Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 03:41:02 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Preacherman!

Started by 23 Daves, November 06, 2007, 08:32:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

23 Daves

I had a horrendously badly delayed train journey on the way home tonight, made still more horrendous by the presence of a tremendously persistent bible-thumper in my carriage for the whole of the way home, who most people were busy trying to ignore. 

In this case, I must confess that I was partly the maker of my own misery.  I had my iPod in my pocket and could easily have popped it on from the very moment he said "I have a message I want to deliver to you all", but I didn't.  Not because I thought it would be rude, but because I was a bit bored and frustrated and thought I'd hear him out.  The bible is a very interesting tome after all - whether you agree with it or not, or believe in the central messages or otherwise, there's a lot to pick to pieces and analyse there.  He could have told me something I didn't know, or looked at an old story from a fresh angle, or been a bit witty about the silliness of modern life as we all veered away from his God.

My confidence in him was woefully misplaced, however.  He talked in a monotonous voice, repeating stock phrases in an utterly dreary fashion ("People are under the control of the devil", "you should take five minutes out of every day to thank God", "I was lost, but God spoke to me, he said I had to deliver the message to His people", etc. etc. ad nauseum) shuffled around a lot like he was embarrassed to be there, and was so negative and doomy he made me feel even worse than when I stepped on the train.  I'd heard so many bleak pronouncements within the twenty minutes I spent on the train that I almost felt like jumping under it rather than rushing home to "repent my sins", or thanking God for allowing this mumbling repetitive fuckwit a reasonable amount of my ear-time.  He was a fucking misery.

It got me thinking - if God really does want His message to be spread in this manner to the widest possible volume of people, why doesn't he start to talk to a few more people who are a bit more inspiring about doing his PR?  Because if they're not mumbling into their shoes about repenting at the moment, they're bellowing it at the tops of their voices like psychopaths.  Neither strikes me as a very effective method of recruitment, and I can't help but think it has a rather low strike rate.   The man on the train tonight, for instance, actually apologised and said "It is not easy for me to do this, but God has asked me to".  I felt very sorry for him then, and thought that was tremendously selfish of the almighty.  He'd clearly bullied a rather shy and stupid introvert into promoting his guidebook.  That's not the kind of God I want to worship.  I want to worship a God who can persuade Billy Connolly to wander out and about talking about all things biblical.

I considered scribbling "God thinks there are probably better ways of converting people than this - choose your path wisely, and reconsider" on a piece of card and handing it to him knowingly and wordlessly as I walked off the train to see what he did.  I may even get a load printed up and start giving them to more street preachers to see what they do.

Has anyone actually seen a decent street preacher out and about? One with charisma, one who delves into the bible and offers interesting interpretations, or one who is just entertaining?  And don't say the "Sinner or Winner" man, because he's an utter prick.

gmoney

The only street preacher I ever see waffles on about how homosexuality is unnatural and forbidden by God. People just seem to ignore him.

Artemis

Quote from: 23 Daves on November 06, 2007, 08:32:48 PM
It got me thinking - if God really does want His message to be spread in this manner to the widest possible volume of people, why doesn't he start to talk to a few more people who are a bit more inspiring about doing his PR?

Probably for the same reason he got people who aren't very good at writing books to write his book.

QuoteHas anyone actually seen a decent street preacher out and about? One with charisma, one who delves into the bible and offers interesting interpretations, or one who is just entertaining?

I used to be part of the evangelical crowd when I was a happy clappy and have been witness to hundreds of speakers. Most of them are benign and of the nastier type, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of them have some kind of mental problem, and I don't mean that in a nasty way but when you spend your primetime standing on soapbox in the high street screaming threats at people instead of spending it with your loved ones, you've got some issues.

The best Christian speaker I ever heard was a guy called Steve Chalke, who preached to the church more then the great unwashed, but he was very funny, engaging and insightful. Another quite good one is a fella called J.John. The latter's still doing his thing but I think Chalke is busy running his companies who do an admirable work for the homeless. Neither are 'street preachers', but I felt like adding that as much as I happen to believe that their beliefs are ill-thoughout, illinformed gibberish, there are some very good speakers out there. They do exist.

