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Stop Making It Up You Whinge Turd!

Started by Oscar, June 12, 2007, 11:53:40 AM

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Oscar

Last night I was chatting to my flat mate about Monty Don and he said, "Oh he has one of those made up illnesses, Seasonal Affective Disorder, I mean for fuck's sake, everyone likes the sun, but we don't all whine about it when it gets cloudy! Stupid bastard!"
Now I wasn't impressed with this attitude, I don't really know about SAD, but neither does my flatmate and to go from "I don't know much about this" to "They're all lying, it's clearly a made up illness" seems a bit cynical to me.
But then new far fetched illnesses that I don't understand pop up all the time - Sick Building Syndrome allergies to electricity  - so are they made up by attention seeking hypochondriacs? Or just drastic changes in the environment affecting us in ways that we (and specifically I) can't understand?

I've certainly seen people stress themselves into a vague illness – worrying about food allergies and tiredness to the extent that they become ill. But then it can take years for a serious illness to be taken seriously by the public, even when the Medical Profession has finally accepted it as real.
So, should we be suspicious about new illnesses with vague and complex symptoms?
Are these illnesses psychosomatic and does that matter anyway if the symptoms are real?
Do people need to just stop whining and pull their socks up or should we be taking a look at our environment and why it is affecting so many people in new and unpleasant ways?

Links:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder
           http://news.netdoctor.co.uk/news_detail.php?id=15082546 (electricity allergy).

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I too dislike people when their disposition is to be cynical, regardless of the facts or details about the issue they're being cynical about. It's particularly annoying when it's blatant that they have spent no time at all studying the issue and in fact are taking the cynical standpoint because it happens to be the coolest and easiest stance to take.

Oh sorry. Strange illnesses...errm.

Still Not George

I occasionally have to restrain myself from punching people twice when they hear Cerys has MS and they respond, "Oh, I thought that wasn't real?"

One punch for mistaking MS for ME, and another for thinking ME isn't real.

SetToStun

I'm kind of undecided about these things. On the one hand, part of me wants to shout "snap out of it!" at people who claim to suffer from things like SAD or SBS. For a start, anything can be a "syndrome" or a "disorder" with absolutely no genuine medical illness behind it. You could say a heavy drinker has Early Morning Fatigue Syndrome or Ante-Meridian Hydration Deficit Disorder and both would be perfectly true but it doesn't mean they necessarily have a genuine medical condition. However, some of these things do seem to be driving otherwise sound people almost to distraction, so perhaps there is something worth looking into. It's easy to see why some people will be dismissive of them too - especially as there seems to be a perception that experts are all too ready to come up with on-the-spot conditions to excuse just about anything ("is your kid a lazy, misbehaved cunt? No he's not! He has ADD/HD! And that means it's not your fault").

Basically, if anyone can show a genuine medical reason for a syndrome or disorder then it's got much more chance of being taken seriously.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

One of my cousins was given a porsche for having ME.

the midnight watch baboon

I'd want more than a porsche to shag YOU

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Oi! When I was born, the region was 'Humberside', just because it's now 'Lincolnshire' doesn't give you the rights to be throwing these incestuous allegations my way!

Gah, I should've just said "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome".

Just been looking at some FDA trials for drugs to treat SAD. An approved drug managed to relieve depression in 80% of patients. Not bad when the placebo only managed 70%.

the midnight watch baboon

hur hur hur!

I once lived in Huntingdonshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire without moving house.

Yes, I really (insert gag)


joke gag, not sex, dental or pike gag.

Godzilla Bankrolls

Quote from: ersatz all folks on June 12, 2007, 12:37:23 PM
Just been looking at some FDA trials for drugs to treat SAD. An approved drug managed to relieve depression in 80% of patients. Not bad when the placebo only managed 70%.

So there's sufficient evidence showing it actually exists? Case closed.

I'd be cynical of people's claims about illnesses if they haven't actually been diagnosed by a professional.

actwithoutwords

I don't know enough about this type of thing, but I did read an article a few years ago about the influence of the drugs industry in certain 'illnesses' being recognised. A new disorder appears and suddenly there is a drug to treat it. One of the more suspicious ones was called GAD I think (General Anxiety Disorder?) But again, this is generalised cynicism about the attitude in the United States to psychological 'problems', given the sheer amount of money in the industry. I'm sure I could probably get something for that.

