"...And We'll Fly-y The Fla-a-a-ag?"

[Munday's Chylde]

You know what would put the sun's theory as to the innocence of proudly displaying a flag to the test? Have someone pop a couple of argentinian flags off the side of their car instead and have them drive around town for a while - see what pleasant, playful and innocent reactions they get from passersby.

Do many people actually know what the Argentine flag look like? I have no idea, I suspect most other people wouldn't either.

Well its sort of blue with a thing on it.

To be honest though you could probably just make a flag up if you wanted, if you were displaying it from your car during the world cup and it wasn't the british flag you'd still get a lot of loud jeers, beeping horns and rude signals as you drove about.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Only in England would a flag cause more hatred because they beat us at a game of football than because they killed thousands of our people in the war

[Almost Yearly]

I'm not against Brazil winning the World Cup (as long as they play well), and I can be for England winning at the same time.

And Germany (as long as they play well)? Still feel inclusive and happy clappy about that?


Anyhoo it's just a symbol, and symbols can be appropriated by forces of good or evil (see: swastika). So the more it becomes a symbol of aggressive nationalism, the more those of us who are not aggressive nationalists should fly the flag on our poles of positivity. Until recently, all over the world people loved the image of stars and stripes. It stood for freedom. That's because it was appropriated ironically by the anti-war hippies and Peter Fonda painted it on his lid. Now it's evil again, and you don't want it on your shorts when you travel.

That might be shit, I'm pissed.

[Purple Tentacle]

I'm not against Brazil winning the World Cup (as long as they play well), and I can be for England winning at the same time.

And Germany (as long as they play well)? Still feel inclusive and happy clappy about that?

Well obviously not Germany. Don't be silly.

[Robot Devil]

To be honest though you could probably just make a flag up if you wanted, if you were displaying it from your car during the world cup and it wasn't the british flag you'd still get a lot of loud jeers, beeping horns and rude signals as you drove about.

Someone has to try this and it may have to be me.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I sit next to an Argentinian at work. Shall I punch him in the head?

[Zuffic]

Don't mention the war.

[slim]

I agree! I love going to Italy, for example, because the Italians are fucking crazy. The parking, the shouting, the arguing, I love it. A world where everyone is the same (and dressed in tight spandex) would be bloody boring, why leave your house?

People are going to be different anyway, without a prevailing sense of national identity. Culture will continue to go off in it's own little directions, on a smaller scale in countries themselves, and between countries, without the need to impose a sense of community or solidarity.

What I mean is; I'm me. I'm undoubtedly influenced by the society and culture I grew up in, but I see myself as a person, not an Englishman, or a European. I'm just me. Flags seem to me to be a way of falsely implying a solidarity that doesn't exist. Being English doesn't seem to make people want to help the poor and starving in their own country. If you're going to have a sense of national community and identity, it should be offset by a sense of responsibility.

Or maybe I'm asking too much. It just seems like flag waving patriots want all the zeitgeist and sense of belonging that their attitude conveys without any of the responsibility.

[uncle_rico]

This has been on my mind for a while.

As a Welshman,I love our flag. Seeing it on top of a pole,blowing in the wind,is a beautiful sight. But whenever I see it on people clothes or tattooed on their arms,I can't help but cringe. And where I live in the valleys,there's an awful lot of them about. I get afraid if I ever spoke up about it in mixed company,I'd end up with my head through a pub wall. I wish I wasn't living where I'm living sometimes.

I think the association with football and rugby is what annoys me the most,but most people have mentioned that already.

[El Unicornio, mang]

To be honest though you could probably just make a flag up if you wanted, if you were displaying it from your car during the world cup and it wasn't the british flag you'd still get a lot of loud jeers, beeping horns and rude signals as you drove about.

Someone has to try this and it may have to be me.

Make it a Trinidad and Tobago flag. No-one will recognise it, and those that do will be too busy laughing to give you any trouble

[lankinpark]

And, historically (and some might argue not so historically), with subjugation, invasion, imperial theft... but on the other hand it's also been associated with battling the spread of Nazism. Its legacy is quite complex.

Isn't the answer, then, to have a new flag? Something which symbolises and represents everything England/Britain/Whatever wants to be in the 21st century and doesn't have these connotations or Empire or slavery?

