Newer Doctor Who

[mothman]

I don't see what it should be such a problem to have Catherine Tate in it. She's a reasonably talented actress who, granted, has lazily allowed a mild gift for comedy to be stretched way beyond its natural limit (a bit like Leslie Nielsen in everything he's done since the first Naked Gun film). So, provided there isn't in fact a part of the sequence above (though not included in this cut, but in the aired show at Crimbo) where she says to the taxi driverbot "Am I bovvered? What a fucking liberty! How very dare you!" I'm not going to get too worried about it.

[benthalo]

I refuse to look at the clip. I'm a strict one viewing only boy for new Who these days.

I loved The Christmas Invasion on first screening. It was only the multiple screenings afterwards that made it all fall apart, but that's my fault. The initial buzz... wow.

Last Christmas, I watched Doctor Who with my Dad for the first time in twenty years and we roared with laughter at it.  As my parents seem to have lost interest during series two, that's probably the last time it will ever happen.

The second viewing with my partner was less joyous and far more critical, but we're both fans so you expect that.  Nonetheless, first viewing is generall sacrosanct, go-with-the-buzz-of-it viewing.  I reserve the right to feel fuzzy for an hour and then stop halfway up the stairs with a "hang on, what happened to all the monks?"

[difbrook]

yes, indeed. That first-buzz viewing, coupled (if at all possible) with the unspoilered surprise, is one of the things that makes that first viewing sacred. They nearly pulled off the unspoilered surprise at the end of Army of Ghosts, although that was more a "they can't possibly do what I think they're going to do. They bloody well are!"

It's a great feeling, and if it does all fall apart on the next viewing (and the one after that, and the one after that, and so on) that's ok. I do treasure those little moments. The last ten minutes of "The Doctor Dances" remain fairly shining in my head just because of the impact they had first time round.  

I mean, I was convinced that "The Girl in the Fireplace" was the best episode of Who ever after my initial viewing. I've calmed down a bit now, but it was a hell of a feeling.

[Mr. Analytical]

You just want to moan, don't you?

 Not at all... I'm just saying that I'm not impressed on the basis of that clip.

[Ghost of Troubled Joe]

The only thing that pissed me off about TCI was the satsuma ending; that was very lazy. But the Doctor's regenerating hand? Come on, that was cool.  

I think Torchwood would benefit hugely from more RTD scripts. He only wrote the first episode, and I thought that was the best one! Even if it was a rewrite of "Rose" etc. etc. Has anyone heard this rumour that Davies, Gardner, Collinson, Gold, and Tennant all plan to go at the same time after Series 4? Not sure what the specifics are but OG's in a tizzy over it.

[difbrook]

The only thing that pissed me off about TCI was the satsuma ending; that was very lazy. But the Doctor's regenerating hand? Come on, that was cool.  

I think Torchwood would benefit hugely from more RTD scripts. He only wrote the first episode, and I thought that was the best one! Even if it was a rewrite of "Rose" etc. etc. Has anyone heard this rumour that Davies, Gardner, Collinson, Gold, and Tennant all plan to go at the same time after Series 4? Not sure what the specifics are but OG's in a tizzy over it.

toys out of prams, Ian Levine, etc.

If you really want to know how depressing fandom can be, read on. If not, feel free to skip to the next message.

It all started when Ian Levine posted this at his forum...

"Unfortunately I know some rather secret and rather horrible information that I daren't actually leak, but all I will do is give you a hint till something more concrete leaks out....

Those who stood to gain the most from Doctor Who's success might be the very people to intentionally end it."


Followed by this... Ian decides to tell all, after a fan called Paul Mount posts more or less the same thing.

"The "plan" apparently, so I have been told by various insiders, is that David Tennant, Rusell, Julie, and Phil all leave together after series four. Jane Tranter is apparently, so I'm led to believe, adamant that no-one else can produce it and refuses to allow any other producer to do so, and is determined to end it, so I am told.

BBC films are interested in spending a "couple of years" to see if they can develop a movie instead (this is, in my opinion, the worst possible thing that could ever happen to us and a return to the early 1990s all over again)"


He could just have stayed quiet about it. As it is, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we had a bit of a break after year four. Simply because the current Who is so entwined with the house style, it might take a while to get a new team in place. Of course, Jon, Terrance and Barry all left after season 11, and that was after five seasons. Four years is still four more years than I ever expected.

