Terror level is now severe instead of critical.

[Go With The Flow]

http://london.fridaycities.com/radar/assets/2007/7/3/terrorlevels.jpg

Is that top one horribly blurry, or have I been masturbating too much? "Hysterically Out of Touch Headlines imminent" I think.

[daisy11]

This wee film was made a while ago but it's good on war and US domination and weapons manufacturers. 'War on Terrorism'  (I'm not political though, I'm just shallow and love his voice)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/filmnetwork/A3328120?PollErrorCode=4&s_redirectto=A3328120&s_show=signedout

[SetToStun]

... a TV screen flooded with people, breaking down crying for the loss of America's "innocence"

That "innocence" was lost when the Noraid tins went round, I'm afraid. Public sponsorship of a terrorist group pretty much removes your right to whinge about terrorism. Wasps really shouldn't complain too loudly when they get stung.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

Except the public support was by a tiny minority and Noraid was accused of being a front for the IRA by both the US and UK governments.

[Pinball]

Wasps really shouldn't complain too loudly when they get stung.

Well said. The idea that the giant war machine that is the US is a victim is an extremely sick joke. For example, the US has a military presence in 100 of the 151 countries in the UN. That's the reality of its domination, and all the abuses you would expect from such unbridled power.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

Ah the old US deserved to have 3000 of its citizens murdered argument. Never mind that all those people murdered weren't actually part of the 'giant war machine that is the US' and were just going about their work and lives as most people all over the world tend to do. Unless you hold every citizen of the US responsible for everything that the US government has done ever. In that case as I presume that you are a citizen of the UK if you ever get blow up by terrorists I'll be the first to run up to your still smouldering body and shout "HA HA YOU DESERVED IT!!!"

[Pinball]

No, I don't mean that. My criticisms are of the US government, not its people. Even a cynic would have to admit that the US government has somewhat capitalised on 911. Essentially, two wrongs don't make a right.

[ziggy starbucks]

Ah the old US deserved to have 3000 of its citizens murdered argument.

67 british were killed

which probably makes it the worst single incident for british deaths since the Herald of Free Enterprise sinking

in total some 370 non americans were killed. 

[Pinball]

And many of the 3,000 were muslim. The magnitude of the tragedy of 911 is not in dispute - it's the subsequent opportunistic and highly aggressive actions of the US government that are the issue.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

67 british were killed

which probably makes it the worst single incident for british deaths since the Herald of Free Enterprise sinking

in total some 370 non americans were killed. 

Okay, but my general point stands

And many of the 3,000 were muslim. The magnitude of the tragedy of 911 is not in dispute - it's the subsequent opportunistic and highly aggressive actions of the US government that are the issue.

No, SetToStun said "Public sponsorship of a terrorist group pretty much removes your right to whinge about terrorism. Wasps really shouldn't complain too loudly when they get stung."

Which is basically saying because of the some small sections of the US's population gave money to a front for Republican terrorist groups that somehow when the US got attacked by a totally different terrorist group for totally different reasons and innocent people who most likely had no part in funding any terrorist groups somehow deserved what they got. Then you quoted part of this, agreed with it, and then started going on about US domination in the world.

[Pinball]

I hope my clarification helped...

[P K Duck]

Okay... let's talk about innocence and blame on 9/11 then.

Bit of historical context for comparison: were we all suitably appauled when the State of Israel kidnapped and killed Adolf Eichmann?

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

No, I wasn't even born yet. But I don't see what you're comparing.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I was really disappointed that one of the guys responsible for the Holocaust was kidknapped from his quiet life in South America and brought to justice for his terrible, terrible crimes.

[ziggy starbucks]

Israel deserves to be destroyed because of its persecution of nazi war criminals

Once they stop that then maybe there is a chance for peace

[P K Duck]

So... what's the difference?


Okay... I admit that I am taking the official story at face-value right now... all apologies for the lack of common sense and all... but if we take the official explaination of 9/11 at face value, then what is the difference in real terms from the state of Israel kidnapping and executing a man who, completely legally, following direct orders, fulfilled his duty to his country, and 98% of the casualties on 9/11?

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

If you're really serious and need the answer explained to you then you're more of a twat then first thought.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Answer explained? Some of us need the bloody question explaining.

[Mister Six]

He's saying that you're a hypocrite if you're against the deaths of 3,000 civilians in a terrorist act, but for the trial and execution of a man who was responsible for genocide.

I mean, durrr, it's such an obvious thing to say! I can't believe you couldn't work it out for yourself.

[SetToStun]

Except the public support was by a tiny minority and Noraid was accused of being a front for the IRA by both the US and UK governments.

Perhaps a very small minority of the US population as a whole, I don't dispute that, but in its most active areas (North-Eastern US) it was huge.

And the point about both governments denouncing it is exactly what I was on about: the American public cannot claim to have thought it was a purely charitable organisation, yet they sponsored it anyway. They lost their innocence concerning terrorism when they were told what their money was doing but went on collecting for "the boys".

I'm not saying that the US deserved the 11th September attacks - no members of the public deserve such an awful death - but then again the innocent civilians of the UK didn't, either, and that didn't stop the Americans rattling their tins, did it?

I was only addressing the "loss of innocence" attitude of the Yanks. They had no innocence to lose. Everyone knew where the money and the Armalites were going and the biggest response was a public shrug.

[P K Duck]

Okay, let's have a look at this obvious stuff then.

When a government engages in wholesale criminality, how culpable are the citizens who elect it? Not at all, perhaps? When a corporation engages in wholesale criminality, how culpable are the governments or consumers who turn a blind eye to these proceedings? Not at all either, maybe.

We're not talking about abstract criminality either; what we're faced with on a global scale are acts of violence, theft, torture, slavery and mass murder, often to no more ends than increased profit. We are the beneficiaries of this systematic criminality to a small extent, more so if you are into financial games than not, but even so, as consumerism metastasises, we become more and more drawn into this wholly immoral situation.

Actually, it should read "what they're faced with", because over here we have some sort of self-exempt violence exclusion zone that is enforced rigorously. It's okay for us to level a city of civilians by starving them to death, but it's completely OTT when a single one of our citizens is injured,  or even threatened over here.

"Where's Madeleine?" is a good question, a similar one has been systematically asked in Iraq since the early 90's and the time we rolled back up in tanks, when about half a million children in the same age range died of malnutrition, during peace time, with the full blessing and understanding of the people over here issuing the sanctions that crippled the country. That works out at over 270 new Maddie's per day, every day, for ten years. Or, put it into World Trade Centre terrorist strikes, that equates to one such strike every month for ten years, with a few left over for special holiday seasons annually, all in terms of dead kids. And that's just the kids in one such afflicted country in one ten year period, a ten year period of no formal news coverage of the horror back here.

But kidnap one journalist...

"Are we responsible?" is the wrong question; "Are we exempt from similar atrocities?" is a better way to look at this madness.

Are we really exempt from the violence the rest of the World endures, often as a result of the global financial system that for the most part benefits us and only us?

[Still Not George]

Anyone paying attention to what's going on in the US Senate right now? Reid is forcing the Republicans to actually filibuster the Iraq withdrawal amendments his party are sponsoring - making them stay in all night and regularly moving to request the attendance of absent Senators. Finally the Dems actually making the Repubs follow through on their threats.