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Audio Equipment

Started by wasp_f15ting, June 21, 2007, 10:01:31 AM

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wasp_f15ting

Well, since most of you are so addicted to music I am wondering do you all invest a small amount in  your audio too? For the past 5 years I have been living in one bedroom apartments and rooms. As such the concept of audio equipment did not expand beyond my sennheiser HD600 and the pro-ject amp that went along with it.

Now that I am back in a house again, my love for audio has begun again. However, this time around money is REALLY tight. Having to by shit like; furniture and other kinds of shit. So I went for the eBay route and found some amazing value stuff for rock bottom prices. I found a Naim Nait 3 amp for less than £200 and got some sexy Yamaha speakers which are now discontinued. For the past 5 years I have become extremely complacent about how good hi-fi can be. I was happy with the Logitech z-5500 and for the rest of the time the headphones did their work.

As soon as I put on the new White stripes album I knew there was something different...  compared to the Logitech (which are considered by PC aficionados to be the best of their kind) the sound was just so much clearer. I cannot believe how much of life it has given to my music. The sound is just stellar, I was worried whether the 30watts on the naim was going to be sufficient,  it turns out anything beyond the 9'0 clock position is far too loud. The speakers sound cleaner than the headphones which is the biggest surprise to me. When you sit back a bit it feels like you are being enveloped by music. A good friend of mine once said he didn't believe in 5.1 surround since the human ears have 2 inputs so the rest of your perception is only built on the fact they need to separate and delay the way the sound reaches you.

I didn't believe this till now, playing the re-mastered Dire Straits Brothers in arms reveals such an open sound it feels like they are in front of me.. the bass isn't heavy but when the amp reveals so much it feels like that is the last thing that is needed.

I switched to some chemical brothers and then the new LCD soundsytem album and again I am hearing instruments I didn't hear before. The resolution of the sound is so amazing.

At the moment the source for the music is an onboard realtek sound card which isn't the best. I am thinking of upgrading to m-audio when they release some new drivers for vista. But from what I have heard already the sound card has to do so much to improve what I already have. I think the 882M on my motherboard isn't too bad anyway since it was a premium motherboard.

If any of you have any soundcard recommendations beyond x-fi I am really interested in hearing about them.
I am not sure whether to go for a standalone CD player, since my MP3 collection is so huge, trying to convert to CD and then play them through that would be just a pain. I'll hold out for a decent cheap CD player on eBay and then use it for the main  I think.

So this thread is basically to ask questions about audio equipment and give/receive advice on making the best out of your system.

If anyone wants any pictures or more details about products mentioned I'll do so after request. Don't want to waste bandwidth now do we ;)

swarfmonkey

If you've got a load of CDs then get a decent quality CD player. If you've got all your music in MP3 I wouldn't bother. If you burn MP3s onto CD your adding another layer of loss although a CD player will be better at replicating the music than a PC.

That Naim amp is a belter and you could do with a really good CD player, I've got a Marantz CD63 KI signiture which is about the minmum level you should go for. Alternatively, try and pair it up with a Naim CD player or something like a Audiolab 8000CD. You could probably do with better speakers than the yamaha ones you've got too.

I've got two systems; the one at work is Marantz CD player hooked up to an Audiolab 8000A and TDL speakers. The one at home a Myriad T20 CD, Audiolab 8000S amp and Mission 752 freedom speakers. They both sound really good. I'm looking for an Audiolab power amp to bi-amp the one at home and some better speakers. I think I should sell my old Marantz PM66 KI amp to finance it (I don't use it anymore).

Finally you'll be surprised how much of a difference good quality interconnects and speaker wire make. Ixos, QED, Chord Co, and Van Der Hul all make excellent wires but a bit of trial and error comes into play depending on what equipment and music you've got.

