The New Doctor Who thread

[Ray Le Otter]

I can't find the old one. Damn this new forum, everything looks so untidy.

And so we start another thread...

I've got to say that the series so far has been very good (with only the Daleks being a bit shit) and it's good to see Tennant's toned down his gurning and shouting. Not so sure about that Captain Jack clip from "Utopia" though, though it does raise interesting questions such as why the Doctor is so keen to get away from him?

And the scarecrows featured in this week's "RadioTimes" look the dog's bollocks.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

They are indeed the dog's bollocks. Big lurching bollocks made of straw.

And seeing as we're starting anew, I will add my aproval to series 3. As you say, only the Dalek two-parter has disappointed (and I was actually expecting that to be one of the highlights), while the rest have all been thoroughly entertaining.

Now that we're half way through, I can't really see it tailing off, especially not with the return of Captain Jack* and Simm as "Mr Saxon" in the climactic two-parter.

Of course, these confident words could come back to haunt me.

*hopefully back to his old charming and lively self after his disappointingly dull and morose showing in Torchwood. 

[The Gush]

Erm, hello.  This is still Cookd & Bombd isn't it?  Getting use to the new set-up is a bit like first day at school or something...

Anyway, I agree that Mr Tennant's acting has improved this season though I still think he goes a bit silly when he explains stuff in that ultra quick delivery.  Sometimes his attempts at idiosyncratic behaviour seem a little contrived to me.  Overall I think the season is better than last year's, largely down to Martha Jones.  I just wish the writers didn't have to make out she's in love with him.  I don't mind a bit of flirting but at this rate by the time we get to the finale, she's be at full Rose "I wuv you Dr!" stage.

What I'd really love to see in new Who is an acknowledgement of his previous incarnations like in the mindbending duel with Morbius or the dreaded mind probe scene in Day of the Daleks.  That would be spiffing.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

I'll be furious if the "best and worst of DW" thread is now lost, as we all put a lot of thought and detail into that, talking about huge amounts of old and new stuff.

[Ray Le Otter]

We do apparently get some sort of verbal acknowledgement of the McGann Doctor's existence in Paul Cornell's story.

Which is nice.

And yes, where are the "Old Doctor Who" and "Best and Worst of.." threads? It's a damn shame if they're gone.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I'll be furious if the "best and worst of DW" thread is now lost, as we all put a lot of thought and detail into that, talking about huge amounts of old and new stuff.

Agreed. I appreciate that it is in no way Neil's fault if that thread has gone, but it really would be a shame, as people - myself included - had taken a bit of time to write something interesting about their best/worst stories.

I'll never get that 20 minutes back...

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

As I understand it, the old threads aren't gone it's just that General Discussion is hidden so if you want to see specific threads you'll have to ask Neil to move them to here.

Anyway, Doctor Who. I saw an episode a few weeks back, with Mark Gatiss which was a bit rubbish. Instead of an interesting treatment of the ethics of scientific research, it just degenerated into a rip off of Tom Sizemore film The Relic.

[samadriel]

They are indeed the dog's bollocks. Big lurching bollocks made of straw.

And seeing as we're starting anew, I will add my aproval to series 3. As you say, only the Dalek two-parter has disappointed (and I was actually expecting that to be one of the highlights), while the rest have all been thoroughly entertaining.

I think this season's shown a lot more promise than the previous two, but did you blokes seriously like 'The Shakespeare Code'?  If I may, I'd like to take a leaf from the 'Shark Sandwich' school of reviewing:

'The Shit Code'.

...It didn't really merit any greater depth of regard than that, although I do wish I could've squeezed 'fucking appalling' into that somewhere.

[Ray Le Otter]

Ah, samadriel. You found us.

Yep. I liked "The Shakespeare Code". I was more entertained by just one minute of that than at any point during the whole 45 minutes of the snorefest that was "Daleks In Manhattan"*. Can't see what some people found to really really dislike about it.

Although I'm in no doubt I'm going to get told.


*and can I just say that the last time I laughed as much at a "cliffhanger" was at the end of an episode of V in the 80's when some woman gave birth to a boss-eyed green alien.

[Jemble Fred]

the dreaded mind probe scene in Day of the Daleks.