If we'd just had a revolution there'd be a new flag flying. Perhaps we could do it the other way round - get rid of the huge visual reminders and maybe people would realise we're just some piddly little island and not the same country that ruled the world a hundred years ago.

[Marv Orange]

Isn't the answer, then, to have a new flag? Something which symbolises and represents everything England/Britain/Whatever wants to be in the 21st century and doesn't have these connotations or Empire or slavery?

In this age of focus groups, cogsigina and the like, it would be a very bad idea. At least the Union Jack has some logic applied to its design.

[lankinpark]

In this age of focus groups, cogsigina and the like, it would be a very bad idea. At least the Union Jack has some logic applied to its design.

Ah, fuck focus groups. Just get a famous artist to knock something up. Tracey Emin might be interesting. Or Rolf Harris, 'cos he's foreign and we've adopted him, which is England in a nutshell really.

Or perhaps just follow the trend of having three stripes with some iconic picture in the middle. Of Alison Lapper, naturally.

[chav]

It'd end up looking like a doodle by an 8-year-old with crayons. Somewhere in the design would be incorporated a heart.

[Mister Cairo]

Good to see the Sun continuing their grammatical accuracy and using two dots where three are needed.
I would e-mail them but then there would be a column saying "Grammer Nazis Try To Correct Your Sun's Spelling".
It is interesting the killjoys they list:
They say:

Killjoys at cable giant NTL are among the latest party-poopers — ordering van drivers and subcontractors to tear down their flags in case they offend Muslims.

but:

The company insisted: "We work in many multicultural areas and in different countries within Britain so we want to maintain a professional image and a sense of impartiality."

so not just Muslims, then. BNP-style twisting of the facts.

CONSTRUCTION WORKERS at Heathrow's Terminal 5. Bosses claim St George crosses pose a health and safety risk — because the flags might get caught in the wind and fly on to a runway.

Isn't health and safety important? Or do the Sun think any flags will be eaten by the hordes of immigrants standing on the wings waiting for a Lada car and a council house?

Myself, I've got nothing against flying the flag- most European countries have dodgy colonian histories (Belguim, France) and are big arms dealers. I don't see why we shouldn't if these countries still do.  Plus the huge majority of the former British Empire has been granted independence.

Therefore I don't mind (and rather like) seeing the odd English flag hanging from a window. In many areas other nations hang out their flags, so it becomes very multicultural. Having them on your car though- its like the driver is paranoid and drives around stating how much he loves England, like he secretly has a crush on Spain or something. And despite the Sun's moaning, they don't look very firm- what happens if someone's doing 70 on the M4 and a couple fly off?

I wonder what one of these drivers would do if a pigeon shat on one of his flags.

[Ciarán2]

Yes, patriotism and "shame" and "pride". I've just been thinking - is there anything negative in saying "I don't consider myself a patriot"? Because I can't think of anything wrong with such a statement. And I agree with Catalogue Trousers, anyone should see the good and bad of the country, but what then does it mean to love your country? It's a silly outmoded idea I think. We love every country, don't we? Doesn't it all go back to the whole idea of empire? Furthering, say, Britain's interests in competition against those of, say, the Dutch? We don't need to feel that way now, and I think this is why it comes to the fore around football, which is like a modern-day warfare. Which is the way it should be.

[El Unicornio, mang]

How about a nice John Squire flag proposal?

[terminallyrelaxed]

The Sun's full of shit as usual, as Daves said stirring up nonsense in typical tabloid fashion. However, I don't agree that the English flag or the Union Jack are anything to be ashamed of. PT has already explained that the flag is a uniting symbol more succinctly than I can, and I'm very tired so I apologise for my sentence structure or what have you.

