The ironies

[actwithoutwords]

I've been thinking about this a fair bit recently, particularly after the Gervais/ Shandling face-off over christmas. A significant proportion of us here decry the pseudo-ironic racism/homphobia etc of Little Britain and Extras. But on the other hand, I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of this exact same group indulge in the same type of thing down the pub or with our friends.
I say this obviously, because I do. I am quite partial to a bit of wilful offensiveness, full in the knowledge of how childish it is. In objecting to Gervais 'fat little Nazi' hilarity, yet getting laughs out of stuff in the same neighbourhood, am I necessarily a hypocrite? If I ever wrote a sitcom it certainly wouldn't be full of that type of stuff, but is holding professionals to a different moral standard than myself just self-delusion?

Anyway, this isn't meant to be about Gervais or LB themselves, it's about the standards you hold yourself to. Do you enjoy playing with the dangerous flame of ironic racism/ sexism/ homophobia? Do you ever question how ironic it is deep down? Do you worry that by perpetuating stereotypes you are actually doing harm?

[Emma Raducanu]

I'm sexist. Edit: And it does get on my nerves a bit on tv. Rather than accepting it on tv, I should attempt to avoid being sexist myself. Edit: Television educates.

[actwithoutwords]

Misogyny is probably my favourite I must say. The bitches love getting wound up about it.

[Dark Sky]

I've nothing against a bit of ironic racism / sexism / homophobia, but if I can do it then why would I want to watch someone else doing it on the telly?

[chocky909]

It's a bit like waving a loaded gun around. You know it's bad and stupid but you can't help it. It's a weird thing and I don't even nearly understand it. I hate real racism and other 'isms' but can't resist flirting with it. Maybe I just do it for the reactions? It's not like I do it with just anyone, only people who are on my wavelength (other racists yeah) but it's interesting trying to see who will pull out first, it's usually me with my current 'ironic' comedy pal.

I only ever mess with race and disabilty, never homophobia or mysogeny. For personal reasons I guess, I'm not comfortable with my own sexuality, and feel awkward when other people make jokes of this kind. I always get very annoyed with 'typical man' comments from the female colleagues at work. Cunts.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

I'm happy to casually trot out some sexism/racism/homophobism/gingism/disablism in the privacy of my own home. I do it because it's so far from what I actually believe that it scares me, and I have to make fun of it. Just saying these things out loud exposes how ridiculous anything other than tolerance is.

I don't feel bad about it because, firstly, I'm not a professional comedian, and secondly, I *know* that me and my mates are being ironic. You can't always be sure with some of the people who actually peddle it constantly for a living.

[Regular Chicken]

Slightly off topic but what was the "Gervais / Shandling face off over Christmas?

[non capisco]

Slightly off topic but what was the "Gervais / Shandling face off over Christmas?

On thr interview programme 'Ricky Gervais Meets Garry Shandling', Shandling was extremely frosty with Gervais and more or less accused him of anti-semitism on the basis of what he'd seen of 'Extras'.

[Regular Chicken]

Really!? That's excellent. Must see if I can find that somewhere.

[non capisco]

I'm happy to casually trot out some sexism/racism/homophobism/gingism/disablism in the privacy of my own home. I do it because it's so far from what I actually believe that it scares me, and I have to make fun of it. Just saying these things out loud exposes how ridiculous anything other than tolerance is.

I don't feel bad about it because, firstly, I'm not a professional comedian, and secondly, I *know* that me and my mates are being ironic. You can't always be sure with some of the people who actually peddle it constantly for a living

This sums it up for me as well. I'm sure most of us pretend to voice bigoted opinions in front of close friends for laughs in order to make fun of the opinion.

[non capisco]

Really!? That's excellent. Must see if I can find that somewhere.

I think the whole kit and kaboodle is in the last couple of pages of the Comedy Chat YouTube thread. Failing that, YouTube!

[actwithoutwords]

So is the difference that we are sure that we definitely don't hold those opinions, and neither does the 'audience', whereas there's a suspicion that comedians pander to people who may well actually be racist/homophobic?

