Grand Theft Auto IV

[Little Hoover]

I'd agree, that it just wasn't very funny in the way the GTA games are, just seemed very dumbed down, and they don't talk anything like teenagers, and I guess they decided to tone down the language to lower the rating, but it's kind of not very beliveable that teenagers don't swear. (and it's ridiculous that violence is more acceptable than swearing, but that's not rockstars fault)
And it seemed like they couldn't decide whether they wanted to keep it very realistic, or just be completley over the top and cartoony. So it made for this uncomftable middle ground.

Also, it's annoying, not being able to roam around without gangs of different cliques, charging at you, to beat you up,

[samadriel]

I am a huge fan of the GTA games, Vice City was one of the first games I ever bothered to do the side-stuff on as well as the main completion of the game. The end mission, where I ran on the roof of my mansion and blew up the limo outside to stop the bad guys from respawning before running back inside to finish the job off, is as fun and cinematic as any film on a similar topic in years.

Fuck me! That's how it's done!  Christ's cockend, I was stuck on that for so long I just gave up and all the time it was that simple. *slaps forehead in disbelief*

My name is Terry Fuckwit and I claim my miniature ironing board.

I never did that, just shot my way down with the M16. I did it first time too. I did use the rocket launcher to kill Lance on the roof though.

Anyway, so am I right in thinking that us PC gamers are going to be denied this then? Just like Call of Duty 3. Fucking consoleheads I hate you all!

Amen.  But no, I'd imagine GTAIV will make it to PC; just significantly later than it will on the consoles, much like with San Andreas.

[Famous Mortimer]

The thing with Rockstar is there's a bunch of different production houses- it may not have been the GTA people who made "Canis Canem Edit". It was fun for a bit but got tired quickly, I think. A mere morsel of how good GTA IV will be/

[Mr. Analytical]

Agreed. I'm about half way through and am wondering if it's worth the effort to keep going? Anyone completed it?

 I actually did play it all the way to the end and I think it's a decent enough game.  If you've already shelled out the money for it then I think it's worth completing (and it's not that long) but I think, from a creative perspective, it could have been a much better game than it turned out to be.  It really is an example of a good idea and good technical components being let down by a bad and ill-thought-through script.

 It's not as bad as EA's Godfather though, that's just ludicrously poorly written.  It also suffers from that FPS problem of power-bloat.  "We'll just make our way into the depot... oh no... hostile homeless people... oh no... they've all got automatic weapons and are willing to fight fanatically to the death".  Bah.

 Canis Canem really isn't that bad a game.  It's just that I really wish they'd hire actual writers to work on scripts for games.  Especially seeing as the blokes who actually do that job don't need to do any techy stuff.

 Interesting interview here with one of the "writers" of Fable 2... from an RPG perspective admittedly :

http://feartheboot.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=187564#

[Little Hoover]

The thing with Rockstar is there's a bunch of different production houses- it may not have been the GTA people who made "Canis Canem Edit". It was fun for a bit but got tired quickly, I think. A mere morsel of how good GTA IV will be/

Yeah that was Rockstar Vancouver, it was their first game. San Andreas had a few more experinced houses doing it.

[bill hicks]

Rockstar Vancouver were the team behind Canis Canem Edit, Rockstar North (aka DMA Design) are the main developer in the Rockstar group (GTA, Manhunt).

Although having said that the main writer on CCE was Dan Houser, who is also the main man at North. It might have been a problem with transposing what was obviously supposed to be GTA: Grange Hill to the states for marketing purposes. The game was crying out to be set in an old fashioned English Public School.

[Mr. Analytical]

Although having said that the main writer on CCE was Dan Houser, who is also the main man at North. It might have been a problem with transposing what was obviously supposed to be GTA: Grange Hill to the states for marketing purposes. The game was crying out to be set in an old fashioned English Public School.

Mmmnnnyeh...

 Aside from being at a boarding school the vibe is pretty unambiguously US Highschool.  The presence of jocks and nerds and greasers is very American, as are the nearby towns.

 If the idea of a UK public school was influential then it would have been at an incredibly early stage as there's essentially no trace of it in the final game.

[Still Not George]

It's just that I really wish they'd hire actual writers to work on scripts for games.  Especially seeing as the blokes who actually do that job don't need to do any techy stuff.

Games are unfortunately still mired in their Designer Is GOD phase, so writing is invariably sacrificed to their egos. I don't know what it is about games designers that makes them so completely incapable of writing good dialogue.

Thing is, though, when professional writers *are* contracted out for games, they just churn out any old shit because it is, after all, "only a game".