Marvin

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 12, 2007, 12:36:09 PM
Oi! When I was born, the region was 'Humberside', just because it's now 'Lincolnshire' doesn't give you the rights to be throwing these incestuous allegations my way!

Gah, I should've just said "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome".

It is simpler and they're not technically the same thing, generally what people refer to as ME is actually CFS and is now diagnosable and well-supported by the NHS, now if only it had been like that when I was 13 I might have been able to stay in education. I had CFS and was accused of being 'school-phobic' for three years, fun times.

thugler

Sick building syndrome sounds like nonsense based on the wiki article. It just sounds like a collection of annoying things that might occur in a building.

While I totally understand that ME is a proper illness and know people with it, I have trouble deciding whether the way it's treated is really beneficial. Wouldn't making people with it go outside more eventually get them back to some semblance of normality. Letting them stay inside all the time is only going to reinforce the thing isn't it?

buttgammon

I'm sure these things are actually real, although I think people sometimes abuse them by pretending to have them when they actually just want an excuse for a day off every now and then.

Another one of these types of disorders is one I genuinely think I suffer from myself, Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. Basically, it means I am predisposed to be an extreme night owl and therefore, my circadian rhythm is out of sync with the 'normal' say and have trouble getting up in the morning or going to sleep earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome

thugler

Quote from: buttgammon on June 12, 2007, 03:59:01 PM
I'm sure these things are actually real, although I think people sometimes abuse them by pretending to have them when they actually just want an excuse for a day off every now and then.

Another one of these types of disorders is one I genuinely think I suffer from myself, Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. Basically, it means I am predisposed to be an extreme night owl and therefore, my circadian rhythm is out of sync with the 'normal' say and have trouble getting up in the morning or going to sleep earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome

I'm pretty sure I have that.

Koant

Scientists find new disease: motivational deficiency disorder
QuoteExtreme laziness may have a medical basis, say a group of high profile Australian scientists, describing a new condition called motivational deficiency disorder (MoDeD).
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7544/745-a

The author, Ray Moynihan, also guest-edited this very interesting issue of PLoS Medicine about disease mongering:
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-toc&issn=1549-1676&volume=3&issue=4
(all papers in one single pdf here)

Godzilla Bankrolls

I could well be wrong, but that article was posted on April 1st 2006, as part of a journal on disease-mongering. Checking google now...

Godzilla Bankrolls


bithez

wow, that sick building syndrome article is really interesting. i've never heard of it before, but from that wikipedia article, it immediately sounded like a stress issue rather than a chemical one - particularly as one of the symptoms listed is "rage/weeping/paranoia/depression". wikipedia suggests it's an issue of "poor ergonomics" or "toxic mold", but this seems much more convincing to me.

Godzilla Bankrolls

Quote from: bithez on June 13, 2007, 10:04:39 AMthis seems much more convincing to me.

Christ, that Richard Smith is a penis. "Even though this syndrome has been debunked, you should still give me lots of money because it'll help your staff, er, somehow...".

Oscar

Quote from: Koant on June 13, 2007, 09:32:23 AM
The author, Ray Moynihan, also guest-edited this very interesting issue of PLoS Medicine about disease mongering:
(s'interesting, so I'm sticking it in full)
Quote from: Ray MoynihanPeople are easily duped about new diseases, conference is told
Newcastle, New South Wales Bob Burton
The enthusiasm with which news outlets uncritically reported the spoof disease motivational deficit disorder and the drug indolebant took their creators by surprise (BMJ 2006;332:745, 1 Apr).

David Henry, the convenor of a conference on disease mongering held last week in Newcastle, New South Wales, said the media coverage showed "that it is relatively easy to get [out] the concept of a disease that doesn't exist and a treatment that doesn't exist."

Dr Henry, who is clinical pharmacologist at the University of Newcastle, said the explanation for such gullibility was that "when it comes to health, people suspend the scepticism they use in other areas of their life."

Martin Palin, the founder of the Sydney based medical public relations company Palin Communications, disputed the suggestion that public relations companies "created" new diseases for drug companies. Public relations people, he argued, "do not dictate news"—instead it is determined by others, such as news editors.

David Healy, from Cardiff University's Department of Psychological Medicine, told the conference that "it is easy to sell the good kind of message about pills, but it is awfully hard to say there may be risks [with them]."