If you want any specific recommendations on the wire front PM me.

semtex

Have you considered using an external DAC and running a SPDIF cable from the digital output on the sound card, into the DAC, then the DAC into the amp? It could yeild better results (even with an onboard sound card) than purchasing a new sound card - Soundcards are built to do many things such as surround sound processing, and of course analogue audio outputs, and to the cost of production is spread to cover all these functions. An external DAC is built to convert digital to analogue, and thats the only thing your money is going on. Subsequently, the quality should be better. As far as stereo vurses surround sound goes, I totally agree. Build a decent stereo system and you'll be more than happy. For the past 6 years I've been using an Audio Innovations Alto Amp with some Mission 702e's and a Paradigm PDR10 sub, and I'm not even considering getting rid of it in favour for surround. Its lovely.

gazzyk1ns

Quote from: swarfmonkey on June 21, 2007, 11:38:15 AM
If you've got a load of CDs then get a decent quality CD player. If you've got all your music in MP3 I wouldn't bother. If you burn MP3s onto CD your adding another layer of loss

No you're not, converting MP3s to PCM, in itself, is lossless!

MP3s needn't be audibly lossy to human ears, there's a lot of misunderstanding surrounding lossy compression. 99.9[add some more nines here]% of the time when people hear horrible artifacts with lossily compressed music, it's due to gain (which isn't related inherently to volume) issues, or issues relating to PC/Mac volume and hardware, not issues with the format or indeed the specific encoder.

There's software which can eliminate the problems related to gain (you have to use it pre- or whilst encoding though, gain damage done by a lossy encoder is irreversible), the most popular of which is ReplayGain - see MP3Gain, which is a Windows frontend for ReplayGain for use with MP3s.

Depressingly, after about 5 years of reading Hydrogenaudio regularly, I still don't understand things well enough to completely eliminate problems myself, so here ends my knowledge of the matter.

mcbpete

Quote from: gazzyk1ns on June 21, 2007, 03:00:29 PM
Depressingly, after about 5 years of reading Hydrogenaudio regularly, I still don't understand things well enough to completely eliminate problems myself, so here ends my knowledge of the matter.
Most of the problems arise from a poor mp3 encoding software. If you use the LAME engine (in CD-Ripping tools like CDEx and FreeRip or WAV encoding tools like WinLAME) and encode stuff at V0 VBR, you're gonna get files slightly larger than 192kbps CBR mp3s but at virtually CD rate (you get a frequency response from around 15Hz up to 20Khz ish, with no audible digital artifacts. Even listening to something loud on AKG240s headphones (which by the by are simply incredible) at near silence pieces of something like The Hafler Trio the tracks are nigh-on identical to the original CD-Audio.

Sorry, I've sidetracked the topic somewhat. But I cannae stand badly encoded mp3s and then people simply dismiss mp3 as a shoddy compression format.

Blumf

So what are people's opinions on the different lossy codecs out there? (MP3, Vorbis, etc etc)

gazzyk1ns

Quote from: mcbpete on June 21, 2007, 03:32:31 PM

Sorry, I've sidetracked the topic somewhat. But I cannae stand badly encoded mp3s and then people simply dismiss mp3 as a shoddy compression format.

Heh, in case there was any confusion, I completely agree with you, that's part of what I was saying. But further to that, there are gain issues (and again, sometimes hardware/PC volume) issues. Badly encoded MP3s can (obviously) have bad artifacts but this isn't 2000 any more, thankfully you rarely get people saying "Well ACTUALLY a 128kbps MP3 is good enough for me, no, I can't hear a swishy noise around the cymbals." nowadays. But people do still encode to MP3 at a satisfactory bitrate, hear something wrong, then put it down to it being an MP3. Heh, again, which I assume is the point we're both trying to make.

NattyDread

Love a bit of hi-fi me!
I currently have:
Cyrus iii Amp
Cyrus PSX-R Power Supply
Marantz CD6000ose C.D Player
Thorens TD 160 Super Turntable with a Rega RB250 arm.
Wharfedale Pacific Pi-40 Speakers

...and a set of cheap-ish decks for twatting about on and rocking the impromptu parties!

It sounds braw.

glitch

Quote from: Blumf on June 21, 2007, 03:42:37 PM
So what are people's opinions on the different lossy codecs out there? (MP3, Vorbis, etc etc)

I still stick with mp3. EAC + LAME = decent quality mp3s with a decent file size and no worry of DRM ever.

