Jack Straw- Women who wear veils make community relations more difficult.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You idiot Jack Straw. He must have known this would happen...

But the Islamic Human Rights Commission claimed the Blackburn MP's request would cause selective discrimination.

"It is astonishing that someone as experienced and senior as Jack Straw does not realise that the job of an elected representative is to represent the interests of the constituency, not to selectively discriminate on the basis of religion," said commission chairman Massoud Shadjareh.

And Halima Hussain from Muslim Public Affairs Committee asked: "Who is Jack Straw to comment on negative symbols within a religion that is not his own

I don't think these people actually read the details of what is said.

"Who is Jack Straw to comment on negative symbols within a religion that is not his own

That is his right. He's in a slightly better position than most of us to do so too. I don't get the theory behind this argument at all. You're not Islamic so you can't criticize anything about Islam. Superb reasoning there from a spokesperson of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

"Who is Jack Straw to comment on negative symbols within a religion that is not his own

That is his right. He's in a slightly better position than most of us to do so too. I don't get the theory behind this argument at all.

"If you had children you'd understand."

[Felatio Imperative]

Why are you so upset? If that didn't happen you'd have no target to gleefully attack. That must be partly why you're here I suppose. Your voice would probably melt away in the sludge of other forums. Here you're different...special.

I go on many forums, but why preach to the converted when you can preach to a bunch of hippies instead?

[Baxter]

Only at Christmas.

[Felatio Imperative]

(picture)

Wasn't that picture of the Queen taken on a visit to an Islamic country, thus she dressed appropriately to respect Eastern traditions?

Just a thought...

[terminallyrelaxed]

Snow and a Muslim woman are being frightfully reasonable at each other about this on 4 now.

[Santa's Boyfriend]

why preach to the converted when you can preach to a bunch of hippies instead?

A hippy, yesterday.

[sanchopanza]

I'm getting more pissed off by the day with all this pish.  I dont like muslims because they make it difficult for me to travel.  Simple.

[Borboski]

Isn't this what we'd call "community leadership"?  Aren't our leaders supposed to ask sensible questions?

I'd prefer to see someone's eyes and face if I'm talking to them.  We should be able to suggest this! If someone replies that it's really important to them that they wear it, that they don't mean me any disrespect, and it's their choice, well, who gives a fuck, fine, I won't mention it again.

And then the rabid muslim leadership responds with totallly accusatory and aggressive statements.  Silly twats.  And the rabid muslim leadership wonders why people distrust rabid muslims!

[Felatio Imperative]

why preach to the converted when you can preach to a bunch of hippies instead?

(picture)

A hippy, yesterday.

Actually, I quite like ol' Georgey boy. At least he has the courage of his convictions, even if they are a little misguided. I like his oratory style, too.

[Santa's Boyfriend]

None of this would really be a problem if there wasn't such a strong perception in the Muslim community that they are under attack.  You might say that it's not unreasonable to want to see someone's face, and you may be right about that - but the problem is that anything that questions muslim customs is going to be seen as an attack on the muslim community, even if it isn't.  I really don't think that the issue now is whether this is good or not, but whether this is inflammatory or not.  

The veil is an expression of religion, and as long as a woman has the right to decide for themselves whether they wear it or not, I really don't think it should be brought up as an issue right now, regardless of whether you feel it is a social problem or not.  The social akwardness of the veil is quite simply a far lesser evil than the alienation and resentment that would be created if the veil was in any way restricted or banned.

[sproggy]

Wasn't that picture of the Queen taken on a visit to an Islamic country, thus she dressed appropriately to respect Eastern traditions?

Just a thought...

Well I live in the East (Norfolk to be exact) and we have lots of traditions, some not so wholesome, and we sort of rub along o.k.

Over here in Eastern Land respect is earned and loud mouths tend to get ignored for the good and benefit of the whole.

[Felatio Imperative]

But that's protectionism. You cannot exclude a group from scrutiny just because they feel a bit sensitive right now. Let's face it, when don't they? When would be a good time to mention it?

[Mr. Analytical]

I thought Jack Straw was right.  It's human nature to relate more easily to people when you can see them face to face, I mean many's the social faux pas that occurs around glory holes.

But the reaction of some of the self-appointed "leaders of the muslim community" was ridiculous.  Someone says that they find it difficult to talk to someone wearing a black hood and suggests that it's quite a visible sign of Otherness and they react by saying it's offensive.

How is that offensive?  It's a fact about human nature and completely value free.

I think that the "leaders of the muslim community" just aren't even bothering to read the papers anymore, they probably don't answer the phone and have a recorded message

"Thank you for calling the Project for a New British Caliphate, please hold the line, your call is important to Allah.  If you are a journalist calling us for a comment or an interview then please state that we are terribly offended by the remarks regardless of their content or context"

[Felatio Imperative]

Wasn't that picture of the Queen taken on a visit to an Islamic country, thus she dressed appropriately to respect Eastern traditions?

Just a thought...

Well I live in the East (Norfolk to be exact) and we have lots of traditions, some not so wholesome, and we sort of rub along o.k.

Over here in Eastern Land respect is earned and loud mouths tend to get ignored for the good and benefit of the whole.

You rub along OK, do you? Ask the Portuguese community what they think.

[Felatio Imperative]

I think that the "leaders of the muslim community" just aren't even bothering to read the papers anymore, they probably don't answer the phone and have a recorded message

"Thank you for calling the Project for a New British Caliphate, please hold the line, your call is important to Allah.  If you are a journalist calling us for a comment or an interview then please state that we are terribly offended by the remarks regardless of their content or context"

"If you're a police chief requesting permission to raid a Muslims house, the answer is no."

[sproggy]

You rub along OK, do you? Ask the Portuguese community what they think.

