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Death of the Internet?

Started by Pinball, June 10, 2007, 02:37:28 AM

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Pinball

QuoteHello Friends of TorrentSpy,

This message is to inform you about recent efforts by the motion picture studios to shut down TorrentSpy. As you may know, in February 2006 the major movie studios and their Washington lobby, the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), filed a lawsuit against TorrentSpy and other search engines.

We guess that hiring hackers and turning a blind eye to identity theft is not enough for the movie studios and the MPAA. Now they want to know who you are, what you search for, and what you download. In short, it is the view of the movie studios that websites should not allow anonymous use and your activity on the Internet - anywhere - is their business.

The really scarry thing is that if we lose this court battle, the movie studios will be able to go after any search engine or website and force them to collect data about YOU. It is not an exaggeration to say that losing this fight is a nail in the Internet's coffin.

We have spent the last year challenging their relentless campaign against the 1st Amendment and personal privacy laws Worldwide. We have succeeded in delaying the court order to turn on logs while we appeal it. TorrentSpy will not create logs of what you do on the site without your consent.

While we use Google Analytics for website statistics, TorrentSpy servers have never tracked your IP Address, the searches you make, or how you use the site. We are dedicated to your privacy and we are fighting for your rights!
Well, what do y'all fucking think about this? It certainly shivered my timbers...

SOTS


Pinball

I know...

I've long feared that legal action will kill torrenting/P2P. New laws against (allegedly 'extreme') porn by the UK government will also introduce ISP monitoring systems that could easily (and will IMO) function creep, so basically we could be looking at the end of the Internet we've grown to love, within a matter of months/couple of years. For example, imagine no more torrented US TV shows...

Not nice. Certainly, it would appear that the 'free-living' nature of the Internet is about to change forever. Get ready to be fingerprinted as you boot up your PC...

Pseudopath

I think "death of the Internet" is a little hyperbolic. The whole beauty of the Internet is its ability to evolve and overcome barriers (technological, legal or otherwise) and whenever a major torrent site has been shut down, countless more sites spring up in its place.

However, I do think we'll see a dramatic fall in the use of P2P software as more and more TV and movie content is uploaded directly to video streaming sites. There are already several sites like www.tv-links.co.uk that provide links to every episode of Lost, 24, The Simpsons et al, many of which are encoded for the high-quality DivX Web Player rather than grainy old YouTube-vision.

Of course, it's much easier for a streamed video to be removed by the copyright holder (although again these can easily be replaced), but I think the TV and movie industries would have a much harder time trying to prosecute end-users who simply watch videos rather than those who actively participate in their dissemination.

Cack Hen

Jesus I think you're overreacting a tad. This isn't even news, copyright holders have been trying to do this stuff for years. Ultimately, there'll be a way around it. They shut down one P2P service, another one pops up. Remember when they shut down Napster? I remember people saying the exact same thing then, but now we have absolutely loads of file sharing services.

These big companies are just acting on reflex, and have been doing so for too long. They'll work out sooner or later that it's a case of working with these sites rather than trying to take them all down. Apart from the license fee, people didn't pay to watch TV, so they're not going to pay to watch TV on the Internet. As to how profit is generated from downloading TV shows without adverts, well that's a whole other discussion. But there are feasible, reasonable theories.

Cack Hen

Quote from: Pseudopath on June 10, 2007, 03:26:39 AM
However, I do think we'll see a dramatic fall in the use of P2P software as more and more TV and movie content is uploaded directly to video streaming sites. There are already several sites like www.tv-links.co.uk that provide links to every episode of Lost, 24, The Simpsons et al, many of which are encoded for the high-quality DivX Web Player rather than grainy old YouTube-vision.

The most immediate problem with that, though, is that there's nowhere to store these files securely. Uploading them to YouTube and MySpace is temporary; until they find it and delete it. The only way to host them is to run them from a private server. Obviously that's gonna be very expensive and...who's going to do that? I'm sure you're right, though. It'll happen in the next few years.

Pseudopath

Quote from: Cack Hen on June 10, 2007, 03:34:25 AM
The most immediate problem with that, though, is that there's nowhere to store these files securely. Uploading them to YouTube and MySpace is temporary; until they find it and delete it. The only way to host them is to run them from a private server. Obviously that's gonna be very expensive and...who's going to do that? I'm sure you're right, though. It'll happen in the next few years.

Fair point, although there are already several open-source YouTube site scripts available and the cost of storage and bandwidth is plummeting day-by-day, so I think we'll start seeing an explosion of private video streaming sites by people who have the guts to host this content.

