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Water found on Mars. Really this time!

Started by Huzzie, June 10, 2007, 04:38:02 PM

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Huzzie



Beautiful! Unfortunately I have to do some painting so I don't have time to go into my thoughts on this and all the other interesting things that have been found on Mars, not to mention the Ric Hoagland type proofs of life.

I hope you lot will run with it for a bit. It really is a fascinating subject and planet.

Here is the info on the recent find from the below link...
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12026-mars-rover-finds-puddles-on-the-planets-surface.html

Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface

Smooth bluish areas on a Martian crater floor could be ponds, according to two scientists. The area is approximately 1 square metre (Image: Ron Levin)
Enlarge image
Smooth bluish areas on a Martian crater floor could be ponds, according to two scientists. The area is approximately 1 square metre (Image: Ron Levin)

A new analysis of pictures taken by the exploration rover Opportunity reveals what appear to be small ponds of liquid water on the surface of Mars.

The report identifies specific spots that appear to have contained liquid water two years ago, when Opportunity was exploring a crater called Endurance. It is a highly controversial claim, as many scientists believe that liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars today because of the planet's thin atmosphere.

If confirmed, the existence of such ponds would significantly boost the odds that living organisms could survive on or near the surface of Mars, says physicist Ron Levin, the report's lead author, who works in advanced image processing at the aerospace company Lockheed Martin in Arizona.

Along with fellow Lockheed engineer Daniel Lyddy, Levin used images from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's website. The resulting stereoscopic reconstructions, made from paired images from the Opportunity rover's twin cameras, show bluish features that look perfectly flat. The surfaces are so smooth that the computer could not find any surface details within those areas to match up between the two images.

The imaging shows that the areas occupy the lowest parts of the terrain. They also appear transparent: some features, which Levin says may be submerged rocks or pebbles, can be seen below the plane of the smooth surface.
Smooth surface

The smoothness and transparency of the features could suggest either water or very clear ice, Levin says.

"The surface is incredibly smooth, and the edges are in a plane and all at the same altitude," he says. "If they were ice or some other material, they'd show wear and tear over the surface, there would be rubble or sand or something."

His report was presented at a conference of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, and will be published later this year in the institute's proceedings.

No signs of liquid water have been observed directly from cameras on the surface before. Reports last year pointed to the existence of gullies on crater walls where water appears to have flowed in the last few years, as shown in images taken from orbit, but those are short-lived flows, which are thought to have frozen over almost immediately.
Speedy evaporation?

Levin and other reasearchers, including JPL's Michael Hecht, have published calculations showing the possibility of "micro-environments" where water could linger, but the idea remains controversial.

"The temperatures get plenty warm enough, but the Mars atmosphere is essentially a vacuum," says Phil Christensen of Arizona State University, developer of the Mars rovers' mini-Thermal Emission Spectrometers. That means any water or ice exposed on the surface evaporates or sublimes away almost instantly, he says.

But, he adds, "it is theoretically possible to get liquid water within soil, or under other very special conditions". The question is just how special those conditions need to be, and whether they ever really are found on Mars today.

If there were absolutely no wind, says Christensen, you might build up a stagnant layer of vapour above a liquid surface, preventing it from evaporating too fast. "The problem is, there are winds on Mars... In the real world, I think it's virtually impossible," he told New Scientist.
Simple test

Levin disagrees. He says his analysis shows that there can be wind-free environments at certain times of day in certain protected locations. He thinks that could apply to these small depressions inside the sheltered bowl of Endurance crater, at midday in the Martian summer.

He adds that highly briny water, as is probably found on Mars, could be stable even at much lower temperatures.

Although the rover is now miles away from this site, Levin proposes a simple test that would prove the presence of liquid if similar features are found: use the rover's drill on the surface of the flat area. If it is ice, or any solid material, the drill will leave unmistakable markings, but if it is liquid there should be no trace of the drill's activity.

Levin's father Gilbert was principal investigator of an experiment on the Viking Mars lander, which found evidence for life on the planet, although negative results from a separate test for organic materials led most scientists to doubt the evidence for biology.