Well they will go and beat us at football, what do they expect?

How do you know I'm not Portuguese? or Greek or Turkish, or Kosovan or Polish?  They're all large 'communities' but seem to integrate o.k.

Muslims seem to pride themselves on being awkward for awkward's sake lately.  Take the muslim policeman who asked to be taken off duty protecting the Israeli embassy, since when did political leanings prevent a policeman from carrying out his civic duty?

[Felatio Imperative]

You rub along OK, do you? Ask the Portuguese community what they think.

Well they will go and beat us at football, what do they expect?

How do you know I'm not Portuguese? or Greek or Turkish, or Kosovan or Polish?  They're all large 'communities' but seem to integrate o.k.

Muslims seem to pride themselves on being awkward for awkward's sake lately.  Take the muslim policeman who asked to be taken off duty protecting the Israeli embassy, since when did political leanings prevent a policeman from carrying out his civic duty?

Sorry, I was being a little facetious there. I only know what I've read so I shouldn't really comment on Norfolk.
I agree with you on the Muslim issue. It seems they have found the ideal way to detract any criticism or scrutiny and they will continue to use it as long as it is effective. Who are these Muslim leaders anyway? Who elected them exactly, and what influence do they have?

[Santa's Boyfriend]

But that's protectionism. You cannot exclude a group from scrutiny just because they feel a bit sensitive right now. Let's face it, when don't they? When would be a good time to mention it?

"Feeling a bit sensitive right now" is somewhat different to feeling openly persecuted.  It's perception that is important here.  Whether true or not, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is percieved amongst many muslims as an attack on islam.  We can't simply ignore that perception or simply say "well that's wrong" - we have to address it directly and do all we can to calm such fears, and one way of helping that is by not making comments like Straws which, although probably well-intentioned, will only feed the perceptions of those who believe Islam is being attacked.  

Yes, there is much to be criticised in many people's interpretation of Islam as there is in Christianity, Judaism and indeed any religion you care to mention.  But addressing sensitive issues in the middle of a volatile situation simply isn't sensible.

[Felatio Imperative]

But that's protectionism. You cannot exclude a group from scrutiny just because they feel a bit sensitive right now. Let's face it, when don't they? When would be a good time to mention it?

"Feeling a bit sensitive right now" is somewhat different to feeling openly persecuted.  It's perception that is important here.  Whether true or not, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is percieved amongst many muslims as an attack on islam.  We can't simply ignore that perception or simply say "well that's wrong" - we have to address it directly and do all we can to calm such fears, and one way of helping that is by not making comments like Straws which, although probably well-intentioned, will only feed the perceptions of those who believe Islam is being attacked.  

Yes, there is much to be criticised in many people's interpretation of Islam as there is in Christianity, Judaism and indeed any religion you care to mention.  But addressing sensitive issues in the middle of a volatile situation simply isn't sensible.

I largely agree with that. But how much of that perception is genuine and how much is opportunistic? Dare we find out? Islam is being empowered in the west due to concessions made on the back of world events. Do we all scurry off back into our mouse holes and wait for the wind of change? Remember, our own perceptions are borne out of world events too. Salmon Rushdie, 911, 711, Theo Van Gough, Danish cartoons, etc.

[Garfield And Friends]

Cloaked visages are down the pecking order of problems with Islam.

The very intolerant positions to and grave treatment of apostates, critics/satirists, non-muslims and gays is a much bigger deal.

[Pinball]

I love the "Western imperialism" argument. How did Catholicism and Islam prevail in the first place? By conquering. Religion is far from being a victim.

e.g. Muslims conquered Iran in the 7th century AD.

And subjugating women is a relatively recent phenomenon of their imposed belief and social system. Personally I prefer free thought, although I am illiberal enough to ponder why "veiled women" and other extreme (for that is what they are) religious zealots deign to live in a liberal secular democratic country. It must be awful for them. Unless their plan is to out-fuck us to a majority or something.

[Mr. Analytical]

"If you're a police chief requesting permission to raid a Muslims house, the answer is no."

 We laugh about that kind of thing but I'm always slightly freaked out when Blair or the Police do something British Muslims don't like and the response is "this fuels terrorism".

 Always strikes me that there's an implied threat there.  As in "Do what we say or we won't be held responsible when our young start blowing themselves up".

[Pinball]

I have to say that Muslims as a whole freak me out a bit, and can seem a little unhinged with their indoctrinal views, when you explore them. Deeply held beliefs would be an understatement.

Example: when I was a student I had a Muslim friend who was the kindest bloke you could know. Always smiling, life of the party, asked after you etc. Then one day we chatted about Salman Rushdie, and he said if he met him he would kill him. Totally out of the blue. I joked and said he can't be serious, but he was. Deadly. And he was a medical student!

Fucking nutter.

[All Surrogate]

... it's midnight in the dark ages just the thickness of a book away, the thickness of a skull away; just the turn of a page away.

[sproggy]

It's perception that is important here.  Whether true or not, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is percieved amongst many muslims as an attack on islam.

So what hopeful outcome did the London Bombers perceive last year I wonder?

Didn't they kill several muslims in that attack?

The whole situation is utterly depressing and I don't know what to think anymore.

[Pinball]

Death & destruction. It's - very sadly - what humans do best.

[Frinky]

No it isn't.

[Craig Torso]

So because some people are a little uncomfortable about something then those doing it should jolly well stop it?

What about Jews wearing skull caps?  Or Sikhs wearing turbans?  They're just as much an image of 'otherness'.

I don't like seeing people dressed in heavily branded clothes, it's a sure sign that someone thinks different to me but I wouldn't dare to ask them to stop wearing those clothes.  

Jack Straw's argument is pointless but what a marvellous excuse for people to they don't like people who are different to them.