Even if this doesn't happen, the existing video sharing sites are more than satisfactory as they're demonstrating quite clearly that they're unable to keep on top of copyright infringements. A good example is that Sarah Silverman clip from last week's MTV Movie Awards. One person uploaded it to YouTube where it was viewed a few tens-of-thousands of times before Viacom got the link removed. A couple of people then tried to reupload it, but YouTube were obviously on the ball and blocked these straight away. However, a couple of hours later, eight more versions of the clip appeared and still appear to be active. It's physically impossible for YouTube or the original copyright holder to keep track of both new and existing infringements and even attempting to get a clip removed provokes a 'safety in numbers' reaction from users. That's democracy in action, folks!


Artemis

I agree, this ain't news at all, just an update providing information we already knew. If TorrentSpy gets shut down, it's only the end of the internet for them, the rest of us will just carry on as per normal with whatever new website or download method evolves. I don't use TS to get my goodies, anyway.

hencole

You have alloftv and tvlinks and their ilk whcih is far preferable to torrenting, which despite my technical expertise I find a complete nightmare compared to just clicking a divx link. The internet isn't going to die soon, and for every site there gets closed down another two will pop up.

Uncle TechTip

Solution
1. Use torrent tracker based outside US
2. There is no number 2

And yes, death of the internet is hyperbolic & demonstrates failure to understand what it's for, i.e. it's not there for us to trade movies for free. That's just a little bonus.

I'm starting to think it's time to look at Usenet again. Ain't no way they'd ever close that down.

chand

#11
Well, I for one will be glad if the internet dies. Yesterday I read that the internet is 'an amoral monster' which is 'wrecking the values that underpin society'.

The internet is destroying the world as we know it. So you might even call the MPAA heroes.

Aubrey Barkus

I know there are complex issues about copyright and freedom here but... doesn't that message from TorrentSpy come across to other people as a bit whiny?  Unless I've misunderstood they're complaining that people are trying to stop them stealing. 
"But we like stealing. Not fair!"
You young folk!

Pseudopath

Quote from: chand on June 10, 2007, 11:51:23 AM
Well, I for one will be glad if the internet dies. Yesterday I read that the internet is 'an amoral monster' which is 'wrecking the values that underpin society'.

The internet is destroying the world as we know it. So you might even call the MPAA heroes.

What a wonderfully ignorant article (and I include A N Wilson in that statement). I particularly loved this bit:

Quote"So what?" you might say. "Does any of this really matter?" I believe it matters very much, because this was another example of falsehood masquerading as truth.

...unlike most Daily Mail exclusives from "unnamed Whitehall insiders" then.

Uncle TechTip

Quote from: Aubrey Barkus on June 10, 2007, 11:54:28 AM
Unless I've misunderstood they're complaining that people are trying to stop them stealing. 
Yeah, you misunderstood you old duffer, copyright infringement is not the same as stealing. Not yet, anyway.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

What are they stealing, exactly? Files? Digital files? I don't consider the costless reproduction and distribution of digital files theft.

Cack Hen

Quote from: Pseudopath on June 10, 2007, 04:00:55 AM
Fair point, although there are already several open-source YouTube site scripts available and the cost of storage and bandwidth is plummeting day-by-day, so I think we'll start seeing an explosion of private video streaming sites by people who have the guts to host this content.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter which web provider you go with, as soon as they get a letter from Universal or something, saying legal action will be taken if your account isn't closed, then you're outtha there. I agree that the system for it at the moment is *somewhat* effective, but it's a temporary solution. I wonder if there's a way to get some sort of torrent streaming thing going...I'm not sure how possible that is, what with data being uploaded in random chunks.

Pseudopath

Quote from: Cack Hen on June 10, 2007, 01:40:57 PM
Yeah, but it doesn't matter which web provider you go with, as soon as they get a letter from Universal or something, saying legal action will be taken if your account isn't closed, then you're outtha there. I agree that the system for it at the moment is *somewhat* effective, but it's a temporary solution. I wonder if there's a way to get some sort of torrent streaming thing going...I'm not sure how possible that is, what with data being uploaded in random chunks.

I seem to recall that the Joost software (made by the people behine Skype) contains some kind of P2P functionality, which may make it harder to shut down unlicenced content. However, the developers appear to be deep in the pockets of the content producers, so it'll probably be swimming in DRM and other crap.

P K Duck

The issue here is not the internet or filesharing theft. The very same day that dvd's became digitally protected from copying, some clever so and so wrote some code that beat the new encyrption. When they started with demanding that we register programmes online, someone found a patch that by-passed it. Even games that demand you log onto a server to access them can be cracked. And people get busted for doing all this on a fairly regular basis as well, especially the ones who take the piss and do it openly. Remember the Napster e-mail spam? That's taking the piss.