Journal reference: R. L. Levin and Daniel Lyddy, Investigation of possible liquid water ponds on the Martian surface (2007 IEEE Aerospace Applications Conference Proceedings, paper #1376, to be published in IEEE Xplore)

Glebe


Blumf

There's also this here big hole that's been spotted from orbit. Around a 100m across and rather odd.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070605_mars_hole.html

Glebe


Uncle TechTip

I believe the colours have been enhanced though. In fact if it was water it should have a red hue, reflecting the Martian sky?

Pinball

Fascinating developments! I'm going out on a limb here, and predict that life will be unequivocably found. If there is water, life will exist IMO. It fascinates me to ponder what sort of bacteria Mars will have. Surely future human explorers would have no immunity, if said microbes were dangerous? Or, following Hoyle's comet bacteria theories, will the bacteria be genetically similar to Earth? Hmmm.

Huzzie

Quote from: Pinball on June 10, 2007, 07:38:17 PMOr, following Hoyle's comet bacteria theories, will the bacteria be genetically similar to Earth? Hmmm.

So fascinating to think about, isn't it? How would they be different? How much would they be different? Could they be almost impossibly different? How would the DNA read?

It would answer a few questions for sure but if bacteria is found, can you imagine how many wild questions will then be thrown up?

Maybe we are living in an interesting time after all!

Uncle TechTip

There's no capability able to find bacteria on Mars right now, so we'll have to wait for more missions to arrive.

Huzzie

Quote from: Uncle TechTip on June 10, 2007, 08:14:36 PM
There's no capability able to find bacteria on Mars right now, so we'll have to wait for more missions to arrive.

Yes. I don't think anyone was thinking we had the opportunity to find bacteria on this mission anyway though.

I think most time/effort/money for another Mars mission will be put into the proposed manned mission. That isn't to say there won't be further robots/drones until then.

I don't know if there is an unmanned mission in the pipeline specifically for finding proof of life. I would be surprised if there isn't after everything the Rover and the fly-overs have discovered this mission and over the last couple of years. If there wasn't one planned last week, I'm sure there will be now.

Anyone know what the next US Mars mission is? And what the Euro teams plans are?

daisy11

Quote from: Huzzie on June 10, 2007, 08:07:12 PM
So fascinating to think about, isn't it? How would they be different? How much would they be different? Could they be almost impossibly different? How would the DNA read?


No bacteria found yet but the meteorite from Mars discovered in Antarctica in 1984 certainly contained organic compounds (analysis published in 1996 I think?).  This paper discusses the carbonates and how an analysis of one meteorite revealed it was definitely affected by water.  No oceans, only temporary hydrous environments is their theory:

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/July04/carbonatesALH84001.html

Huzzie

Good point Daisy. I had forgotten about that.

I remember some wacko had made a website, years back, claiming that you could see a number of different animals trapped or fossilised in that meteorite. I definitely remember reading what he had to say about the "spider" that was in it.

Anyone know what I am gibbering on about? I would like to see that site again.

Pinball

Quote from: Uncle TechTip on June 10, 2007, 08:14:36 PM
There's no capability able to find bacteria on Mars right now, so we'll have to wait for more missions to arrive.
Agreed. It'll be a few years yet. But I'm willing to bet Blair's legacy on it.


Artemis

Quote from: Pinball on June 10, 2007, 07:38:17 PM
following Hoyle's comet bacteria theories, will the bacteria be genetically similar to Earth? Hmmm.

That would be my bet, with slight differences in its evolution relative to the conditions on the planet.

daisy11

#14
Quote from: Huzzie on June 10, 2007, 09:19:07 PM
Good point Daisy. I had forgotten about that.

I remember some wacko had made a website, years back, claiming that you could see a number of different animals trapped or fossilised in that meteorite. I definitely remember reading what he had to say about the "spider" that was in it.

Anyone know what I am gibbering on about? I would like to see that site again.

