welsh assemblies, by the way – localised government isn't a bad thing, as long as we all recognise that we are one country.

*tear drop*

IT'S INNNNNNSSSSSSSSIIIIIIINNNNCCCCCCCCT!

Hypnotoad.

Christ, it's the world cup, England are taking part, not Scotland/Wales/Ireland, these idiots won't have their flags up come July, does it really fucking matter

TJ

Quote from: "Homer J"Christ, it's the world cup, England are taking part, not Scotland/Wales/Ireland, these idiots won't have their flags up come July, does it really fucking matter

The Sun seems to think so. And that's what inspired this thread.

Xerxes & Friends

Quote from: "Homer J"Christ, it's the world cup, England are taking part, not Scotland/Wales/Ireland, these idiots won't have their flags up come July, does it really fucking matter

Well the point is, the Sun (and the media in general) are doing their usual trick of inventing a "PC Brigade" threat to fight against - but nobody is really trying to prevent anyone from flying anything.  Some people find it a bit tacky or distasteful, but nobody is suggesting banning it as the Sun would have you believe.  They are pretending there is hysteria in order to whip up a different, false hysteria.  I think that was the original point of the thread.

I wouldn't fly a St. George's cross myself because I don't care about football and I find it mindless and slightly embarrassing.  But I don't really care if anyone else wants to do it as part of their enjoyment of the World Cup tournament, it doesn't really affect my life.

However, if one of those cheap spikey plastic fucking things comes off an SUV and takes my eye out while I'm cycling along, I will make sure the twat driver never gets to drive so much as a Segway again in all his useless, unimaginative life.


Edit:  Aha!  I was right, then.