Professor Healey disputed the claims of drug industry funded patients' groups that people who use "mood stabiliser" drugs are better off than those who don't.

And popularising medical conditions, he warned, can go to extraordinary lengths. Professor Healey quoted from Brandon the Bipolar Bear, a children's book aimed at 4 to 11 year olds that was published in the United States in 2001. A doctor in the story tells a child: "There are good medicines to help people with bipolar disorder, you can start taking one right away ... I also want you to promise, Brandon, to take your medicine when your mother tells you to."

The effect of advertising directly to consumers and attempts to restrict it were also discussed at the conference. Such advertising is currently being reviewed in New Zealand, with the deadline for submissions closing at the end of April.

Barbara Mintzes, from the University of British Columbia, expressed concern at the challenges to regulations on drug advertising. She said, "I see an alarming trend in Canada towards what is called 'smart regulation'; in Britain it is 'better regulation,' which is the idea that you basically avoid regulating.

"Any time I have seen anyone presenting an argument in favour of expanding direct to consumer advertising they never say the 'A' word for advertising—they only refer to 'information.' You never see any reference to any of the research on the content analyses of direct to consumer advertising."

In Canada the media conglomerate CanWest MediaWorks launched a legal action last December alleging that the Canadian government's ban on direct to consumer advertising was an infringement of its right to freedom of expression.

In the concluding presentation at the conference the London based GP Iona Heath argued that the first step to countering "disease mongering" lay with the medical profession. "The first step has to be a genuine disentanglement of the medical profession from the pharmaceutical industry. There is no such thing as a free lunch ... Doctors can only provide appropriately independent and authentic advice to patients and indeed to politicians if they are seen to be completely independent of other powerful interests," she said.

hencole

Quote from: Godzilla Bankrolls on June 12, 2007, 12:49:04 PM
So there's sufficient evidence showing it actually exists? Case closed.

I'd be cynical of people's claims about illnesses if they haven't actually been diagnosed by a professional.

But thats the thing, it depends where the professional is. In England you are far more likely to diagnosed as deppressed, whilst in the US the same symptoms can often diagnose you as being Schizophrenia.

Santa's Boyfriend

There's some considerable debate as to whether there really is such a thing as Schizophrenia at all.  Various therapists have told me that nobody really knows exactly what it is.

Godzilla Bankrolls

Isn't schizophrenia like migraines, in that scientists can see no change in the map of the brain from a 'normal' state, but there are definite symptoms that the subject displays which can lead to a diagnosis?'

I'll admit that I'm no expert (and I'll check out my assumption shortly), but it's a bit far-fetched to say schizophrenia doesn't exist because we haven't come up with an entirely empirical, absolute method of saying "There it is!". There's plenty of evidence to suggest that it *is* a real phenomena; we've all encountered people with behavourial problems at some point.

SetToStun

Quote from: Godzilla Bankrolls on June 14, 2007, 11:30:09 AM
Isn't schizophrenia like migraines, in that scientists can see no change in the map of the brain from a 'normal' state, but there are definite symptoms that the subject displays which can lead to a diagnosis?'

I'll admit that I'm no expert (and I'll check out my assumption shortly), but it's a bit far-fetched to say schizophrenia doesn't exist because we haven't come up with an entirely empirical, absolute method of saying "There it is!". There's plenty of evidence to suggest that it *is* a real phenomena; we've all encountered people with behavourial problems at some point.

It's quite possible that the "no-one knows what it is" isn't denying it exists, just saying that no-one, well, knows exactly what it is. I can imagine that there's a big problem tying these things down when you're trying to understand and deal with what's going on in someone else's mind. We can't currently directly read thoughts so we're just going on what people choose to tell us about their condition. It's not like a broken bone - you can't just take an x-ray and say "oh yes - that's broken", you can only advance by degrees and by consensus. There's no doubting that there is a phenomenon that we currently call schizophrenia, but there's equally no doubting we don't really have a clue what it is or what the root cause is.

Godzilla Bankrolls

You're quite right, but I was just trying to address Santa's "There's some considerable debate as to whether there really is such a thing as Schizophrenia at all" comment.

It's tied into what hencole says about the division in diagnose: although there are a number of agreed-upon symptoms, the ways these are detected and interpreted by differing doctors can vary to a substantial degree.

Your broken bone analogy is good; there's no biological test for schizophrenia, and there's always been controversy (sometimes justified) around psychiatric illnesses.