[chumfatty]

Trailer for LA Noire might give an idea of what GTA IV will look like

http://www.rockstargames.com/lanoire/html/trailer.html

I hate Game Trailers that do not show actual in game footage, I guess this is just a Teaser to set up the tone of thegame, but I just cannot get excited at glorified cut scenes without some indication on how the game will play. It certainly isn't going to encourage me to part with cash on the basis of some pretty graphics.

[Little Hoover]

I find it odd how the written by credit is considerd so unimportant in games, and that proper story credits often don't seem to be plasterd all over it.
In Metal Gear Solid at least, we know Hideo Kojima (with one or two other people) is behind all the story and the dialouge. but in other games with genuinley great stories, like FFVII, Silent Hill 2, or Ico and Shadow of the Colossus I'm left wondering, "Why the hell isn't the person who wrote this brilliant story, that's better than a lot of films and whom's role is so crucial in my enjoyment of the game. getting the great big credit they deserve."

Well in those cases their japanes names, I wouldn't remember anyway, and it doesn't really matter, since it's not like I'm going to be able to keep my eye out for them, but it's still odd. I remember Fumito Ueda is behind Ico and SOTC, but I don't think he's the one behind the story exactly.

[sick as a pike]

I find it odd how the written by credit is considerd so unimportant in games...

My agent went to a seminar last week about writing for games.   It seems that the reason you don't see writers' credits is that most games company think of the writers as annoying necessities.  Paid a poor daily rate (i.e. no residuals) and just generally treated poorly.  I suppose that's for writers brought in, rather than writer/creators, but by the sound of it they don't get a great deal either.

Right, time for me to ask again- has anyone ever played or seen the game 'Arcatera'?  I did some voice work for it and am intrigued to know if it ever appeared.  I think I've seen that it was released in English, but I've never actually seen it anywhere.

[wheatgod]

I thought the reason might be that the story is written by loads of different people, almost the whole development team. And with such a collaborative project, its hard to credit properly.

Half Life was written by a proper novel writer, wasn't it?

[quadraspazzed]

Right, time for me to ask again- has anyone ever played or seen the game 'Arcatera'?  I did some voice work for it and am intrigued to know if it ever appeared.  I think I've seen that it was released in English, but I've never actually seen it anywhere.

You can get it for a tenner via Amazon used and new, and there's a few (new) copies floating about on ebay. However, looking at its Mobygames page, I'm not sure you'd want to.

Gonchi (who I kind of know from my HotU days): "Unless you find it at the bottom of a clearance bin, stay far away from it", "combat system has to be the worst in any RPG", "story and graphics just weren't enough to motivate me to even finish the game". Oh and just for you SAAP: "mediocre voice acting" :-P

And from some bloke called "Horny-Bullant":

Summary
This game is an insult to gamers

The Good
I hated this game.......there is no other way I can put it.

The Bad
First of all, the graphics made the game feel so unrealistic and the gameplay was just horrible. I couldnt stand to play this game for very long so feel free to correct me if I am criticising this game needlessly. But from what I saw of it (and played of it) this game is one of the worst RPG games to ever hit the market.

The Bottom Line
If a games store were giving these games away for free it still wouldn't be worth getting. In other words.....its a waste of space.

.

And I haven't come across it on any of the "usual places" either, so it really must be quite quite bad!

No offence to your talents as a voice actor intended.

[bill hicks]

Marc Laidlaw wrote Half Life and is a respected sci fi novelist.

He is currently working with Erik Wolpaw who co-wrote Psychonauts. Christ knows what on.

[sick as a pike]

And I haven't come across it on any of the "usual places" either, so it really must be quite quite bad!
No offence to your talents as a voice actor intended.

That's ok.  Thanks for looking though- last time I checked I couldn't find much.  
I do remember that at the voice sessions there was a feeling the whole thing was an ill-conceived mess.  All the lines were supplied totally out of context so you had no idea what you might be responding to.  
Plus I probably was a bit shit anyway, independent of all that.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I can confirm that pikey has a lovely voice, rich as treacle, soothing as, er, more treacle, probably.

Friend of mine has been writing dialogue for some rally-driving game. Basically thirty ways of saying 'turn right in two hundred yards'. Mind you, he started out writing for Doctors, so it's a step up...

OH SNAP,  NO I DI"INT etc.

[Still Not George]

In larger projects it's much as wheatgod says - it's almost meaningless to give writing credits on a lot of games as the interactive nature of the format means that the dialogue and so on are in many ways the tertiary or worse means by which the game communicates its intent. The design of a Half Life level and the effect that has on the player, as well as the visual and gameplay elements of the opposition, are more important to the communication of the Half Life universe than the writing.