This idea that flags have historical connotations. Well, most of them do. The French flew the Tricolore when they invaded their colonies, and they'll still be flying it when they play Cameroon or Senegal or whoever. They're still proud of it. It isn't tainted. Its only because the Nazis had their own symbols that we don't associate the German flag with WW2, but thats because people like the employees of The Sun associate Germany with WW2 and won't let us forget it. Countries flags and colors have certainly represented them in battles throughout history, but thats because its their national symbol, and now, later on their flags are representing them in a modern setting, a friendly game of football - isn't that much nicer?
Considering a lot of these other countries aren't entirely blameless in the empire, invasion, ethnic cleansing stakes and yet are still happy to have their flags out as the world championship finals approach, doesn't it make all this hand-wringing seem a little pathetic? Sorry don't mean to sound aggressive, thats just how a feel. I mean, how long do we should we beat ourselves up over the Boers?
It seems to me that an awful lot of the war-scale problems in the world are caused by historical resentment, we're all desperate for the Middle East and elsewhere to look forward, to move on, why can't a flag be a symbol of inclusiveness, of possibility, diversity (which we wouldn't have to the same extent without the legacy of empire), the Italians have moved on, why can't we? I see an Italian flag and I think of pasta, beautiful women, that bridge in Florence, Tuscany, Baggio, I don't think "that's the bastard they were flying off their tanks when they rolled through Abyssinia".

I won't go back and quote him but Daves was saying that a lot of his negative feelings for the flag were due to the kind of people who flaunt it - and thats just the problem for me. Just because some twats wear it all the time and and also have no idea how to behave doesn't mean I have to be ashamed of it. I don't wear it but I think it looks great when theres a whole stadium half full of white-and-red shirts and and flags and half full of another country's colours, or a pub full of white shirts.
I'm not obsessed with football but I like a good game, and this is weeks of by definition world-class football, and we're in it, we've made it to the finals, what's wrong with a little pride, a little celebration of us, a handy symbol of togetherness?

I don't buy this idea that international football itself has connotations of aggressive nationalism. For me its because its grouped together the very best players from two whole countries, which means it ought to be a cracking match, and if we* win it that means we played better were more skilled, we were better, not because we subconsciously want to annexe their peninsulas and pillage their grannies.

*"We"! See? Inclusiveness! Togetherness! Group hug, my office, now, this instant.

[Ciarán2]

Good post, TR.  :-)

It would be pretty ignorant, though, to forget how flags are used to impose one's power on others. There's a US flag on the moon - why do you think it's there? Should we be "proud" of that?

I agree with you overall - we have flags, we may as well make our identification with the group positive. Great, but we should discard the shit that goes along with it, expressly so. We're not far enough away from the whole colonial thing to just let it pass. I really don't think the St George's Flag has nasty connotations, as TJ does. No explaing needs to be done. Be happy, support your team.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Good post, TR.  :-)

It would be pretty ignorant, though, to forget how flags are used to impose one's power on others. There's a US flag on the moon - why do you think it's there? Should we be "proud" of that?
.

Yeah, there's this guy in my office who was going on "The moon, that's ours. We put the flag there, that means we own the moon"

Although this is the same person who said America should nuke the whole of Iraq then go in and steal all the oil

[easytarget]

Wow - those Trinidad and Tobagans must really like Van Halen:

[humanleech]

I don't think it's a good idea to have a controversialist Sun piece as a starting point for a discussion.

[terminallyrelaxed]

Good post, TR.  :-)

Thanks! I'm surprised it legible, to be honest...

It would be pretty ignorant, though, to forget how flags are used to impose one's power on others. There's a US flag on the moon - why do you think it's there? Should we be "proud" of that?

I don't understand. How are flags used to impose power? They might be the symbol of a power that is imposing all sorts of things, but everything's got to have a logo, a recognisable mark. Skull on a stick. So there's a US flag on the moon - why do I think its there? To say that someone's been there, and they happened to be American. What would you prefer? a string of corporate banners? Hasselblad, Good Year, the other equipment providers? After all, the US taxpayer paid for the whole thing, its their show, why would they put anything else there? Why would we be proud of it? I'm English and you're Irish aren't you? But I don't see why the average American should'nt be quite chuffed to be a citizen of the only country to have landed on the moon. Yeah it might have been a cold war race with the Russians, they should have spent it on education and healthcare, but its still quite an achievement.

I agree with you overall - we have flags, we may as well make our identification with the group positive. Great, but we should discard the shit that goes along with it, expressly so. We're not far enough away from the whole colonial thing to just let it pass. I really don't think the St George's Flag has nasty connotations, as TJ does. No explaing needs to be done. Be happy, support your team.

Cool, cheers, but when will we be far enough away from the colonial thing? Alright we only gave some of them up less than fifty years ago, but we didn't take them by fire and the sword for hundreds of years before that. Some other countries have a lot, lot more to be ashamed of in much, much more recent years, but do we hate them, or indeed their football fans? No, because we're grown-ups who can see things as being in the past, reconciliation etc, we're not all pub historians, germans dont equal Nazis, we don't hate the Russians because of the Crimean War and that was more recent than most of our transgressions. Granted there are morons everywhere but isn't it a bit insulting to think that your average Chinese football fan isn't capable of the same view?