V2 APS all the way!

wasp_f15ting

SWmonkey,

How good are secondhand CD players? I am always afraid of them breaking down. Even new ones don't last forever. I had a Rotel RCD2 a while ago in 2003 and it fucked up on me in 19months after purchase. Rotel make their stuff in China I guess.

The Yamaha NS100 has the same drivers as the NS200 which was rated best speaker of its kind and won a supertest in 2000 I think. I can see why the treble is gorgeous and light with the silk dome tweeter. I am interested in Epos or TDL, though if I do go TDL I want a transmission line one. On the matter of TL speakers I am always amazed at the quality of the bass. I listened to a pair of PMCs a while back and wow! I hope a pair show up in ebay sometime in the future.

I use QED interconnects from my amp to PC.

Gaz, do you know if the M-Audio PCI cards or E-MU 2200 USB are any good at giving a decent mp3 output.

glitch

You can't really go wrong with M-Audio for an entry level soundcard. I've got a FireWire multi-output jobby for music buggery (~£200 at the time) and it's good enough. If you want to use a soundcard more for music creativity than just listening, I'd probably go the Teratec route instead though.

wasp_f15ting

Hmm, I just added my sub to the set up. Its especially good for stuff like chemical brothers and LFO where the bass has a meaning in the song. The YST-SW800 isn't the best sub for music though :( I need a cheap REL for the music part of the system.

Uzi Lover

I love hi-fi though I'm not really an expert. My specs are

CD player: Arcam CD72
Amp: Arcam Alpha 8R
Speakers: Quad 11L

which is fantastic, though a little too warm for some CDs. All of it was second-hand so I'm sure you'll be fine. I'd recommend downloading your CDs in FLAC from now on. Even if the ear doesn't notice the difference, psychologically you'll feel a lot better :-)

wasp_f15ting

Quote from: mcbpete on June 21, 2007, 03:32:31 PM
Most of the problems arise from a poor mp3 encoding software. If you use the LAME engine (in CD-Ripping tools like CDEx and FreeRip or WAV encoding tools like WinLAME) and encode stuff at V0 VBR, you're gonna get files slightly larger than 192kbps CBR mp3s but at virtually CD rate (you get a frequency response from around 15Hz up to 20Khz ish, with no audible digital artifacts. Even listening to something loud on AKG240s headphones (which by the by are simply incredible) at near silence pieces of something like The Hafler Trio the tracks are nigh-on identical to the original CD-Audio.

Sorry, I've sidetracked the topic somewhat. But I cannae stand badly encoded mp3s and then people simply dismiss mp3 as a shoddy compression format.

So, gaz would you reccomend a good D/A External convertor? I am looking at a couple at the moment:-

One is the extremely pricey one from Russ Andrews at £600, but I am sure it will show on ebay for £400 sometime.

http://tinyurl.com/39sw8q

Or this highly rated bit of kit:-

http://www.mood-lab.com/dice.htm

The second one, the non-usb version is only £100 on ebay, I was just wondering whether its worth spending a bit extra since I have so much flac and mp3 on my PC. I also have lots of bought stuff from Itunes. So this line is good then? Optical from PC -> DA -> Amplifier.

btw, what music do you guys consider as system testers?

thugler

Quote from: swarfmonkey on June 21, 2007, 11:38:15 AM
Finally you'll be surprised how much of a difference good quality interconnects and speaker wire make.

None except a sizeable chunk of the contents of your wallet.

DocDaneeka

If you are looking for a good CD player This is what you want!

Gazeuse

Quote from: wasp_f15ting on June 21, 2007, 10:01:31 AMA good friend of mine once said he didn't believe in 5.1 surround since the human ears have 2 inputs so the rest of your perception is only built on the fact they need to separate and delay the way the sound reaches you.

Well, that's not strictly true, because you can hear direction with one ear. If you couldn't do this, then you'd not be able to tell whether a sound was directly behind, above or to the front of you.

