Author Topic: Art criticism  (Read 1147 times)

Still Not George

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Art criticism
« on: November 07, 2007, 12:15:07 AM »
So, as a result of me making myself vastly unpopular by having the gall, the sheer gall to disagree with people on one of the other threads on here, I managed to stir up this response (amongst others):

Set up another fucking thread to discuss this if you want to be a cock, Nyarrrrrrrrrlathotep. At the very least post something which you think might be better.

Shorn of the childish personal attack, Helvetica has a point; the discussion wasn't really about the mongs I was criticising any more, but more about whether I had the right to criticise them at all. Now setting aside the double standards involved (the, er, indescribable TC Raymond had just posted a couple of weak 'shops and been rightly panned for them) this is a good point.

From my perspective, this boils down to two issues. Firstly, I maintain that I have the absolute and inalienable right to post what the fuck I like here, as long as I'm not breaking the rules of the board or pissing off the mods sufficiently to warrant action. Clearly I'm not doing either of those things, so telling me what I can or can't say on any given thread is just cuntery anyway. Challenge me on the actual substance of it if you like, but don't tell me I'm not allowed to say it, because you're fucking wrong. You could probably convince me as regards the second bit I'm about to get to, but this first I am not budging on.

Secondly, it occurs to me that we've had this argument before. In Comedy Chat, to be precise - the argument being, are you allowed to criticise something if you're not willing or able to produce something of that ilk yourself? The idea that you're not allowed to criticise a comedy show until you've made one of your own is rightly dismissed as a stupid one. Why is criticising photoshops on here any different?
Let's put it another way. What possible benefit is there to purely positive responses to anything? If someone's not firing on all cylinders, they're probably aware of it, but it doesn't help them to just applaud and cheer them on in that context.

I do have a bit more to say about this, but I think I'll leave it at that for the moment (at least partly because I'm tired and have work in the morning). So, what do people think? Is it OK to criticise the mongs on here, or should people keep schtum?

Beagle 2

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Re: Art criticism
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2007, 12:20:17 PM »
Course you can criticise stuff, but I will say you have to consider the context. If I go and scream abuse at a footballer for being shite when he's obviously a thousand percent better than I'll ever be it's because he's getting paid a lot of money and he's been considered good enough to play for a club I've invested a lot of time and money in. I wouldn't do it down the park watching some 14-year-olds. If I massively slag off art, it's usually because not only is it not very good, but it's got critics swooning and large amounts of cash being thrown at it. So I'd say the tone of criticism shouldn't go over the top for what are five minute photoshops in a dead forum, unless they really are genuinely offensive.

And to be honest the "do better yourself then" argument holds a little more sway here as they really don't have to be very professionally done to raise a smile, practically anyone can knock a quick one up.

Hank_Kingsley

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Re: Art criticism
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2007, 01:01:25 PM »
It's a free country innit? I say criticise all you want, just don't be surprised if people call you a cunt.
Which you don't seem so surprised about, so...what's the big deal?

Why not...start up some challenge threads and see if people respond to them? Or just send some abusive PMs to the people whose work you don't like and keep the heated debate away from the threads themselves?

As the man said, context. Is any of this really worth getting riled up about? There's so much beauty out there...

Still Not George

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Re: Art criticism
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2007, 01:17:20 PM »
Why not...start up some challenge threads and see if people respond to them? Or just send some abusive PMs to the people whose work you don't like and keep the heated debate away from the threads themselves?

As the man said, context. Is any of this really worth getting riled up about? There's so much beauty out there...
And this leads me to the next part of what I was going to say about this. If you look on the thread in question, what was I actually getting angry about? The mongs themselves, or the seemingly endless supply of people willing to yell at me for daring to criticise them?

(It's worth mentioning, though perhaps a little off the topic, that the original reason I responded so negatively to the pictures that started all this is because I inferred a lazy racist stereotype in one of the pictures, which Beagle 2 was kind enough to explain wasn't his intention at all. It still wasn't particularly funny, but it didn't deserve the vitriol I gave it. But that apparently wasn't enough for the self-appointed Defenders of Mongworld.)

See, people keep throwing analogies around about this - criticising 15 year olds on the field, or being given a present - that don't really bear any resemblance to what's happening. The people posting their work here aren't 15, are they? And it's not their live, present peers I'm criticising them in front of. Same with the present thing - it really doesn't have any bearing on this, does it? And I can't help but think these analogies keep coming up because people simply Don't Want Criticism, but can't think of a rational reason why.

Finally, I resent being blamed for leading a thread off-topic when I've let other people have the last word repeatedly, and yet other posters keep wading in to fan the flames (possibly because they feel I've not been castigated enough yet). And then more posters turn up and drag the thread even more off-topic by posting how terrible it is that all of this discussion is ruining a good arts thread, instead of doing the sane and clever thing and letting the fucking argument die.
Quite simply, if I'm being attacked or blamed for something I'm going to respond, and frankly I have the right to. If you keep the damn thing going by wading in, however, you are responsible for the thread rot that results. Not me.

This is about the third time this has happened when I've disagreed with the majority opinion in a thread on here, and all 3 of those times have been in the past year. My posting style hasn't changed, so I can only conclude that it's you fuckers that are the problem. So if you have an issue with something I have to say, feel free to yell at me for it; but don't tell me I can't say it, or that I shouldn't be "ruining the thread" with my disgusting, hate-filled opinions. This is a discussion board. Discussion is thus never wrong.

Re: Art criticism
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 06:49:29 PM »
I certainly don't subscribe to the 'if you cant do something better you can't criticise line of thought', I just think you should have been more polite and not have whined when people reacted badly to what you said. I totally understand where you were coming from but the way you said it was wrong in my opinion.

Vitalstatistix

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Re: Art criticism
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 08:17:10 PM »
Just had a look and hah! Jesus you really dragged that thread off topic dintcha :)

You said:

"What a load of tedious wank."

and people called you a twat, and rightly so. Of course you can criticise art, but if you're a twat about it then people will call you a twat!

Still Not George

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Re: Art criticism
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 08:44:28 PM »
The whole thing started because I mistakenly thought Beagle was making some kind of Pinball-esque lazy racist comment. Hence "What a load of tedious wank." That argument's over halfway down the next page when Beagle explained that he didn't mean any racist undertones at all, and I accepted it there and then (while maintaining that it was a bit of a weak joke anyway, and he agreed). What then followed was 1 page of The Shoulders?-Stomach! Show, then 2 pages of The TC Raymond Show closely followed by yet more people blaming me for leading the fucking thread off-topic by daring to post a negative opinion about photoshops. That part I'll fucking whine about until my fingers fall off.