But yes, it is true, writing needs to be held in greater esteem in the industry if we're to move into more artistic pastures. One major problem is that writing for games is an almost entirely academically untouched area atm - the leaders of the form are people with self-taught concepts of how to communicate the feel of a game.

[quadraspazzed]

That's ok.  Thanks for looking though- last time I checked I couldn't find much.

No worries :)

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

In Metal Gear Solid at least, we know Hideo Kojima (with one or two other people) is behind all the story and the dialouge. but in other games with genuinley great stories, like FFVII, Silent Hill 2, or Ico and Shadow of the Colossus I'm left wondering, "Why the hell isn't the person who wrote this brilliant story, that's better than a lot of films and whom's role is so crucial in my enjoyment of the game. getting the great big credit they deserve."

I don't think Ico and Shadow of the Colossarse really have great stories anyway. The plot for both of them amounts to a few sentences and the production design fills in the rest. They're one percent inspiration, ninety nine percent art direction.

Silent Hill 2 is probably the best example of interactive storytelling I can think of, because the way that you play the game influence where the story goes. A game could boast cut scenes made by the cream of Hollywood talent and a million gameplay innovations, but if the two things are essentially separate then it's not really moving gaming forward as a unique artform.

[Little Hoover]

I wouldn't say it's all just art direction, there's other elements that help the tone of them, and the way the scenes are presented as well are important.
But yeah their not such good examples I suppose.

But as for your other point, yeah, a lot of games (the other silent hill's included) can claim to have multiple endings, but it's really just based on if you picked up an item somewhere or a choice you made near the end of the game, so you could basically just save before those points and do everything else the same. In SH2 the line of distinction between which ending you get, is a lot more blurry, in my first playthough, I'd fufilled quite a few of the conditions for the Laura and Suicide endings, but It just worked in favour of me getting the Laura ending, thankfully.

[falafel]

But Silent Hill II is bullshit, surely? I found it quite difficult to really discern a story at all amongst the appalling voice acting, crawling limbless zombies and silly cryptic puzzles. God, it's always baffled me as to why that game has acquired such a following, it really has. Sure, it's pretty spooky, but... jesus... it just felt like a big exercise in mindless button-pushing to me. So what if it had multiple endings, so did Choose Your Own Adventure - although you're probably going to start saying that they were somehow worthy of praise now, aren't you?

I actually found that Half Life 2 was an excellent example of storytelling through gaming - insofar as the medium had advanced at that point. It used the resources and established codes of gameplay to an exceptional level. I guess you could argue that games like Silen tHill 2 are trying to create leading-edge interactive storytelling paradigms from which developers might produce a more coherent and worthwhile end result - but as it stands, the games just feel far too confusing and messy for me - concept over execution, and I wonder just how valid the concept was in the first place.

[Little Hoover]

I'm not saying the fact that they have multiple endings makes it great (although it is) just the fact, that it's influenced by how you play it is good.

But it told you, most of what you needed to know through it's cut-scenes, although without over-explaining everything, and leaving you to figure things out. I mean there's extra depth and subtext given through the memo's you read, but their not essential.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

But Silent Hill II is bullshit, surely?...

Madness. The reason it's so popular is that it's not just mindless button bashing, it's crammed full of symbolism and such for you to decipher and think about.

The point of the story is the main character coming to terms with the kind of person he is, which is why the way you get the different endings is so good, because it gives a moral weight to your actions.

It's all very well for Metal Gear Solid to give you the option of not killing anyone, but (unless you're playing on the higher difficulty settings) there's no real consequence to the choice. You get the same ending for playing like Rambo as you do for playing like Army Jesus, which means that as good as the game is, it's just an imitation of cinema with interactive action scenes.

[Beck]

It's all very well for Metal Gear Solid to give you the option of not killing anyone, but (unless you're playing on the higher difficulty settings) there's no real consequence to the choice. You get the same ending for playing like Rambo as you do for playing like Army Jesus, which means that as good as the game is, it's just an imitation of cinema with interactive action scenes.

Although it didn't have any sort of impact on the actual story, the dream sequence in MGS3 in which you're walking through a shallow river, trying to avoid the ghosts of soldiers you've killed throughout the game was really quite effective. Particularly as it shows the method of execution - I remember on the playthrough after I'd just worked out how to interrogate and slash people's throats, every single ghost came at me with blood gushing out of his neck, screaming stuff like "Aaargh, my head's coming off!!" Which sounds positively ridiculous, but for some reason was absolutely terrifying at the time...