Anyroad, fandom's gone into *meltdown*.

Massive thread on the Outpost (now locked), Levine forum on overload, and someone called "Jason" has sent this to Jane Tranter. Bear in mind that none of this is even *confirmed*....

"Dear Ms Tranter,

I am writing to you as a concerned Doctor Who fan on behalf of Doctor Who fans everywhere. I read a report by respected long term fan Ian Levine advising of your intentions towards the Doctor Who series. These were re-inforced by respected long term fan Paul Mount. This rumour has been circulating in Doctor Who fan circles in chat rooms and online forums that the BBC intend to end the new run of Doctor Who after the fourth series.

I recognise your right to do that and your accountability to the public in your decisions. I also recognise that under your tutelage the BBC Drama output has been transformed and even with the odd stinker, such as "The Innocence Project" and "The Amazing Mrs Pritchard" there are a great many successes. "The State Within" is excellent and the new "Robin Hood" has been a wonderful success.

All it would take to allay the fear of the fans is an assurance that the show has a long term future and is part of the BBC's plans. I felt confident that Russell T Davies had found his successor when he had appointed the highly talented Gary Russell to the program team. I feel the fans felt the show was confident in this seasoned professionals hands. Now the fans are concerned and not so sure of the BBC's intentions.

Please can you allay our concerns.

Yours respectfully


Jason <surname>"

At this point, a glimmer of good humour emerges, as someone on Roobarbs immediately took the wording, amended it and sent it like this to the head of BBC3...

"Dear Mr Bellamy,

I'm a big fan of BBC3's comedies, from "Little Britain" to, well, "Little Britain". Who needs to buy a DVD when thanks to the miracle of digital television I can watch it whenever you want me to. And I really do mean "miracle". It's like that story about the five loaves and two fishes or whatever, stretching the goodies to go round. Not that I'm likening BBC3 to crumbs or anything like that.

Anyway, I appreciate that it's not all plain sailing on the BBC3 comedy front. For every "Little Britain" there's, well, the rest of your schedule. From "3 Non Blondes" to "Tittybangbang" to "Little Miss Jocelyn" to just about everything else, it's been an unremitting diet of rubbish. But I'm sure they were all Stuart Murphy's fault.

So you can imagine how pleased I was to stumble across your new comedy, "Torchwood". For some reason, your trailers and publicity tried to promote this as some kind of edgy science-fiction series for adults when it's clearly a comedy. Every week I enjoy the cheesy dialogue, dimwitted characters and hilarious situations. My nurse only lets me watch one programme a week, but even so, I'm sure this is the best show on the box.

However, there's just one fault with it that I fear will stop it achieving comedy greatness: there's no laughter track. Look at "Little Britain" and I'm sure you'll agree it's much better when there's loads of canned laughter telling me where the funny bits are. I'm sure that "Torchwood" will be renewed (don't listen to Charlie Brooker or anyone else slagging it off) and just like "Little Britain" I hope that you turn up the canned laughter on its second season. And just like "Little Britain" I expect you'll be repeating "Torchwood" until the tapes wear out.

Keep up the good work

Yours sincerely."

Now, it all gets nasty. "Jason" sets up a "SaveWho petition"

http://www.petitiononline.com/SAVEWHO/

(oh, god, that worked out so well last time). The folks on Roobarbs turn out en masse and troll it in the hopes of getting it stopped. It's all a bit of a joke to them, until the loonies come out and start

1. reacting badly to the initial trolling
2. descending to personal swipes
3. "Jason" emerges, looks at his precious petition, declares "You won't stop me. I'm not kidding. I'm taking this further" and declares his stated intention to phone up everyone in a position of power at the BBC, from Grade downwards and *demand* accountability.

Certain types at Roobarbs now begin behaving in a reprehensible manner and start hitting back at the petition comments, and the whole thing descends into mindnumbing nastiness. Personal attacks, threats... I don't doubt but that the petition's disappeared by now.

I can't even begin to describe how depressing this is. It's all over something that no-one's even confirmed, is way off in the future anyway, and may not even happen. People change their minds, change their jobs. Jane Tranter may think completely differently about it in a couple of years time. One of the big four may stick around. Who knows?