[Mister Cairo]

Maybe Britain should have a tag instead, which all patriotic Britons can spray on their wall.

[Almost Yearly]

Isn't the answer, then, to have a new flag? Something which symbolises and represents everything England/Britain/Whatever wants to be in the 21st century and doesn't have these connotations or Empire or slavery?

It's the colour of a red P-reg Escort under a sodium streetlamp. The average skin colour of the population on a rainy day. A cup of tea. Graphically it represents all our hopes and forward-thinking radical concepts of what the UK should be.

There's a US flag on the moon - why do you think it's there?

It's kept 'flying' by a bit of plastic, know what I mean.

[Ciarán2]

How are flags used to impose power? They might be the symbol of a power that is imposing all sorts of things, but everything's got to have a logo, a recognisable mark.

You know that bit in Eddie Izzard's video "Dress To Kill" I think it is, he's talking about the Europeans arriving in America, and they say to the natives, "Oh you own this place do you? Do you a have A FLAG??" He's making quite a pertinent point, it's about forgeing communal identity, and eroding a different identity. There's a chap in Trinity who is campaigning for the Irish flag to be flown at the front of Trinity College in Dublin. Now, I must admit, Trinity is a tourist attraction as well as a university. But there's a heck of a lot to take into account. The university was built by the British for the British. Its church is Protestant, it has a cricket pitch, a large number of its students are English, a large number of its alumni were Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Yeats etc). It is referred to as "West Britain" by a good deal of Dubliners, with reason. It is as much a British institution as it is an Irish one. and this chap is expecting to reclaim it. Good luck to him, but it's not a cause I care about much. Not if the job of putting the flag there is to claim the institution as "ours" and not "theirs" - the institution should be everybody's, it shouldn't have a flag at all. And it doesn't at the moment. To foist a flag on something is to attempt to forge an identity, isn't it? The Sun is currently wrapping itself in the St George's Flag, and it questionable to what end they are really doing this, but the flag itself, I personally wouldn't have a problem with.

Skull on a stick. So there's a US flag on the moon - why do I think its there? To say that someone's been there, and they happened to be American. What would you prefer? a string of corporate banners? Hasselblad, Good Year, the other equipment providers? After all, the US taxpayer paid for the whole thing, its their show, why would they put anything else there?

Who are they putting it there for? Aliens? And what does it mean? It isn't just "we happen to be American", it was also "we are resolutley NOT Soviet!", if we're branching into space, why not have a "World flag" or - perish the thought - no flag at all?? There is a banality there, definitely, they are just Americans and it is a fact that it was Americans who first walked on the moon, but there's a whole lot going on symbolically in why they felt the need to stick a flag in it and claim it. It says to everyone on the Earth, WE got here first, NOT the Russians, the Brits or the Irish.

Why would we be proud of it? I'm English and you're Irish aren't you? But I don't see why the average American should'nt be quite chuffed to be a citizen of the only country to have landed on the moon. Yeah it might have been a cold war race with the Russians, they should have spent it on education and healthcare, but its still quite an achievement.

I'm chuffed that man can reach the moon, I'm not interested especially that it was an American man who reached it first. I think it's significant, of course, but given their resources and their subsuquent drive for atomic power, it's a little tarnished. It's a human achievement, and this is sometimes stressed. I don't see much value in stressing that it was an American achievement. It's a banal fact, ok.

Cool, cheers, but when will we be far enough away from the colonial thing? Alright we only gave some of them up less than fifty years ago, but we didn't take them by fire and the sword for hundreds of years before that. Some other countries have a lot, lot more to be ashamed of in much, much more recent years, but do we hate them, or indeed their football fans? No, because we're grown-ups who can see things as being in the past, reconciliation etc, we're not all pub historians, germans dont equal Nazis, we don't hate the Russians because of the Crimean War and that was more recent than most of our transgressions. Granted there are morons everywhere but isn't it a bit insulting to think that your average Chinese football fan isn't capable of the same view?