Do you mean the bit when Pertwee lies on a table and they project a couple of pictures of William Hartnell behind him? Yes, dreadful indeed. The entire show is dreadful. I downloaded all four parts of DOTD weeks ago, and have been desperately dragging myself through them (ten minutes left!), perhaps as some kind of punishment, perhaps due to some rose-tinted mistaken view of all Dr Who being great. But by god any single one minute of all New Who is superior to every minute of Day of the Daleks I've seen.

I greatly admire Toby Hadoke, but I disagree with his take on Old Who, I've discovered. Especially pre-Tom Baker, it's a constant disappointment in every quarter – I'm not talking wonky sets or over-the-top acting, I'm talking about dull, dull ultimately amateurish TV, indifferently written and just badly made, pretty much demonstrably, sequence by sequence.

Phew. That feels better. It's been annoying me all through watching the show.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

If the Paul McGann period is to acknowledged, then so would the TV Movie. So consequently the story of The Master's trial on Skaro and his escape will have to be integrated with the new stuff about "Mr Saxon".

[Jemble Fred]

Well of course – the TV movie is the one unquestionably 'canon' part of McGann's time as the Doctor. Eric Roberts and all.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

I only saw it back in January, and actually really liked it.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I think McGann is only acknowledged in the briefest and most elliptical terms (from what I'm told), therefore the might not go into serious continuity later this series. If they did, surely it would be unnecessarily confusing to people unfamiliar with the show pre-Eccleston.

I'm all for continuity, but I appreciate that too many back-references to the old series would be a big mistake. I think that New Who has got these references just right so far - throwaway and meaningless to the new viewer, but fun for the old-school fan.

Incidentally, I don't think that Day Of The Daleks is badly made TV at all. You can level that accusation at quite a bit of old Who, but not dear old DOTD. Seriously, I think that's a solid little story, with very little to moan about.

Horses for courses etc.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

I'm a DOTD fan as well. Not a "classic" by any means (a ridiculously overused word) but a great story.

[Deadman97]

This month's Sky TV magazine has the closest we've got to a confirmation of what we all already know about Mr. Saxon.

[mothman]

Because anything published by Murdoch is automatically a) true, and b) quickly corrected/retracted if it turns out to be untrue.

[Jemble Fred]

I'm a DOTD fan as well. Not a "classic" by any means (a ridiculously overused word) but a great story.

Each to their own, of course, I make no grand statements about the show. But, watching it with an open mind for the first time at the age of 28, it just seems very poorly paced, drably designed and, all in all, excruciatingly slow and unexciting. It's nothing to do with it beng 'old' either – a war movie from the 40s can be tightly plotted and well-paced, it's not a skill that was invented with HDTV. But much of Old Who just misses the mark again and again. For me, that is.

I love Jon Pertwee for many things – Worzel Gummidge, the Carry Ons etc, but I find his Doctor risible at best – all that sub-Jason King couiffeured posturing, and cheap attempts at cashing on the karate craze etc. My god these shows make you appreciate everything from Ecclestone onwards.

[Deadman97]

Because anything published by Murdoch is automatically a) true, and b) quickly corrected/retracted if it turns out to be untrue.

Well, it contains the following-

"It's an epic and heartbreaking story," says Davies. "In Fact, 'Whovians' will have probably guessed that it's a real 'Master'-stroke!"

Even if it is bollocks, it's quite brassy bollocks to have attributed that to him. The spoilers I got from my mate who was an extra a few months ago (he told me about the Agent Smith-style Saxon underlings) turned out to be bang-on and all. Anyone still denying the presence of The Master at this point needs some slapping.

[mothman]

I'm not questioning tge Master's imminent appearance, but the Murdoch press' track record. Oh, and, c) any quote attributed to someone was always said by them exactly as quoted!

[Deadman97]

Haven't The Sun been pretty accurate up to now with Who spoilage, though? They nailed Rose leaving quite early on, as they did Ecclestone, and they spoiled the Dalek/Cyberman appearance too.

[Brad]

Is there anyway of getting the old "New Who" thread back and merging this one onto the end of it?

[Edley]

Even if it is bollocks, it's quite brassy bollocks to have attributed that to him.

