Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 04:40:46 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Richard Littlejohn charms the world again

Started by 23 Daves, December 20, 2006, 02:19:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Hank_Kingsley

Indeed, I was against the war in Iraq but i'm pro-Israel & don't think much of Socialism. I don't really agree with anything that leads to in an increase in militarism & government spending though.
I'd be quite happy to see the Army scaled back to the point it resembled a slightly beefier TA & leave it at that.


CaledonianGonzo

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on July 10, 2007, 04:14:21 PM
I'm a socialist, I was on that demo and I'm not anti-Semitic in the slightest. Entirely predictably, Littlejohn followed the Zionist party line which is any attack on Israel, their widespread killing of Palestinians and the hundreds of UN resolutions they've broken is an attack on the Jewish faith. I'm not saying the Palestinians are whiter-than-white, but considering on one side is the billions of dollars of US military aid, and on the other are the Palestinians (and Hezbollah, in Lebanon) who have pretty much nothing, all their money controlled by Israel, then it's not difficult for me to decide which side I'm on.

Didn't see this, but what did the ADL have to say?  They've been going on about the new Anti-Semtism for years.  Their (and other pro-Israel organisation)'s contention that anti-Zionism equates to anti-Semitism is just plain daft, and they seemed to be saying the same old thing in the press ad they took out to criticise the NUJ.  They seem to think that all of Israel's critics are anti-Semitic, which seems a particularly muddle-headed position to argue from.

Mr. Analytical

I think that ranting about "Zionism" is generally a pretty good indicator that someone is anti-semitic or, at best, influenced by anti-semitic thought.  It's like people who say "...it's political correctness gone mad" or "some of my best friends are black/gay/asian/whatever".

Zionism is a 19th century political movement devoted to the creation of a Jewish state.

Nowadays there are so many "pro-Israeli" political positions (most notably all Israeli political parties) that "Zionism" is effectively meaningless as a description of an actual political position.

Still Not George

Quote from: Mr. Analytical on July 10, 2007, 06:10:59 PMNowadays there are so many "pro-Israeli" political positions (most notably all Israeli political parties) that "Zionism" is effectively meaningless as a description of an actual political position.
Bollocks. The post-1948 meaning of Zionism is fairly clear to most people, not least the OED:

QuoteA movement among modern Jews having for its object the assured settlement of their race upon a national basis in Palestine; after 1948, concerned chiefly with the development of the State of Israel (see ISRAEL 3).

or, to put it another way, the same bloody thing as "pro-Israeli". You can be against the policies and actions of Israel without being anti-Semitic, and you know it.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Can I have a..two-state solution with cheese please? And a side order of peace. Yep. Ermm, no veg though. I'm not in the mood.

Still Not George

Sorry, some carefully-mistranslated document from umpteen years ago states that the cheese is historically mine, so you can't have it. And to make sure you don't make any trouble, I'm going to spend some of the money the restauranteur's given me to wall you into the corner with your table.

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: Nyarrrrrrrrrlathotep on July 10, 2007, 06:25:21 PM
or, to put it another way, the same bloody thing as "pro-Israeli". You can be against the policies and actions of Israel without being anti-Semitic, and you know it.

  But by your own quotage "Zionism" means no more than believing that Israel has a right to exist.  Zionism doesn't entail anything about whether the Palestinians should have their own state and it says nothing about the non-Israeli lands that are considered part of the "Jewish homeland".  There are miriad positions within the camp broadly defined as "Zionist"... that was my point.

  In truth, being anti-Zionist does not mean anti-Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.  It means being anti-Israeli in the sense that you think that the Israeli state should be dismantled and the middle East should be returned to the way it was before 1947.

  You can criticise Israeli foreign policy and their treatment of the Palestnians and not be anti-Semitic but at this point, arguing for the dissolution of the Israeli state puts very little blue water between you and most anti-Semites.

  So I think it's not unreasonable to see someone ranting about Zionism as an anti-Semite.