Marvin

Actually I'd second what Artemis just said, and although I left that sphere of the world as soon as I can I still have a lot of respect for Steve Chalke who's charities do a hell of a lot of social work around the world.

Pogue Mahone

Quote from: 23 Daves on November 06, 2007, 08:32:48 PM
Has anyone actually seen a decent street preacher out and about? One with charisma, one who delves into the bible and offers interesting interpretations, or one who is just entertaining?

Would this preacher fit the bill?

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=-gdREMz_w9I[/youtube]

Pogue Mahone

Just on that video; I find there to be something rather deceitful about the parliament removing bronze nudes from the lobby for fear of offending the Pope. Another thing; for a democratic chamber of parlance, the response to Paisley's notified outburst seems extreme. He had a poster snatched from his hands and torn to shreds, had documents thrown at him from across the room, was ordered to leave and was eventually dragged out after being punched without the intervention of security, all while the European upholders of free speech applauded his removal.

SetToStun

I've never seen a good one, I'm afraid. I've seen a couple of right bonkers ones and they can be entertaining enough but just lately I've been plagued by a rather rubbish one. She gets on the train at Limehouse, waits for the door to shut and then starts "witnessing". Trouble is she seems to either be winging it (and failing) or getting massive stage fright and fluffing her lines. Annoying as she is (and she is annoying - I hate captive tactics like that), I can't help feeling a little sorry for her. Actually, I love 23 Daves' idea for the little cards - I might get some done just for the next time she inflicts herself on me.

Viero_Berlotti

We have a rash of Mormon missionaries from America on the streets of South Manchester at the minute.

They're freaky as fuck, young, blond, blue eyed American males all dressed in the Mormon uniform of black suit, white shirt, black tie, with name badges pinned to their lapels. They also carry bibles strapped to their belts in weird "bible holsters". I feel sorry for them in a way, trying to convert grumpy Mancs to the ways of the Mormon church. I've only ever seen people telling them to fuck off.

They also have the habit of approaching people on the bus to talk about their beliefs. On one occasion I overheard one of them trying to convert this woman. She soon made it clear however that she was a staunch Catholic and had just arrived back from a religious trip to Lourdes and the Vatican. "What's Lourdes and where is the Vatican?" asked the Mormon in all seriousness. The woman then turned the tables on him and tried to convert him to Catholicism. It was funny to hear the panic in his voice, as someone started to lay a doctrine on him he was completely ignorant of, it just wasn't part of the script.

CaledonianGonzo

During my finals at University, the common room of one of the student unions was hired out for a fortnight by an American evangelical church as a base of operations, and they spent the daylight hours patrolling the campus with fliers and missionary megaphones. 

During sunny weather, everyone studying in the library would decant outside at lunchtime to sit on the lawn and get some fresh air, usually to be met by these goons with their loudhailers declaiming them for sinners and heathens.  This unfailingly lead to good hour's worth of entertainment involving heckling, jeering and thrown fruit.

The plot thickened as it transpired that the prime preaching spot was right outside an exam hall, and so the lunchtime sermons were actually interfering with the concentration of those sitting exams.  This was brought to a head one lunchtime when the police were called by University security, who dispatched the preachers into the back of the meatwagon and drove them off to the nick on a breach of the peace complaint, to the massed applause of a good 800 or so students.

boxofslice

There are a few who get up on a box on Saturday in my town and start preaching (not sure what part of the christian sect they are) and it all seems to be pretty negative stuff, all sinners this and going to hell that. It not without its amusement though as the only crowd they gather are 10 year old boys with skateboards calling them 'wankers'.


jaydee81

I was delighted recently to see the world famous Oxford Street preacher had returned... although looking sheepish, sans megaphone, with only a handful of leaflets to his name...

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: Pogue Mahone on November 07, 2007, 03:15:32 AM
He had a poster snatched from his hands and torn to shreds, had documents thrown at him from across the room, was ordered to leave and was eventually dragged out after being punched without the intervention of security, all while the European upholders of free speech applauded his removal.