I'm going to sit back and enjoy the next season (and hopefully the one after that). Time enough to panic in a couple of years time. If indeed, panic is appropriate. Surprise at getting more than I ever expected seems more appropriate (even if I had major problems with year two, I'd rather have had it than it disappearing after Eccles disappeared).

As it is, I blame Ian for starting all this. Although I think even he's surprised at the chaos he's caused this time.

[The Duck Man]

What's Roobarbs when it's at home?

[Bert Thung]

That isn't totally fair, I'm going to stand up for Ian.  Ian said what he'd heard from four different sources high up in fandom, and that at the bottom of his post says:

If anyone posts this on Outpost Gallifrey, please keep my name out of it. I didn't create this nasty piece of news and I don't particularly want crediting with it at all, for obvious reasons."

So Robert Mammone, an Australian fan with a self-confessed dislike against Ian posts a shit-stirring anti-Levine version of it on OG. Fans go into meltdown.  Another anti-Levinite 'The Magic Wanderer' goes on Levine's forum,  threatens to beat him up and calls him 'special needs'.  After about a week of this 'Robert Mammone' concedes:

"My one regret is not reading to the bottom of Ian's second, longer missive and heeding is request to delete his name."

IL isn't responsible for the nutcase reaction to this news, a lot of fans react to any kind of news like that, especially when its a golden opportunity to attack Ian Levine. He's responsible for that reaction in the same way that Jodie Foster is responsible for John Hinkley attempting to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

Trouble with news like this is if Ian did keep quiet and it turned out to be true he would have been attacked for complacency and withholding it. Remember when he was widely derided in 1985 for saying the following seasons episode count would be cut in half, which turned out to be true.

A poster on OG named 'Dobey Kweeg' wrote a pretty decent post about Levine-baiting a few months back

I dunno - I'm only aware of Ian Levine from following his thread here and the general snippets you pick up over the years. He seesm to be a guy who did a huge amount to preserve Who, but has annoyed many over the years by (as far as i can tell) being opinionated and bloody minded when it comes to his obsession with Who.

As such, he appears to have become something of a whipping boy - a dinosaur "super fan" that the punky "new adventures" crowd mock as the "Yes" of the Who World. It all seems very small minded and against the spirit of Who to my mind.

Even done in jest, the joke is "Levine, you are now a second class fanboy - get back in your place", which seems very mean spirited, even if this might ahve been an attitude that old super fans like Levine bred in the first place. Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss...

To me, he's a bit of a character, you can laugh at his excesses, but they never strike me as particularly malicious - a skewed perspective on whats important maybe, but then, without that perspective, there'd be a darn sight fewer episodes knocking around, so i for one cut him a bit of slack. Heaven forbid that someone loves something a little too much..."

[benthalo]

If you really want to know how depressing fandom can be, read on. If not, feel free to skip to the next message.

To be honest, I heard the story weeks ago and had no reason to doubt its veracity.  The only reason I kept shtum was because this is exactly what I thought would happen.  I also didn't want to play into BBC Wales' "trebles all round" viral PR.

[My Giddy Aunt]

Hmmm. I am a little bit surprised they're doing s4 with the current team really. It must be the most huge commitment in your life given the effort, pressure and hours involved.

It would be a huge shame if it didnt continue afterwards though, surely a 12 months break and new direction could be good. Alternatively it would be nice to have a little continuity in the teams if it were to continue - however it sounds like they are such good friends the general attitude is "I couldnt possibly do it without you" which i guess is fair enough if you're them.

As for Levine, he seems like a bit of a twat but as said up there he doesnt seem malicious just misguided most of the time. Although he did put that disclaimer on that bit of info I guess its just the "i've got some news but i wont tell just yet" approach that makes him seem like a self-aggrandising tosspot.

It would be fun if he made another Who protest record though wouldn't it?

[difbrook]

aye, no-one's covering themselves in glory over this, not least me - letting my general distaste for Ian's pronouncements get in the way of being objective. Good defence, Bert.

I do fully accept that I'm not objective where he's concerned - in my defence it pretty much stems back to the DWB days where he turned John Nathan-Turner bashing into an artform. I've never really been able to get past that.