  EDIT : In fact, I'll go one stronger and argue that while anti-semitism and anti-zionism are not the same belief, people that hold the latter view and more than likely to hold the former.

 

Still Not George

#127
Quote from: Mr. Analytical on July 10, 2007, 07:26:03 PMBut by your own quotage "Zionism" means no more than believing that Israel has a right to exist.  Zionism doesn't entail anything about whether the Palestinians should have their own state and it says nothing about the non-Israeli lands that are considered part of the "Jewish homeland".  There are miriad positions within the camp broadly defined as "Zionist"... that was my point.
No, your point was that anit-Zionism was meaningless as Zionism as a term was fundamentally meaningless, which it isn't, is it? You don't get to change your position as soon as you're proven wrong, unless you're willing to admit that you were wrong.

QuoteIn truth, being anti-Zionist does not mean anti-Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.  It means being anti-Israeli in the sense that you think that the Israeli state should be dismantled and the middle East should be returned to the way it was before 1947.
No, it means being against Zionist policies - ie, pro-Israeli policies. Since being pro-Israeli inside Israel would be a bit of a tautology, it would fairly obviously refer to pro-Israeli policies outside of Israel - eg, in the US, where the pro-Israeli lobby have considerable and rather obvious influence. Thus anti-Zionism would refer to a rejection of Zionist influences on the rest of the world.

QuoteYou can criticise Israeli foreign policy and their treatment of the Palestnians and not be anti-Semitic but at this point, arguing for the dissolution of the Israeli state puts very little blue water between you and most anti-Semites.
True, but using the same logic I could call your mother a whore and then say that this proves that you have AIDS. If you come up with a proposition and then immediately begin characterising your opponent based upon that proposition, then you're simply making shit up about them.

QuoteSo I think it's not unreasonable to see someone ranting about Zionism as an anti-Semite.

  EDIT : In fact, I'll go one stronger and argue that while anti-semitism and anti-zionism are not the same belief, people that hold the latter view and more than likely to hold the former.

That is precisely the same as arguing that all Christians are fundamentalists (or all Muslims, for that matter, which your friend Borboski believes anyway). If Set A is a subset of Set B, what precise proportion of Set B are in Set A? The answer is pretty much fucking anything because that information is not sufficient to base a fucking opinion on.

Clone Army

Quote from: Nyarrrrrrrrrlathotep on July 10, 2007, 07:54:56 PM
If Set A is a subset of Set B, what precise proportion of Set A are in Set B? The answer is...

Maths pedant: All of them.

Still Not George

Gah, sorry, incredibly poorly timed typo. I'm working late, it's affecting my brain.

chand

Good to see that after being sooooo outraged by Ken's culturally offensive outburst, cuddly old Richard is continuing his commit to touchy-feely racial sensitivity in his column today:

Quote from: Richard LittlejohnI wasn't surprised to see Sting topping the bill this weekend. He's got plenty of previous. Remember that picture of him sitting next to an Amazon tribesman who appeared to have a CD in his mouth?

Ah, Richard, I literally couldn't make it up. On another note:

Quote from: LittlejohnGordon Brown, last seen handing over £8 billion of our money to Africa just so he could have his picture taken with Nelson Mandela, has grudgingly allocated a paltry £14 million to flood relief here

Because African poverty and Britsh flooding are exactly the same.

Santa's Boyfriend

Zionism has more than one meaning these days, it's certainly true - but what is largely recognised as Zionism these days, largely means the establishment of an Israeli homeland AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE.  In other words, what we know now of as Palestine being wiped off the map and replaced with the state of Israel.  Many of the more hardline Jews believe that this is not only desirable, it is necessary, due to the belief that it is not possible for the Messiah to be born until the Jews have reclaimed the whole of what they believe to be their land by divine providence.