I don't really think that any country should feel ashamed, as I said in other posts, it doesn't make much sense to me to feel ashamed or proud on behalf of the country they live in or happened to be born in. I think responsibility, is good. Holding your hands up as a Brit and saying "You know what - Nelson and all that, the ruling of the waves, the conquering of other lands, the spread of English - it's not such a good thing, we destroyed people systematically in bringing it about, we acted unethically, it's the worst of our culture. But we have truly great culture too. " (Well, it's not down to just you to do this obviously, it's tied to the whole question of national identity...)

I do often wonder how history is taught in England, because we obviously have a very different attitude to empire than you do. I understand that though. A mate of mine used to say that the Irish are superior to the Brits because we wouldn't dream of attacking another nation, even if historically we had had the man power. I don't go along with that. And that's the basis for my understanding of colonialism - it happened, it was cruel and stupid, but let's move on. We shouldn't just forget it though, there are lessons to be learned. And you're right, those English fans who really feel that history is history and belongs as a text from which we learn, are right. Yes, Chinese people and everyone else is susceptible to shoddy thinking, but there you go.

[Partridge's Love Child]

when I was DJing at a sixties club about ten years ago, some Mods [...] unfurled a Union Jack on the dancefloor and then hung it over the edge of the DJ box.

Seen as the Mod culture was based initially upon Jazz, then Motown, soul and latterly West Indian Ska and Rude Boy culture, you should've pointed out that they were missing the point.  Then used their flag to stop the nosebleed they'd given you.

[Tibetan Singing Bowl]

How To Annoy Americans(tm)

[chand]

My Croatian ladyfriend and I laughed out loud when we saw the cover of the Sun yesterday; she'd been having an online argument with someone who claimed that people were BANNED from flying the flag of St George which had made us notice the amount of flags flying around here even more. The hotel around the corner from me put up a few England flags, and the other day they realised they still had 9 flags of other countries hanging outside, as many hotels do. So they took all those flags down and replaced them with nine English flags, plus two in the front windows and a huge one on the flagpole. It looks rather absurd.

Anyway, clearly it's nonsense that anyone important is banning the flag in any way. The reason we have this debate is because we're not usually a particularly flag-waving people. When we do it now it seems forced and false. I can understand flag-waving in smaller countries and countries who have had to fight for their independence recently, but here I don't feel it necessary. I'm happy to be English, I think England is a beautiful country and I'll support the team in the World Cup, but beyond that I don't feel the need to celebrate my national boundaries. And part of the reason for that is that I don't believe the same things as everyone in England. When I see things like that Sun cover, I realise that there's a huge proportion of this nation whose beliefs lie totally opposite to mine. I appreciate there are a few things that are described as 'English values', but none of them are exclusive to us, and of course many English people believe things I can't get behind. Y'know, I find it hard to believe in the idea of a shared set of national values when I disagree with so many English people on issues like the death penalty, immigration and of course even the issue of the flag and national identity itself.

People can fly the flag if they want, but like any symbol, when I see it I'm going to ask myself why they're doing it. My mum's flying it off her car and she doesn't give a shit about football; she's doing it out of a vague sense of loyalty to a country she constantly complains about (she's really quite right-wing and thinks it's got too liberal), and also because she's swallowed the idea that we're being told we can't fly it, so she's gonna damn well show those liberal nanny state fascists what the deal is.

[chand]

Oh yeah, speaking of which, another thing about this post-Euro 96 flag-flying which leaves me scratching my head: the concept of English 'patriots' flying flags with WRITING ON. Over the years I've noticed people flying flags with fucking corporate logos scrawled across them; a woman across my street hung one out with a big fucking Umbro logo on and there are many around with COCA-COLA scrawled across them. How can that be? How can you possibly claim to believe in the symbolism of a flag and yet be content to fly one that has been besmirched by corporate allegiances, especially companies that aren't even English? Fucking pick a side!

The worst are the kind that my mum has on her car; St George flags that have the word 'ENGLAND' written on them. The thought processes behind that just blow my mind. The point of the flag is that it's a traditional symbol; if you fly it, surely you should fly the true version of it, not one which has had its purity compromised by such a banal piece of writing. We know the flag is the flag of England, so why the fuck would you write 'England' across it? An art lover wouldn't want a print of the Mona Lisa with 'THE MONA LISA' writ large in genero-bubble-font right across the centre of her face.