  I'm not surprised.  If you read the weekly news letter of the National Secular Society there are occasional reports about the Society's engagement with Europe on matters of faith and religion.  There was a great one a while ago when some NSS types were invited to attend a Council For Europe conference about the role of faith.

  Essentially, the only people sent proper diplomats as opposed to bored junior civil servants were the Catholic countries who were unused to people openly criticising catholicism and the idea that "more faith" was an inherently good thing.  So the speakers get up and praise some bishop who was attending and one after the other they all agreed that it was a jolly good thing that people were more interested in Religion.  Then the NSS blokes get up and point out that church attendences are still falling and that THIS is a good thing because organised religion has been behind pretty much every roadblock to political progress for the last 1000 years and that even today the Catholic church is a force for evil in the world.

  Needless to say, a number of delegates were none too pleased.

  The point is that while we might look at that video and think Paisley's a bit of a prick but fully entitled to his opinion a lot of european countries simply don't have anti-clericalism or anti-papism as part of their political dialogue.  In the 1980's Paisley must have seemed like he was from Mars.

23 Daves

Quote from: Viero_Berlotti on November 07, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
They also have the habit of approaching people on the bus to talk about their beliefs. On one occasion I overheard one of them trying to convert this woman. She soon made it clear however that she was a staunch Catholic and had just arrived back from a religious trip to Lourdes and the Vatican. "What's Lourdes and where is the Vatican?" asked the Mormon in all seriousness. The woman then turned the tables on him and tried to convert him to Catholicism. It was funny to hear the panic in his voice, as someone started to lay a doctrine on him he was completely ignorant of, it just wasn't part of the script.


We've had a few on the tube in London, desperately trying to make eye contact with people and engage them in conversation.  The trouble is, as any fool know, that's nigh on impossible to do on a train in this city. They just get stonewalled all the time, or else told to piss off.

Two mormons once knocked on my door right at the point where I was starting to watch the video to "Run Christian Run" by the Super Furry Animals (where a bunch of reasons why the bible is dated nonsense are all listed on screen). I was tempted to invite them in for a chat about it, but they probably wouldn't have seen it as a coincidence and would have doubtless thought that the Lord sent them at that precise moment to save me, so I decided against it.  Too much hassle.

All Surrogate

In Walsall you sometimes get a little group with a display saying "god saves" or something, trying to hand out leaflets; not particularly vociferous.  But just a few days ago, walking home through the centre, I heard screaming, and managed to make out something about god; rounding a corner I saw it was someone, bible gripped in one hand, the other hand held by what I presume was a friend, shrieking about god to the buildings around, and then falling into what she must've thought was 'tongues'.  Mania, madness, hysteria; I was witnessing god.

Artemis

In Melbourne on one occasion I was there, a herd (what would the plural be?) of preachers had set themselves up directly opposite a line of families queuing up to get into an exhibition shortly before christmas. They were actually using megaphones to pick out people in the line they thought looked particularly sinful and warn them of their eternal damnation in front of their children. I was outraged, and that's a pretty rare thing for me. I knew there was no hope of engaging them in rational conversation, so I instead wrote to the council who seemed to sympathise with me but cited freedom of speach. Doesn't venemous hate speech and cold threats supercede freedom of speach, though? Some of the kids looked genuinely afraid.

Another preacher in the same town during the same period was standing up on a soapbox and had set up a microphone and an amplifier and was challenging anyone to prove to him that God didn't exist. I was very sorely tempted but figured if he didn't understand from the outset that being unable to prove a negative in no way adds credence to the existence of the positive, and that the onus on proof is on the affirmative in any argument, then arguing with him would be a lost cause.

El Unicornio, mang

There's an American bloke who stands in Newcastle city centre opposite HMV every Saturday, preaching his nonsense with a megaphone. Everyone just ignores him. I'd wager he's probably been sparked out by charvers on more than one occasion though.

Mister Six

I once saw a man and wife preacher set walking up Albion Street in Leeds, preaching away about how everyone should repent, etc, followed by their two young sons (about 11-13 years old) pulling a giant fuck-off wooden crucifix. Seriously: two big bits of wood hammered together, probably eight feet tall.