[Famous Mortimer]

Claude, you're right about the ending not being different for Metal Gear Solid depending on how you play, but not killing anyone adds an extra dimension to the game, means if you enjoyed it you can have another run through and challenge yourself, and is good fun. Comparing it to SIlent Hill 2 is a little unfair because SH2 is in a very small minority of games which have multiple endings, and is short on a lot of things which make MGS2 great, and vice versa. Doesn't make either game better or worse, just makes them different.

Silent Hill 2 is actually more linear than MGS, I think. Go here, do this puzzle, unlock this door, go back here and pick this up...I love it, but there's very little point in going exploring (and the game doesn't really let you). MGS2 (as an example) is still very much A-to-B, but the way you get from A to B can be different, and there's optional stuff you can go back and do once you get the higher level keys. They're neither of them free-roaming like the GTA games, but so what? They're both absolutely amazing games, brilliant examples of storytelling using computer games that are oodles of fun to play.

[Mister Six]

MGS3 is proving fucking annoying and no fun at all thanks to the lack of sight cones on the radar. Is there any way to upgrade it so I get sight cones? Because what I end up doing in every fucking screen is charging in to see where all the guard positions are, then getting horribly shot to bits because it's actually less boring than hiding for THREE MINUTES while the alert and warning timers turn off.

Really, how they turned the awesome MGS2 into such an anal-retentive boring bag of shit amazes me.

I actually found that Half Life 2 was an excellent example of storytelling through gaming - insofar as the medium had advanced at that point. It used the resources and established codes of gameplay to an exceptional level.

HL2 had some glorious production values and the 'exposition through tannoy' idea was clever, but the story as it applied to the gameplay was utter bollcks - it never felt like Freeman was actually in control of any part of the story, just mindlessly being buffeted from one checkpoint to the next, with all the major stuff happening elsewhere.

[falafel]

But Silent Hill II is bullshit, surely?...

Madness. The reason it's so popular is that it's not just mindless button bashing, it's crammed full of symbolism and such for you to decipher and think about.

The point of the story is the main character coming to terms with the kind of person he is, which is why the way you get the different endings is so good, because it gives a moral weight to your actions.

Fair enough, but I personally really didn't feel like it was a well told story. It just didn't engage me at all. I suppose the intention was admirable though, and it clearly made a big impression on a lot of people. I guess it's just one of my blind spots, like Star Wars, Genesis and beef wellington.

[Huzzie]

That bit mentioned, walking through the canal with the ghosts of those who died by your hand in MGS sounds very interesting. i would like to see that.

Could anyone possibly post a YouTube link of that level please? I have looked myself but not knowing anything about the game (never played it, dunno what it is) I dunno what tags to go for so I couldn't find anything resembling it. It didn't help that there seems to be a MGS game called MGS Ghost or something.

[Capt.Midnight]

That bit mentioned, walking through the canal with the ghosts of those who died by your hand in MGS sounds very interesting. i would like to see that.

Could anyone possibly post a YouTube link of that level please? I have looked myself but not knowing anything about the game (never played it, dunno what it is) I dunno what tags to go for so I couldn't find anything resembling it. It didn't help that there seems to be a MGS game called MGS Ghost or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbhZwcWsaDo

There ye go

[Beck]

Interesting as it is, no-one will have bothered to upload it (edit: I stand corrected) - it's literally two or three minutes of the main character slowly wading through shallow water, avoiding screaming ghosts and then dying at the end of it. Officially a boss battle, it was one of a handful of genuinely brilliant ideas in MGS3; exactly the sort of experimentation that made the first game so appealing originally. Similarly innovative, I thought, was one of the other boss battles, the epic sniper battle with The End; perfectly executed, engaging, and a lot of fun to play. Unfortunately, the rest of the game - in terms of plot/characters/dialogue at least - I found was far too conventional and boring: truly a romping cliché fest all-round, but I suppose that's what you come to expect these days.

Metal Gear: Ghost Babel is probably what's coming up on your search - a non-canon GameBoy Color addition to the series, released not long after MGS and given an identical title in Europe for maximum cash-in potential. It's actually really very good, as far as GBC games go.

MGS3 is proving fucking annoying and no fun at all thanks to the lack of sight cones on the radar. Is there any way to upgrade it so I get sight cones? Because what I end up doing in every fucking screen is charging in to see where all the guard positions are, then getting horribly shot to bits because it's actually less boring than hiding for THREE MINUTES while the alert and warning timers turn off.

Try surreptitiously taking a guard hostage, and then interrogate him for information - one of the pieces of information you can get is every enemy location (which will appear on your map), and another particularly useful one is a radio frequency to call which will stop any alert.