[Rev]

The difference is in knowing the audience, and how they'll take it.  What LMC said, really.  I'll be hideously racist, sexist, anythingist, but only in front of people who actually know me, and therefore get the 'joke'.  Add one stranger to the room and that shit's knocked right on the head.  On stage, or in a sitcom, you're playing strangers every night.

[chocky909]

Irony should be kept in the privacy of your own home, or podcasts.

[Sheldon Finklestein]

I agree that it's not hypocritical to hold comedians to a higher standard, because there are key differences between joking in private, and carefully preparing a script for widespread dissemination amongst the public. When you or I make an ironically racist joke, it's a spur of the moment thing, with people we trust not to take it at face value. When Gervais does it, it's something he thinks is worthy of being written down and performed. The problem is, he's not really saying anything with it. I think, as a rule, ironic racism is acceptable if you have a point. Therefore, the Brass Eye sketch where the black man apologises for all black criminals is alright, because it is making a statement about bias within the media. Extras, on the other hand, seems only to be saying "it's impossible to be around a gay/ black/disabled person without saying 'hur, bummer/nig-nog/s*****c', isn't that right, lads?" Which is neither true, nor funny.

The litmus test for whether something is truly ironic should be whether it could be enjoyed by actually prejudiced people. I can't see a racist watching the Ting Tong sketch and thinking 'oh, the irony is delicious!' I can see them laughing at the asian, though. If you apply this to joking with your mates, well, if you know they're not racist, what's the problem?

[glitch]

I'm happy to casually trot out some sexism/racism/homophobism/gingism/disablism in the privacy of my own home. I do it because it's so far from what I actually believe that it scares me, and I have to make fun of it. Just saying these things out loud exposes how ridiculous anything other than tolerance is.

This.

However I admit I'm not above throwing out some form of bigoted comment when there's someone new in our group and seeing if they pick up on it and argue/agree. Depending on their reaction I then either continue or backpedal.

_{That's right, I "troll" in real life.}

[Pylon Man]

I don't know really. I suppose the stuff that Gervais etc. peddles is lazy and doesn't really rise above the punchline being that the person in the joke is disabled or black or whatever. Eg. one of Gervais's "jokes" is going up to a wheelchair bound friend (who's obviously in on the joke) and saying "38 years old? You should be walking by now".

But then this is hilarious:
http://www.b3ta.com/board/7269030

Edit:

Just been browsing the net and came across this: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1881335

I think it's quite interesting. This joke for example, as it says is hilarious:

Two black guys are walking down the street. They're both pretty fed up. They've been in the country for a couple of months, but when they try to get jobs, accommodation or women, they're told to do one. Anyway, they're down to their last $50 note, when they walk past a plastic surgeon with a big poster in the window. It says:

"WE CAN MAKE YOU WHITE! ONLY $25!"

They talk about it, and then decide to go for it. One guy says, "tell you what, you go in and get it done, and when you come out you can give me the change."

So the first guy goes in, and a few moments later, there's a flash of blinding light and loud screaming, and 10 minutes later he emerges, completely Caucasian. His friend is amazed.

"That's incredible," he says. "Now give me $25."

His friend looks him up and down for a moment, and says, "why don't you just get a job, n**ger?"

but as the article says this one isn't:

Two Pakis were stabbed in a McDonald's last night. I'm lovin' it.

as the article says "In other words, it's funny if you think that a dead p**i (or any other group) is funny. It's funnier still if you find murder funnier than death from natural causes."

So to compare that with the Gervais example, it's only funny if you think the fact disabled people can't walk.

[SetToStun]

But then this is hilarious:
http://www.b3ta.com/board/7269030

I don't know if you realised, but that's actually from this story...

[Pylon Man]

Yes I know, which is funny, but the animation makes it funnier.

[SetToStun]

Damn right it does!

[Suttonpubcrawl]

I was thinking about the bloke in the wheelchair who got stuck on the lorry the other day, and I think that he's actually lucky to have had that experience. He's done something that's absolutely amazing and is the kind of thing hardly anyone else will ever get to experience. It must have been terrifying at the time but to come out of that kind of brush with death, completely unscathed and with the only damage done being to the tyres of his wheelchair is an incredible story to be able to tell, and I imagine it was very exhilarating.