Borboski

I think I mentioned before, I had a long conversation with a couple of door knockers once - ending with one of them admitting that, yes, he did in fact that that misery of wealthy people was more important to God than misery of "those chavs in Longsight, you know what they're like"... anyway, it ended with them saying if I went with them they would prove the existence of God.  Can't help feeling regret that I didn't go with them, ah well they probably would have made me do some mad sex tricks.

Viero_Berlotti

Yeah I had a couple of Jehova's Witnesses knock on the door once, with whom I engaged with rather than slamming the door in their faces. They showed my a badly drawn picture, a scene of modern warfare, explosions, death, tanks and soldiers.

One of then said "Look at this, why do you think there are more wars now then there ever used to be in ancient days? It is because God is angry with us..."

To which I replied "That's not true though, there are probably no more wars now than there ever has been. It just that with global communication we are more aware of what is happening all over the world. News of conflicts on the other side of the globe are reported to us on a daily basis. It just seems like there is more war. Humankind have always fought with each other, it's in our nature".

The Jehova's Witnesses looked at each other and then one of them said "That's a good answer. But let me leave you with this copy of Watch-Tower magazine. Read it and we will come back next week, and see if you feel the same".

Needless to say the Watch-Tower magazine went straight in the bin, and the Jehova's Witnesses never called again.

Artemis

I've always had a problem with the JW's because that's always been their approach. They try to bond with you over a common bleak outlook and distrust of the world. I guess salvation won't work unless you accept there's something to be saved from, but I'd prefer a different approach so that when I shut the door and shake my head, I can think that at least they were trying to cheer me up with some good news rather then make me afraid. It's a good technique to simply disagree with their most basic of premises though - in my experience if you take that line it leaves them with nowhere to turn.

JW: Isn't life awful?
ME: Not really, I'm quite happy, all things considered.
JW: But look at all the misery - suffering, war, disease, famine....
ME: Things are better then they were... we're getting there.
JW: Are you afraid of what will happen when you die?
ME: Nope
JW: The bible says-
ME: -I don't acept the bible as an authority on anything though
JW: ........ oh. Erm... please have a leaflet.
ME: No thanks. Bye!

falafel

Yeah, I do agree there. My one encounter with the Witnesses was a couple of old ladies who came to my door and started going on about how "well, don't you feel as though things are really coming to a head at the moment?" - it's always very hard when people talk like that not to say things like "Well, look, surely it doesn't matter, because the world ended just over thirty-two years ago. This is actually hell. Your edition of 'Watchtower' is wrong."

El Unicornio, mang

I got Jehovah's Witnesses doing a drive-by preaching when I was waiting for the bus the other week. Literally, they drove next to me, slowed down a bit and practically threw the leaflet at me. The bloke next to me picked it up and threw it away then went on about Jesus and killing a man who stole his bag.

non capisco

Quote from: jaydee81 on November 07, 2007, 12:35:09 PM
I was delighted recently to see the world famous Oxford Street preacher had returned... although looking sheepish, sans megaphone, with only a handful of leaflets to his name...

An acquaintance of mine says she once saw him doing his catchphrase in Spain. You go on holiday and you still can't escape from the fucker.

The Widow of Brid

Catalogue actually was a Jehovah's Witness for a while* when he was in his twenties. I shall get him to post his horror stories presently.




*He got better.

Artemis

Quote from: Mrs Trousers on November 07, 2007, 11:03:55 PM
Catalogue actually was a Jehovah's Witness for a while* when he was in his twenties. I shall get him to post his horror stories presently.

Ooh, I'd be quite interested to read that, actually. Life from the other side of the door.


Pogue Mahone

Quote from: Mr. Analytical on November 07, 2007, 12:50:58 PM
  I'm not surprised.  If you read the weekly news letter of the National Secular Society there are occasional reports about the Society's engagement with Europe on matters of faith and religion.  There was a great one a while ago when some NSS types were invited to attend a Council For Europe conference about the role of faith.

