Bands that got worse or better after the introduction or departing of a band member.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

Underworld got better when Darren Emerson joined.

[trotsky assortment]

Not seen it mentioned, but Faith No More after Jim Martin left.

arrghh, not having a great day today. They got worse.

While I found that applied to 'King For A Day', 'Album of the Year' remains my second favourite FNM album after 'Angel Dust'.

[trotsky assortment]

I suppose both of them are reforming without the main person though which is a bit different.

I read the other day that The Cars have been toring and recording without Ric Ocasek and Benjamin Orr.  Recording without your two main songwriters and vocalists?  Stupid.

Still, Ben is excused for not being there on account of his being dead.  As for Ocasek, he's probably off making a fat pile of cash by producing another Weezer album.

[Labian Quest]

PP: I agree with what you say to an extent and I don't think Berry leaving was the only contributing factor, but it was a biggish one, another thing I read was that at some point around then they started making a very conscious effort to make albums that didn't 'sound like an REM record' which sounds like a good idea on paper but doesn't seem to have worked out that well for them.

[trotsky assortment]

I didn't think it at the time, but I feel subsequently that Marillion improved and improved after Fish left.

Fuck yes.  They've produced all of their best work without the Scotsman/bad actor/average vocalist/stuck in the 80s solo artiste.  Steve Hogarth joining was a change for the better.

[Hot Towel]

Suede definitely got worse after Bernard Butler left. Watching their slow decline was quite painful (although 'Coming Up' wasn't bad).

Definately, 'Coming Up' was pretty good but not the follow-up to 'Dog Man Star' you would have hoped for.. The last 'Suede' album was so forgettable, I've forgotten the name of it.. 'New Dawn' or something - can't be bothered looking for it now.

Did anyway one like 'The Tears' album? Anderson and Butler re-unite..

[trotsky assortment]

I quite liked The Tears album, yes.

I've always found huge chunks of 'Dogmanstar' to be drab and over-rated. The b-sides from those sessions were better than a lot of the album stuff.

Bits of 'Coming Up' were great.
That last album was called 'A New Morning'...  'Positivity' was a brilliant single, but by then Suede has run out of steam.

Personally, it's album four - 'Head Music' - I found to be the complete dud.

[Paaaaul]

Ramones worsened after Tommy left the drumstool.

[trotsky assortment]

Yes.  I'd say the eighties still had some decent moments though.  That said, Marky played drums on 'Road To Ruin' - that was still great.

[kaprisky]

REM are a perfect example of how important chemistry is - they were all competent musicians (though none of them were virtuosos) but they did all have a lot of musical intelligence - the psychic power you need in order to play as a band and if the records are anything to go by Bill was a very big part of that.

A case of a band being more than the sum of their parts? Yeah, there are a few bands that have had that thrust at them, New Order for one, Husker Du another, perhaps.

Back to the thread, I'll nominate XTC getting even better when Dave Gregory joined.

[23 Daves]

I've always found huge chunks of 'Dogmanstar' to be drab and over-rated. The b-sides from those sessions were better than a lot of the album stuff.

Not wishing to veer off-topic too much, but I have to say I completely agree with you.  It's quite clear that there was plenty of material "in the can" at the time of Dog Man Star that was of a high quality indeed, but there are some real dreary monotonous dirges on that CD.  "Daddy's Speeding" for one, a song which barely even had "B-side" written on it.

weekender asked me to start a thread about albums that would have been better with different track listings using the material the bands had available to them at the time.  This was ages ago.  I still haven't done it.  But if I was going to, "Dog Man Star" would have been right up there, along with (possibly) "This Is Hardcore" by Pulp, which could have done with shedding a few tracks here and there.  Both those albums are regarded as dark masterpieces that are beyond criticism now though, for some reason.

[Hot Towel]

I've always found huge chunks of 'Dogmanstar' to be drab and over-rated. The b-sides from those sessions were better than a lot of the album stuff.

Not wishing to veer off-topic too much, but I have to say I completely agree with you.  It's quite clear that there was plenty of material "in the can" at the time of Dog Man Star that was of a high quality indeed, but there are some real dreary monotonous dirges on that CD.  "Daddy's Speeding" for one, a song which barely even had "B-side" written on it.

weekender asked me to start a thread about albums that would have been better with different track listings using the material the bands had available to them at the time.  This was ages ago.  I still haven't done it.  But if I was going to, "Dog Man Star" would have been right up there, along with (possibly) "This Is Hardcore" by Pulp, which could have done with shedding a few tracks here and there.  Both those albums are regarded as dark masterpieces that are beyond criticism now though, for some reason.

That sounds like a good idea. I've always thought that 'Kid A' and 'Amnesiac' by Radiohead could have been shaved a little to make one incredible follow up to 'OK Computer' - possible track listing...

1: You and Whose Army
2: The National Anthem
3: Pyramid Song
4: Knives Out
5: Like Spinning Plates
6: Everything In Its Right Place
7: Dollars & Cents
8: Opitmitic
9: Idioteque
10: How to Disappear Completely
11: Life In a Glass House


hidden track : Motion Picture Soundtrack

or something

[Hot Towel]

sorry, my last post was completely off topic - try and ignore it and it might go away.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

I think you have a point though.

[phantom_power]

A case of a band being more than the sum of their parts?

i am not sure that is true in rem's case though as, in their prime, each of their parts was fucking great

[Cack Hen]

I've always found huge chunks of 'Dogmanstar' to be drab and over-rated. The b-sides from those sessions were better than a lot of the album stuff.

Not wishing to veer off-topic too much, but I have to say I completely agree with you.  It's quite clear that there was plenty of material "in the can" at the time of Dog Man Star that was of a high quality indeed, but there are some real dreary monotonous dirges on that CD.  "Daddy's Speeding" for one, a song which barely even had "B-side" written on it..

Yeah, Daddy's Speeding is a low-point, and Stay Together really should have been on there, but I can't knock it. Despite some of the bad tracklisting decisions, it does have an excellent feel to it, there's a very grand, epic mood that stays consistent throughout. Quite impressive when you consider Bernard left the band early in the sessions and left Brett to do it all himself with tapes of guitar parts put down my Bernard, and then Brett played guitar for the bits he didn't do (which is rumoured to be a fair chunk of the album).