If you think that is the same as Israel's right to exist, you're plain wrong.  A two state solution is the only possible option for peace, led by moderates on both sides.  Zionism in the sense outlined above is directly antagonistic towards the islamic world - and it is this that is generally referred to as Zionism.  There are obviously people (not to mention a lot of Palestinians) who believe that Israel has no right to exist, but I'm not one of them - nor am I antisemitic in any way.  I am anti-Zionist, however.

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: Santa's Boyfriend on July 10, 2007, 09:49:09 PM
Zionism has more than one meaning these days, it's certainly true - but what is largely recognised as Zionism these days, largely means the establishment of an Israeli homeland AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE.  In other words, what we know now of as Palestine being wiped off the map and replaced with the state of Israel.  Many of the more hardline Jews believe that this is not only desirable, it is necessary, due to the belief that it is not possible for the Messiah to be born until the Jews have reclaimed the whole of what they believe to be their land by divine providence.

  Actually, I don't think that's true at all.  Even right-wing Israeli Jews know that this will never happen as if Israel keeps its current borders it'll be mostly populated with Arabs within a couple of generations.  This is why Sharon handed back occupied territories, he knew that he couldn't keep them and he preferred to trade them in for political capital.  At this point, the only way there'll ever be a Greater Israel is if the Jews start gassing Palestinians and even the orthodox black-hats don't argue for that... in fact, a chunk of the extreme right argues for the disestablishment of the state of Israel on religious grounds.  In fact, the only people who DO systematically argue for a Greater Israel are fundamentalist Christians who think that a Greater Israel will see the Temple re-built and hence to End of Days.  No mainstream Israeli political party has a platform of striving for a Greater Israel.


  Zionism at this point means that you support the continued existence of Israel.  There are myriad views within this belief, in fact there are so many that "Zionism" doesn't really differentiate between any real political positions... most political attitudes towards Israel are Zionist.  The only people who are anti-Zionist are the people that want the disestablishment of the Jewish state.

  Anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism but there's a direct corrolation between being an anti-Zionist and having anti-semitic beliefs.  There was even a peer-reviewed journal paper that suggested much the same thing.  If you identify as an anti-Zionist then chances are that you don't like Jews.  They're not the same set of beliefs but they're directly corrolated.

4 arses

Anti-Semitism gets brought up whenever the actions of the Israeli government are criticised. It's semantic fudging generally by right wing commentators to avoid any issues they don't want to deal with, see Douglas Murray on Question time trying to link all criticism of Israel to supporting the killing of Jews. It's the same as people claiming there's a spread of Anti Americanism in Europe, whereas there's actually and Anti American Government feeling in Europe as there now is in America. Unfortunately media debates don't allow such a relatively nuanced view in when one side is putting their fingers in their ears and saying "You hate the jews, you hate the jews!".

Any sensible person wouldn't equate what an Israeli prime minister does as representing every Jewish person any more than they'd equate Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair representing every British person. Also anyone on the left siding with people wanting to wipe out Israel is fooling themselves that they were ever on the left unless you're following the political compass in which case they're far closer to Stalin than whoever they'd imagine they were following

Anyone who makes broad sweeping statements about anyone of colour, race, or religion is a cunt and more likely to read The Sun or The Daily Mail than the Guardian, or at least I hope so.

It just seems to be Littlejohn's attempt to have another left bashing session, well done to him for getting his face out there again.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Mr. Analytical on July 10, 2007, 10:55:53 PM
  Anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism but there's a direct corrolation between being an anti-Zionist and having anti-semitic beliefs.  There was even a peer-reviewed journal paper that suggested much the same thing.  If you identify as an anti-Zionist then chances are that you don't like Jews.  They're not the same set of beliefs but they're directly corrolated.
There's only a direct correlation in the same sense that every meths-drinking alcoholic started out with half a bitter...therefore everyone who's ever drank half a bitter is an alcoholic.

Zionism refers to a specific set of political views, held by the leaders of the Jewish state since its inception (and before). The original leaders of Israel (David Ben Gurion for one, and there were others) were atheists anyway, so how on earth is it possible to be anti-Semitic towards them?