  Essentially, the only people sent proper diplomats as opposed to bored junior civil servants were the Catholic countries who were unused to people openly criticising catholicism and the idea that "more faith" was an inherently good thing.  So the speakers get up and praise some bishop who was attending and one after the other they all agreed that it was a jolly good thing that people were more interested in Religion.  Then the NSS blokes get up and point out that church attendences are still falling and that THIS is a good thing because organised religion has been behind pretty much every roadblock to political progress for the last 1000 years and that even today the Catholic church is a force for evil in the world.

  Needless to say, a number of delegates were none too pleased.

  The point is that while we might look at that video and think Paisley's a bit of a prick but fully entitled to his opinion a lot of european countries simply don't have anti-clericalism or anti-papism as part of their political dialogue.  In the 1980's Paisley must have seemed like he was from Mars.

As you're probably well aware, the debate is on-going and the proposed and failed EU Constitution was at its centre most recently. Those of strong Christian traditions sought for constitutional recognition of Europe's "Christian heritage and past", while the secularists wished for a document absent of religious jargon, seeking to keep Europe's piety in the past, or at least demote it to a position of private practice.

The members of the parliament who reacted physically to Paisley's protest were as much to blame for exacerbating the disturbance as Paisley was himself for igniting it. A fairer treatment would have been to let him ramble on - I'm sure he'd eventually have fizzled out and maintained a silent protest - or else, they should have had those who attacked him thrown out alongside him. Despite his little protest's inevitable impotence, it was certainly a courageous stand. He was always going to be looked upon as some sort of raving lunatic. However, Paisley has undoubtedly toned himself down in recent years and has recently been seen involving himself in formerly-unspeakable activities, such as publically shaking hands with Bertie Ahern in Dublin or sharing jokes with Martin McGuinness in Stormont. His political and religious opening or transformation has been astonishing. In the 1960s, for example, he went as far as organising a protest-march against the lowering of the Union Jack on Belfast's City Hall to mark the death of Pope John XXIII. Yet, upon the death of Pope John Paul II, he stated: "We can understand how Roman Catholics feel at the death of the Pope and we would want in no way to interfere with their expression of sorrow and grief at this time."

The following, from Paisley's Wikipedia page, is rather funny:

Quote from: WikipediaKnown for a sense of humour, at an early meeting with [Bertie] Ahern at the Irish embassy in London, Paisley requested breakfast and asked for boiled eggs; when Ahern asked him why he had wanted boiled eggs, Paisley quipped "it would be hard for you to poison them", much to Ahern's amusement.

Paisley, an ardent teetotaller all his life, has sometimes asked journalists and nationalist politicians "let me smell your breath" when they asked him tough questions, insinuating that they had taken on board some alcohol, or "devil's buttermilk" as he often puts it.

I once came across a claim on one of his websites that the seat numbered 666 was left free at the European parliament, in reservation for the anti-Christ, of course, although I've never been able to confirm that the seat is actually left vacant.

23 Daves

Quote from: non capisco on November 07, 2007, 11:00:22 PM
An acquaintance of mine says she once saw him doing his catchphrase in Spain. You go on holiday and you still can't escape from the fucker.

The Sinner or Winner man - if his version of events is to be believed - is the son of the owner of the Liptons supermarket chain (Verbwhores in their late twenties and early thirties may remember this.  It was basically like Co-op or Tesco Express stores are now).  He grew up with enormous wealth but "gave it all up for God".

All this is fine, but that does conflict with his other tale of being a "hard working class scouser" who knows how to handle himself when anyone corrects him or yells things at him.  He's either the son of a multi-millionaire or he's a tough street boy - I don't care which is the truth, I just wish he'd make up his fucking mind.

jaydee81

The Sinner or Winner guy is one of those people that is initially funny until you realise how tragic the human condition is...

Notlob2

Quote from: Borboski on November 07, 2007, 09:09:53 PM
I think I mentioned before, I had a long conversation with a couple of door knockers once - ending with one of them admitting that, yes, he did in fact that that misery of wealthy people was more important to God than misery of "those chavs in Longsight, you know what they're like"... anyway, it ended with them saying if I went with them they would prove the existence of God.  Can't help feeling regret that I didn't go with them, ah well they probably would have made me do some mad sex tricks.

It's not like you to pass up a win-win situation.