I do agree that without him we wouldn't have anywhere near as much of the old series to enjoy as we do, so fair play to him, and he just happened to be the first person to bring this particular story to the forums - it's been fairly widespread for a while, as benthalo says.

all of the hysteria over this has left me feeling profoundly annoyed though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's another break in production after the current team head off, but the return of the series in the first place pretty much cements my belief that it'll resurface in one form or another. So I do find myself irritated that people are resorting to demanding accountability from the high-ups at the BBC. Not that their communications will even reach those people. I suspect.

Oh, to answer The Duck Man's question, Roobarb's is a primarily dvd-discussion based forum, which features a sub-forum dedicated to Whostuff. It currently sports a subtitle - "A Carnival of Moansters", owing to the avalanche of ill-tempered debate the last couple of series has tended to provoke. It's now heavily moderated and any personal attacks and name calling are stamped on extremely quickly after some distasteful incidents (almost all of which I seem to have missed).

[Bert Thung]

What a bizzare idea that only RTD can make a show work that ran for 26 years without him!

I think a lot of us wouldn't mind a Casino Royale style makeover come season 5, lets put it that way.

[The Duck Man]

Oh David, say it aint so!

Doctor Who star David Tennant is reportedly to follow in Billie Piper's footsteps by hosting The Friday Night Project.

According to The Sun, the Scottish actor will be the guest presenter on the first programme of the Channel 4 entertainment show's new series, alongside regular hosts Alan Carr and Justin Lee Collins. An insider told the paper: "It's a coup - he's hot property at the moment."

[variant]

An insider told the paper: "It's a coup - he's hot property at the moment."

Anyone else's blood pressure raise when you see that sort of shit written in a tabloid? Makes me want to start stabbing eyes and punching throats.

Anyway...carry on...

[Ray Le Otter]

More casting news as Jessica Stevenson is making an appearance in the series...

[My Giddy Aunt]

I mean, I was convinced that "The Girl in the Fireplace" was the best episode of Who ever after my initial viewing. I've calmed down a bit now, but it was a hell of a feeling.

How much have you calmed down out of interest?
I only ask because i just rewatched it (well, plus commentary) and still think its absolutely beautiful. I wouldnt even begin to try and do a 'best ever' type thing but it is right up there in terms of characterisation, script and style of the execution. It stretches what can be done with the Doctors character in a way that an adult viewer like me would like more of (but i freely admit cant be done given the audience).

[difbrook]

How much have you calmed down out of interest?
I only ask because i just rewatched it (well, plus commentary) and still think its absolutely beautiful. I wouldnt even begin to try and do a 'best ever' type thing but it is right up there in terms of characterisation, script and style of the execution. It stretches what can be done with the Doctors character in a way that an adult viewer like me would like more of (but i freely admit cant be done given the audience).

oh, I haven't calmed down *that* much. It's still gorgeous, and I still love it. But best *ever* episode? Perhaps not. There's a fair amount of competition for that one...

[Ghost of Troubled Joe]

I quite liked "The Girl in the Fireplace" but I have to say my favourite of Series 2 was definitely "Tooth and Claw". It was like all the best Troughton base-under-siege stories, and all the best Hinchcliffe/Holmes Gothic horrors all rolled into one rocket-propelled 45-minuter. I still think it's the best overall episode of the new series, mainly because it goes for more overt horror than most. Tennant was awesome in this as well: his delivery of "Oh, that's beautiful!" when he sees the werewolf for the first time is a sublime Doctor moment. The pacing is better too I think- just enough story to fill the 45 minutes quite comfortably ("The Idiot's Lantern" and "School Reunion", for example, had way too much story for 45 minutes). Speaking of which...

My one problem with "Fireplace" is that the Doctor and Reinette aren't given enough screen time together, really. They're never together long enough for me to believe that they might fall in love. They're snogging by the third time they meet, for instance (and only the second time face-to-face, and only the first time since Reinette was a child!!). Should've been a two-parter grumble grumble.

[Darrell]

Just heard the two Neil Hannon tracks from the soundtrack - Love Don't Roam is fantastic and wouldn't be out of place on 'Who Is Dr Who?' amongst the Toveys and Hines.

It's the new three-minute 'Suspicious Minds'-esque version of Song For Ten that steals the show however - it's breathtaking. Really should be a single.