No, the issue is information gathering. Very few people have the sense to have never typed their real name into a computer. To pay for services we have to identify ourselves on-line, even if it is behind a https site, so if you've ever paid for anything, chances are, your details exist on an on-line database.

The corporate wet dream is to have access to our credit-card statements, webtracks, and most importantly, limit the amount of time we spend on non-commercial sites. The most effective way of perfecting the latter is to either devalue n-c sites, or scare people away from even typing the addresses into the browser.


Does it matter that, for instance, some big entertainment corporation get's hold of your spending pattern? So fucking what you might think. Well, time and again it has been proven that market research limits consumer choice. So the more, say, HMV knows about it's customers, the less choice will be offered to all, and given the size and global reach of these corporations, that means a further homogenisation of culture directed squarely at instantly profitable mediocrity.

Fuck that.

Al Tha Funkee Homosapien

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 10, 2007, 01:31:38 PM
What are they stealing, exactly? Files? Digital files? I don't consider the costless reproduction and distribution of digital files theft.

That's because it isn't. It's copyright infringement. It's still wrong though.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I don't consider it to be wrong myself, if used privately.

The most borderline files in terms of ethics would be films and computer software. But you have to weight up whether you'd spend money on these under normal circumstances in deciding whether you're actually stealing, and I do go and see films at the cinema still, and I buy DVD's of films I like, and I do purchase computer software I need to use regularly.

TV programs and music, well that's another matter completely.

Al Tha Funkee Homosapien

Are you Judge Dredd? Then you don't get to pick and chose what's right and wrong. That's the law's job. Saying that I download shit loads of music and TV shows.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Well I'm talking about my own personal views on this, I'm not lecturing anyone.

Pinball

Quote from: Uncle TechTip on June 10, 2007, 11:46:13 AM
And yes, death of the internet is hyperbolic & demonstrates failure to understand what it's for, i.e. it's not there for us to trade movies for free. That's just a little bonus.
I accept the title is hyperbole - a strapline, if you will, to draw the punters in ;-)

However, this issue is IMO a very serious one, that is far broader than just 'stealing' a few episodes of 24. The ongoing legal shenanigans have also reached a quite serious stage, plus governments (thanks to post-911 opportunity) have introduced numerous monitoring and legal obligations on websites, ISPs, search engines etc. Google is not far from being just an extension of Echelon, for example.

I do believe we could be sleepwalking into a rather unpleasant era for the Internet in the next couple of years, if we're not careful. Sure, there will be ways to re-route around the control and monitoring mechanisms, but I'd rather it didn't come to that. Also, once laws change, and corporations have the ability to do what currently only the police and intelligence community do, and punishments become much more significant, then it does get serious. It's not a new issue, but I do get the impression it's reaching a critical mass...  At the very least, we should all keep a very close eye on developments, I reckon.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: P K Duck on June 10, 2007, 02:07:01 PM
No, the issue is information gathering. Very few people have the sense to have never typed their real name into a computer. To pay for services we have to identify ourselves on-line, even if it is behind a https site, so if you've ever paid for anything, chances are, your details exist on an on-line database.

'Forget CCTV and ID cards - Big Brother already exists in our computers. And we're willingly giving them the information.'

I heard a DJ say this recently. I think he's right.

George Oscar Bluth II

I think a lot of us had our eyes opened when all those AOL search logs were mistakenly released. It's creepy what they could know about you if they wanted to, and I'm not talking about your sick porn fetishes or whatever, I'm talking about real world information. Anyone at google browsing my records from today would know where I live, they'd know that I'm looking for temporary summer work, they'd be able to work out where I'm a student, they'd know what US university I'm applying to do an exchange with and more.

It's quite scary really, isn't it?

Uncle TechTip

Wi-Max city-wide mesh networks. That will be the time the Internet (or rather its protocols) really comes into its own. No need for Facebook in this community, we'll have our own version.

Santa's Boyfriend

Not seen this before, found it quite funny:


Uzi Lover

Oink doesn't seem to be working. Let's hope it isn't next!

glitch

Any real threats to torrent sites will


  • push existing ones further underground. Hell, my most useful source is pretty much isolated from the rest of the Internet.
  • encourage the use of anonymising services such as Tor and encryption protocols for BitTorrent (which already exist but are rarely used).

MPAA/RIAA will never shut down P2P etc. As the tags below note: the genie cannot be rebottled. How many years has it been since they suggested DRM on audio files? And what's still the dominant file format for audio files, despite the fact that there are newer, better formats now available?