They haven't attributed it to him. The "Master-stroke" line isn't in inverted commas.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Would Davies really say something that obvious and arch, though? He's been very tight-lipped (steady) about the climactic episodes so far, so I don't see why he would suddenly start making obvious and heavy-handed references to it now.

I doubt very much that this is an actual quote.

[Catalogue Trousers]

Jemble Fred wrote:

Especially pre-Tom Baker, it's a constant disappointment in every quarter – I'm not talking wonky sets or over-the-top acting, I'm talking about dull, dull ultimately amateurish TV, indifferently written and just badly made, pretty much demonstrably, sequence by sequence.

I'll take that gauntlet up and slosh you round the chops with it, sirrah! Just watch the "they sleep in my mind" scene with Troughton and Watling from Tomb Of The Cybermen -  in a minute or so, it knocks the crap out of any of that overcooked Doc/Rose "emotional" slush. And the acting is far, far better. And that's just one example.

I'll have to back up samadriel here - I've found most of this season, certainly the earlier stuff, highly disappointing. Smith And Jones was decidedly "meh", while The Shakespeare Code was just downright embarrassing and made me want to slap Gareth Roberts hard, which I thought that I'd never want to do. The first part of Daleks In Manhattan was also painful, especially the song-and-dance bit, although the second had some lovely moments and ideas (just a shame that said ideas were dropped almost as soon as they were raised).

Perhaps oddly, it's the most "derivative" episodes - Gridlock and 42 - that I've genuinely enjoyed the most: possibly because they're both very much "old-school" stories. They feel much more like Old Who. I think that maybe the time has come to admit that, while it keeps my attention enough to keep watching it, New Who just leaves me increasingly cold. But it's a bit of a rum do when the big "event" stories (Doctor Who Meets Shakespeare The Fanny-Rat Megastar And Throws In Harry Potter Gags! Daleks Meet The Ziegfield Follies And Everybody Loses!) are completely failing to impress, while the smaller, more modest yarns quietly mop the floor with them.

Still, tomorrow's episode does look blummen good. Can Cornell redeem himself in my eyes? Here's hoping!

[Jemble Fred]

I'll take that gauntlet up and slosh you round the chops with it, sirrah! Just watch the "they sleep in my mind" scene with Troughton and Watling from Tomb Of The Cybermen -  in a minute or so, it knocks the crap out of any of that overcooked Doc/Rose "emotional" slush. And the acting is far, far better. And that's just one example.

Consider that gauntlet ducked, I'm afraid – as I say, I make no grand statements about Old Who, just commenting on what I see as I see it (largely via random torrents). As it happens, DOTD did pick up a bit in the last fifteen minutes, even though its previous longueurs had rather done the damage I'm afraid. Hope springs often, and I'll no doubt keep on catching whatever bits of interesting Old Who swim into my ken, especially Troughton, but, ultimately, no... I have many favourite bits of Who from many eras, but it seems, on the whole... progress has been made.

[Backstage With Slowdive]

In some respects DW simply recycles the same ideas and approaches in new trappings. Rose Tyler and Martha Jones are just the latest attempts at "modern Britain" companions, going right back to Dodo Chaplet in 1966.

[The Gush]

I don't think DOTD is dreadful but it's hardly a classic.  My favourite part is the dreaded mind probe scene simply because of the syncopated rhythm of the Daleks' chanting "YOU-WILL-BE-EX-TER-MIN-ATED!"  Surprised no one has sampled it.  I have a fondness and affection for that era simply because that's when I was growing up.  New Who, with its pop culture references, bombastic scores and over-the-top sentimentality can sometimes leave me cold.

I wish UK Gold would go back to repeating Hartnell and Troughton stories like they did during the early to mid nineties.

[Brad]

Martha's modified phone will not work as it did because even if it could transmit through time and space, the conversation when Martha's mum picks up would be one way only from Martha to her mum because the phone Martha's mum has has not got the capability to transmit back through time and space, it being a plain ordinary phone. This should have been thought through by the writers unless that sonic screwdriver has become as I've been starting to call it, Dr Who's magic bloody wand.

[Still Not George]

It's not new, Brad - Rose had the same piece-of-shit-excuse-for-an-Earth-scene in The End Of The World.