Borboski

Quote from: Santa's Boyfriend on July 10, 2007, 09:49:09 PM
Zionism has more than one meaning these days, it's certainly true - but what is largely recognised as Zionism these days, largely means the establishment of an Israeli homeland AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE.  In other words, what we know now of as Palestine being wiped off the map and replaced with the state of Israel.  Many of the more hardline Jews believe that this is not only desirable, it is necessary, due to the belief that it is not possible for the Messiah to be born until the Jews have reclaimed the whole of what they believe to be their land by divine providence.

Like Analytical I have problems with that statement.  Quite recently I linked on here to something very naughty that Chomsky had done - claimed the Israeli PM out of context in talking to congress, claiming he'd stated that they had a god-given right to Israel.  In the very next sentence he did exactly the opposite of what you claim, which Chomsky chose to omit.

Still Not George

Quote from: 4 arses on July 10, 2007, 11:51:11 PM
Anti-Semitism gets brought up whenever the actions of the Israeli government are criticised. It's semantic fudging generally by right wing commentators to avoid any issues they don't want to deal with, see Douglas Murray on Question time trying to link all criticism of Israel to supporting the killing of Jews. It's the same as people claiming there's a spread of Anti Americanism in Europe, whereas there's actually and Anti American Government feeling in Europe as there now is in America. Unfortunately media debates don't allow such a relatively nuanced view in when one side is putting their fingers in their ears and saying "You hate the jews, you hate the jews!".
Or, indeed, forum debates. Well said.

Al Tha Funkee Homosapien

Well quite, being an Anti-Zionist doesn't mean you're an Anti-Semite...unless you are an Anti-Semite. The president of Iran may talk about being an Anti-Zionist, but I'm pretty sure he's an Anti-Semite as well. But talking about an Anti-Zionist is pretty irrelevant now. The state of Israel exists, it's not going away as much as Hamas would like it to. The creation of Israel isn't some new thing in the creation of states, the replacing of natives with outsiders, it's happened in the creation of pretty much every country.

I don't think any mainstream politician in either Israel or the occupied territories realistically, as much as they may like it, thinks that anything other than a two-state solution is acceptable.

Still Not George

Quote from: Al Tha Funkee Homosapien on July 11, 2007, 11:34:27 AMI don't think any mainstream politician in either Israel or the occupied territories realistically, as much as they may like it, thinks that anything other than a two-state solution is acceptable.
The occupied territories perhaps. I suspect you'd find most Israeli politicians are quite happy to pretend the current state of affairs can be maintained forever.

Santa's Boyfriend

My understanding of what Zionism has come to mean largely comes from a talk by Alan Hart that I attended, when he was plugging his new book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zionism-Real-Enemy-Jews-v/dp/0955020700

QuoteActually, I don't think that's true at all.  Even right-wing Israeli Jews know that this will never happen as if Israel keeps its current borders it'll be mostly populated with Arabs within a couple of generations.

I'm not sure what you mean there.

Anyway, I've seen many programmes interviewing hardline Jewish settlers in the West Bank, talking about how this is their land according to God, and that the Palestinians have no business being there.  Do you also remember the extraordinary scenes when Jews were forcibly evacuated from Gaza?  Many refused to go on the simple basis of it being their home, I'm sure - but there was certainly a strong feeling amongst many settlers that this was against the wishes of God.

I have no doubt that there is a wealth of opinion in Israel regarding the Palestinian state, but there are certainly a lot of people who believe there should not be a Palestinian state at all.

Hank_Kingsley

There are Anti-Zionist Jews you numpties, you know the ones who think Israel is illegitimate because the messiah hasn't turned up yet.
They're a small minority but to say there is a direct correlation between anti-zionism & anti-semitism is pretty fucking stupid to put it bluntly.