I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I think it's something to do with the shape of the ear and the way that they reflect the sound onto the inner bits.

I've been recording a lot of 5.1 surround music recently and I'm very impressed with it. There is a spaciousness to it which is fantastic as well as being able to shake the house with the sub.

wasp_f15ting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function

Soundstage is a pretty important aspect I'd guess. 5.1-10.1 or whatever they use in cinemas is usefull since there is enough room and time for the sound to be spatial. If you do not have a sufficient amount of room. Music is recorded front to you, then using surround is unfaitful. When your in a concert hall the music is transferred to you from the front, in a concert the sound is mainly projected toward you from the fornt. As such using 5.1 to convey different instruments at different channels is a bit fake don't you think? Your not going to get the string section to come and play at the back of you and the horn section to play at the side of you, whilst the soprano blasts in your face.

It would be extremely hard for a dolby engineer to localize the reflections in the concert hall and get speakers to recreate those noises in a subtle manner. 5.1 music might be great for kraftwerk and people like that, since its electronic and you can just chuck stuff here and there. Rock and classical.. I dunno I think it would sound extremely artificial. 5.1 music thus far sounds a bit gimickey, I have have listened to a few 5.1 dvds and they are far from convincing.

For movies 5.1 or greater is maybe worth it, and that is on the premise of a large room with enough room for your ears to discern the sound. If not there is going to be a heck of a lot of colouration. The sounfield will be have to be extremely articulate to convey an acurate image in small spaces.

Gazeuse

Well, if you want an exact reproduction of a concert, then yes, that would be difficult...May as well not bother with recorded music then, but there's no need to stick to recreating concert sounds with recorded music. Classical composers have for some time experimented with the spatial quality of music...Tippett's Concerto For Double String Orchestra, for example, or the off stage brass in the Verdi Requiem. With recorded 5.1 music, you can stick sounds anywhere.

When you stick a sting orchestra behind me, I tend to think...Blimey, that's great, rather than, Hmm...That's not possible.

I don't think that the size of the room matters much...The placing of the speakers (and some baffling) does, which is the ruin of many a 5.1 set-up.

In any case, reverb is in surround and it's great to be able to surround the listener with it if nothing else.

Blumf

From my understanding we have 5.1 and above mainly because cinema audiences are spread out too much for normal stereo to work for all of them so you need to physically place the sound. At home, where stereo can work the only real advantage is a bit of back fill, otherwise it's a pain to get right, especially in our tiny British houses, unless you have a large dedicated room.

wasp_f15ting

I quite agree on the reverb bit gaz. I think thats the thing with 5.1 surround. It should be used subtly for music.

But as blumf says, the whole surround sound thing is very hard to get perfect. I had a massive 5.1 system a few years back, I remember something very clearly I had lord of the rings on DTS and I was just really happy watching it all the swishing and swashing. Then to my horror I realised that my amplifer was set to DTS 2.0 so all the sound I thought was being surrounded by was being created by my front speakers. I felt like a right tit. After a few more listens I sold the whole thing off, bar some bits and bobs. The room I was in was far too small for the surround sound to breathe. To get that set up right, I had a decibel metre and was going to each speaker and working out the delay timings etc. So I thought it was perfect... bleh.

gazzyk1ns

Quote from: wasp_f15ting on June 22, 2007, 08:38:20 PM

Gaz, do you know if the M-Audio PCI cards or E-MU 2200 USB are any good at giving a decent mp3 output.

I've really got no idea. I don't mean that to sound snippy or abrupt, but to say any more would be misleading, as... I've got no idea!

Gazeuse

Size doesn't really matter (!). I record in a smallish back bedroom and the sound is the same in a large dubbing theatre...It's what you do with oyur speakers that counts.

The main difficulty in a normal room is finding a bit of space behind the listening position (The sofa which is generally shoved up against the wall) to place the rear speakers....If you can do that, you're laughing...All you need ideally then is something on the walls to stop unwanted reflections.

I know what you mean about being lied to by your ears...I've been enjoying the effect of twiddling a certain knob, only to find that it wasn't actually doing anything!!!