[TotalNightmare]

im being slow but...

what soundtrack to what?

[mothman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/news/cult/news/drwho/2006/11/06/37664.shtml

[mothman]

dp

[Catalogue Trousers]

The BBC! wrote:

the much-requested by a load of spotty Desmonds who'd buy anything that Murray Gold has so much as farted over Doomsday - the song that played during Rose's trip to Bad Wolf Bay

Truth in advertising. "Much-requested", my cybernetic arse!

(Although Neil doing "Song For Ten" does sound rather groovy.)

[difbrook]

odd thing about Murray Gold's stuff. I've found it far too intrusive and invasive on the series itself. But listened to on its own, it's really rather splendid. I still think the best music the series has given us since it came back is actually from the opening sequence of "Rose" - that groovy little bit that runs from the point she thumps the alarm clock.

I've been listening to this album a lot over the last day or so. The aforementioned Doomsday track is merely okay, "Song For Ten" is good, but "Love Don't Roam" is absolutely *fantastic*... god bless Neil Hannon, merely for existing.

So I'm a sort of spotty Desmond.

[Sheldon Finklestein]

I really don't understand all the Murray Gold hate around. I think he's utterly fantastic. He's produced so many memorable and moving pieces for the show, that feel completely in keeping with the spirit of Doctor Who. I mean, doesn't his Dalek music just capture the essence of the things? And that piece from the start of Rose is great, although I do think that it is better outside of the show.

One thing though, isn't the DO-DO-DO-DO bit from the music at the start of Rose EXACTLY the same as the new Cyberman theme, except the latter has a couple more notes?

[Bert Thung]

I love Murray Gold's music too, though I'm really pissed off that The Reapers music from Fathers Day is missing off the new soundtrack.

[Catalogue Trousers]

difbrook wrote:

So I'm a sort of spotty Desmond.

difbrook, sir, you are far too fine a fellow to ever be a full spotty Desmond! Although I do suspect that all fans of Who, Old and/or New, are spotty Desmonds to some degree at least. I know that I am. But, thank feck, there's only one Bloo Strype, and neither of us are he.

As for Murray's music - I'm unsure. The "Rose" intro music is good stuff, but far too melodramatic for the scene that it goes with - saving it for the real extra-terrestrial barney stuff later might have been wiser. The choral Dalek stuff is also rather undeniably fab 'n' groovy, and "Song For Ten" - despite the awful "it's all about people fancying the Doc" sub-text - is a fine piece of music, especially in the instrumental version that closes "School Reunion".

I just wonder if Murray is going to acquire the same sort of (unfair) regard that a lot of people have for Deadly Dudley Simpson. He also produced a huge amount of genuinely great music for the show, but his near-ubiquity did make (a) his rubbish stuff all the more noticable (which also affects Murray) and (b) the unfortunate Mr Simpson himself the target for a lot of rather undeserved flak.

[Bert Thung]

odd thing about Murray Gold's stuff. I've found it far too intrusive and invasive on the series itself. But listened to on its own, it's really rather splendid.

I feel the same about Peter Howell's theme tune. Fine piece of music on its own, but no use as a theme tune. Especially as your following the Derbyshire version where you can't tell what instruments are being played, making it sound like it could be recorded by aliens. Playing about with a moog just isn't the same.

[difbrook]

I feel the same about Peter Howell's theme tune. Fine piece of music on its own, but no use as a theme tune. Especially as your following the Derbyshire version where you can't tell what instruments are being played, making it sound like it could be recorded by aliens. Playing about with a moog just isn't the same.

and I feel exactly the same about Dominic Glynn's version of the theme, funnily enough! If they'd redone the titles at the same time, it would probably have worked as it's a nicely different version of the theme. On the show itself, it all seems half arsed.

And Catalogue Trousers, thank you for the compliment! Every morning I wake up and thank god for the fact that I'm not Bloo Strype. His ghost hangs heavy everytime I feel my fanboy tendencies getting the better of me...

[Sheldon Finklestein]

If you check out the BBC page, they're running an advent calendar. Look at 12 and you'll find a new trailer for The Runaway Bride, which is pretty cool. However, I can't for the life of me make out the last word the female alien voice at the end says. An offers?