Anyway, I don't think the leftwingers who, indirectly or otherwise, support the bus bombers  are themselves motivated by old fashioned Jew hatred but they're just suffering the obfuscating effects of their misguided ideology. Bless 'em, they think they're sticking up for the underdog and that their endless bleating about the 'irony' of the Israelis acting like Nazis is going to win them some sort of fucking medal.

Of course, when you've got Harold Pinter and Banksy on your side whose going to listen to the opposition?

Santa's Boyfriend

Quote from: Hank_Kingsley on July 11, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
Anyway, I don't think the leftwingers who, indirectly or otherwise, support the bus bombers

Er...

Uncle TechTip

It was only 60 years ago, the creation of Israel and the creation of other states hundreds of years ago isn't a wholly fair comparison.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Hank_Kingsley on July 11, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
Anyway, I don't think the leftwingers who, indirectly or otherwise, support the bus bombers  are themselves motivated by old fashioned Jew hatred but they're just suffering the obfuscating effects of their misguided ideology. Bless 'em, they think they're sticking up for the underdog and that their endless bleating about the 'irony' of the Israelis acting like Nazis is going to win them some sort of fucking medal.

Okay, in what sense is the argument of "the left" a misguided ideology? How is me saying I think Zionism is a poisonous political ideology in any sense misguided? I don't do it to win a fucking medal, I do it because I think it's right.

George Oscar Bluth II

Quote from: Santa's Boyfriend on July 11, 2007, 12:46:03 PM
Er...

Replace "indirectly or otherwise, support" with "make excuses for" and he's got a point. Sort of.

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: Al Tha Funkee Homosapien on July 11, 2007, 11:34:27 AM
I don't think any mainstream politician in either Israel or the occupied territories realistically, as much as they may like it, thinks that anything other than a two-state solution is acceptable.

  Absolutely.  Even George Bush acknowledges the fact that the Palestinians need their own gaff.  The issue is where you draw the lines on the map.  The only people who want the disestablishment of the state of Israel (anti-zionists) are ravening anti-semites and religious nutcases.

  The problem is that by virtue of the cross-pollination of ideas from the pro-Hamas and pro-Hezballah nutters in the broadly leftist "anti-war" movement you've got liberal westerners proclaiming themselves anti-Zionists because they think that Zionism is the political battle for a greater Israel.  Because they're not particularly politically aware and have picked up ideas in their attempts to root for the underdog they've stumbled into the term "anti-zionism" which doesn't mean being opposed to the political battle for a greater Israel (which is effectively dead anyway as Israelis simply don't breed quickly enough to fill a greater Israel) it means wanting to dismantle the Jewish pig-state and drive the Yiddish filth into the sea.

  People who identify as anti-Zionist are either bigots or they're members of the politically naive who think that the nice guys with beards who opposed the war in Iraq on the march probably don't have hideous beliefs of their own that they're trying to push into the mainstream.

Ciarán

Quote from: Clinton Morgan on July 10, 2007, 01:20:46 PM
Thought I'd bump this thread due to the programme last night called 'The War on Britain's Jews' which I admit I only saw about ten minutes of near the end. In terms of subject matter I'm glad that this is being brought to light. I've noticed quite a few people whisper "the Jews" in casual conversation and sometimes openingly decry "their whinging" about the holocaust when "they" kicked the Palestinians out of their homes "or something". Bit by bit there are people who are feeling it is okay to be anti-semitic. People will always look for an excuse to justify their bigotry. Think of A.I.D.S. and homophobia.

What annoys me is that criticism of zionism and of the occupation of Palestine gets dismissed as anti-semitism all too easily.

Still Not George

Quote from: Mr. Analytical on July 11, 2007, 01:15:45 PMThe problem is that by virtue of the cross-pollination of ideas from the pro-Hamas and pro-Hezballah nutters in the broadly leftist "anti-war" movement you've got liberal westerners proclaiming themselves anti-Zionists because they think that Zionism is the political battle for a greater Israel.  Because they're not particularly politically aware and have picked up ideas in their attempts to root for the underdog they've stumbled into the term "anti-zionism" which doesn't mean being opposed to the political battle for a greater Israel (which is effectively dead anyway as Israelis simply don't breed quickly enough to fill a greater Israel) it means wanting to dismantle the Jewish pig-state and drive the Yiddish filth into the sea.
Except it fucking doesn't, does it you tard? Saying "x=y" 400 times doesn't actually make x equal y.