No, don't know that site but I found this guy (is he stoned?) wittering on about a man he met with the theory that spiders are from mars (obv a Bowie fan I guess;-).  Link below is frivolous and doesn't contain matter relevant to the scientific discussion of water on Mars, you have been warned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUwKaeZqjyo

I always think crabs are similar to spiders, but mites and ticks are their fellow arachnids aren't they.

Santa's Boyfriend

Bursts of incandescent gas have also been seen coming from the surface of mars.

Famous Mortimer

This other forum I go to had a bloke claiming large glass structures were on the moon too, and NASA just covered it all up. Load of arse, of course, but him using water on Mars as "evidence" of this was a bit dodgy. I hope more discoveries of this sort finally get us sorted out as a race a bit more. Probably not.

katzenjammer

The chances of anything coming from Mars, are a million to one, they said..... OOOH LAAAHH!

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Santa's Boyfriend on June 11, 2007, 09:40:40 AM
Bursts of incandescent gas have also been seen coming from the surface of mars.

Yeah sorry about that, my bad.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Uncle TechTip on June 10, 2007, 07:23:55 PM
I believe the colours have been enhanced though. In fact if it was water it should have a red hue, reflecting the Martian sky?

They probably have but only in the same way as all the red pictures were. No one knows what colour the surface of Mars is. IIRC there's no way of calibrating a colour camera to the Martian conditions without someone actually going there so all colouration is just guesswork.

Blumf

It's because the cameras they sent there don't use the normal colour ranges our eyes (and puny earth cameras) are set for. They use colour ranges like near IR to help pick up science type stuff, but that means they have to fiddle with the colourisation of the images and can't be 100% accurate. I think they also have different filters they use too, which complicates things further.

Al Tha Funkee Homosapien

I might not be a picture taken with a camera using the visible light part of the electromagnetic spectrum. I could be a radar representation or an infra red picture.


EDIT. Bah, what he said. /\/\/\/\

SetToStun

Someone here might know this, with any luck: would Mars actually have any sort of colour to the sky at all? There's practically no atmosphere from what I gather, and no moisture in what there is, and don't you need those to sort of bounce and split the light? Or have I just misunderstood?

Al Tha Funkee Homosapien

Wiki says

QuoteThe atmosphere on Mars consists of 95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, and contains traces of oxygen, water, and methane. The atmosphere is quite dusty, giving the Martian sky a tawny color when seen from the surface; data from the Mars Exploration Rovers indicates the suspended dust particles are roughly 1.5 micrometres across.

SetToStun

Cheers, Funkee - I can't for the life of me think why I didn't check Wiki myself. Must be having a bit of a moment...

PyramidHead

Quote from: Huzzie on June 10, 2007, 04:38:02 PM
Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface

Sorry to be the bearer of bad/dry news, but New Scientist have retracted the story. The image is actually from the wall of a crater, which would put the puddle at a slightly improbable angle!

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/space/

Alberon

Quote from: PyramidHead on June 13, 2007, 11:24:55 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad/dry news, but New Scientist have retracted the story. The image is actually from the wall of a crater, which would put the puddle at a slightly improbable angle!

Um well, maybe it's some kind of weird life form like out of Star Trek?

Shame really. Standing water on Mars did seem very unlikely, but there is clear evidence of intermittant liquid flowing down the side of some craters. Probably caused by ice being melted by small geothermal events.

I seriously doubt there is life on Mars now, but there's a good chance there was in the distant past. Finding out how easily life can get going is a really important issue. Within a couple of decades there will be space telescopes good enough to analyse the atmospheres of earth sized planets in other star-systems. That could, quite quickly, give us a strong indication of extraterrestial life (even if almost certainly not anywhere near intelligent life). So finding evidence of life on Mars or, perhaps even more importantly, Europa (as that is far less likely to have been cross-pollinated as life on Earth and Mars might have been) is so important. We don't know how inevitable life is on viable planets, though the fact that life on Earth got going so quickly the hunch is that simple life should be all over the universe.