Ciarán

#148
Quote from: Mr. Analytical on July 10, 2007, 06:10:59 PM
I think that ranting about "Zionism" is generally a pretty good indicator that someone is anti-semitic or, at best, influenced by anti-semitic thought.

How so? Is it right or just that land which has millions of people of different ethnic backgrounds living on it should be divided up and made into a Jewish state? Is it right or fair that when Israel finally was established it was done so through the deployment of the same kind of terrorist tactics which Israel condemns its enemies for using? Is it fair or just that Israel should be funded and backed to the hilt by the richest countries in the West, irrespective of the needs and rights of the displaced peoples?

QuoteIt's like people who say "...it's political correctness gone mad" or "some of my best friends are black/gay/asian/whatever".

I don't really see the similarity.

QuoteZionism is a 19th century political movement devoted to the creation of a Jewish state.

Yes, and it needs to be criticised because it is unjust.

QuoteNowadays there are so many "pro-Israeli" political positions (most notably all Israeli political parties) that "Zionism" is effectively meaningless as a description of an actual political position.

Of course the whole issue in the area is to do with division, segregation, displacement, and notions of divine right. As long as the people of Israel believe that they have a divine right to occupy the land they do, and as long as their neighbours continue to be controlled by the Israeli state and its friends, there will be war in the area.

Clinton Morgan

Re: Ciaran's comment. Of course. If I came across like that in my initial post then I do apologise. I can only say that what I wrote was in a rush as my fifteen minutes in the local library was nearly up and I had to rush back to work. My intention is not to equate criticism of Zionism or the occupation of Palestine with anti-semitism but a comment on how certain bigots would latch onto certain things in order to justify their bigotry. The hiding-behind-other-people's-arguments-instead-of-working-out-your-own form of practice which is common amongst quite a few armchair politicians. An anti-semite could possibly say something about Palestine but in all fairness he or she most likely does not give a damn and is looking for an excuse to justify their bigotry.

In Richard Littlejohn's case was he making a programme to highlight anti-semitism in modern Britain or was the whole thing mainly about him having a bee in his bonnet about "the left" and their criticism of his writing? In any case didn't he about ten years ago attack the left for their use of words like "racism" making it hard for people like him to argue their case. When he uses the term "asylum seeker" as a negative isn't that the same way that anti-semites use the word "Jew" as a negative?

Here is a quote from Charlie Brooker in http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2074135,00.html about his recent book

QuoteLittlejohn is pictured standing astride the United Kingdom, like a colossus (or, more accurately, like Fred Talbot, the weatherman who used to do the forecasts on This Morning). Surrounding him are three things presumably intended to sum up the very worst of "modern Britain": a speed camera, a recycling bin, and the London Eye - a triumvirate so utterly despicable, Littlejohn can't even muster the will to shake a fist in their direction. Instead he merely shrugs with exasperation: his arms are outstretched, palms up, and he stares down the lens, bemused, as though saying, "Cuh! Speed cameras, eh? It's basic concern for human safety gone mad! Recycling bins? Typical! And if that bloody ferris wheel doesn't sum up Blair's Britain, I don't know what does. You couldn't make it up!"

Weirdly, they've chosen not to include any of Littlejohn's other bugbears on the cover: there are no gays or asylum seekers here. Unless, perhaps, they're crushed beneath Littlejohn's feet.

What was it that Jesus said? Something to do with pointing out how the other person has sawdust in their eye whilst you have a plank of wood sticking into your own? Whatever it was it certainly applies well to Mr. Littlejohn.