Author Topic: Indie but not really  (Read 2767 times)

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2008, 12:47:43 PM »
Anytime I see someone mention 'soapboxes' though, I'm angry that they couldn't think of a better point to undermine something they disagree with.

Are you saying that the concept of an 'indie hipster' is false? Everybody posting in this thread, like it or not, is setting out their stall as outside-the-box, better than the ignorants, me included. Even just saying something as mind-numbingly facile as 'just enjoy the music you like and forget about the peripherals' is defining yourself as 'outside the alternative mainstream'!

If you're very passionate about music, you're going to be a twat about it sometimes. Accept that. All those nights when you bored some poor sod about your latest fad? That's you being a music twat, that's what happens when you're passionate about something. Occasionally someone will have something interesting to say to you in response. Likewise, listening to Klaxons because you enjoy being part of the scene is a twat thing to do but so what? The music is only a part of that overall experience. It's impossible to separate music from context. Get used to twats and being a twat over what you love.

Well, I agree with that.

If anything, the point I was getting at is that I'm really tired of people making the same tedious points over and over "NME hipster bla bla sheep bla Pete Doherty bla bla" because that isn't how it is. "Hipsters" do exist, of course, but when hasn't there been people like that? 

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2008, 12:49:07 PM »
Well, yes, I agree with that!

samadriel

  • Afro Gunsou wa Afro!
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2008, 12:53:46 PM »
'Alternative' music seems to be more appropriate for acts like 'The Strokes'.
Now there's a phrase you won't hear often.

When it comes to crap 'snippets of conversation' lyrics, as mentioned in the initial post, I can't go past that "haven't you ever heard of closing the goddamn door" shit.  I can't do justice to the sheer inanity of that thing with mere words.

I wonder if modern popular music really is as overwhelmingly shit as the rubbish I'm being pelted with from my radio these days, or if I'm just becoming more nostalgic, and will find the same old ratio of goodness/shitness when I look back upon today from the future.  Still, pretty much any CD I'll buy from the current era will be released by a band/artist who had at least established themselves by the mid-90s -- the charts and internet and street press are flooded with nothing but NME-courting sewage that I wouldn't shit on were they aflame.  It's all very disappointing, but I suppose one of the comforting things about recorded music is that, if the current era isn't satisfying you, there's still the nigh-endless library of the past for you to mine.

What a pointless post.  Now for some Killing Joke!

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2008, 12:54:49 PM »
Sadly for old music to get a mention in the modern music press, they either have to be covered, get listed in a greatest poll, be involved in scandal, Die or release a best of for the Christmas market.  With an example of Jonny Cash, nobody cared about his American recording in the mainstream until he popped it.

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2008, 12:56:01 PM »
New music is important, but not just because it's new. Old music can be just as relevant, and is often vastly better than all the bands everyone in here is complaining about. I don't always feel connected to new music purely because it's written now and therefore about now. Personally I'm quite happy to miss out on a bit of current indie nonsense so that I can discover a wealth of music that is completely new to me and utterly brilliant. That doesn't seem dead to me. Personally I hate the way the radio/tv is constantly trying to promote and go on about new music, when all the new bands they plug aren't new in the slightest musically.

Well, that's why you'll one day miss out on something great. If you're happy with that - that's absolutely fine, I can understand being satisfied working through decades of great music, but it's not enough for me.

It's just about concisely separating the bullshit from reality; more specifically the media hype bullshit from the actual talent, which isn't very easy - especially in this day and age. I'm happy to do that though, because music that correlates to the here and now and feels alive and exciting is unparalleled.

Famous Mortimer

  • War - it's fantastic!
    • International Syndicate of Cult Film Critics
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2008, 01:00:56 PM »
I'm happy to do that though, because music that correlates to the here and now and feels alive and exciting is unparalleled.
Don't give a stuff about the here and now, and music that feels alive and exciting could be from any time.

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2008, 01:18:07 PM »
When it comes to crap 'snippets of conversation' lyrics, as mentioned in the initial post, I can't go past that "haven't you ever heard of closing the goddamn door" shit.  I can't do justice to the sheer inanity of that thing with mere words.

Hah, yes, they are unspeakably shit. But what's interesting about emo is that it's pretty much spat on but anybody over the age of 16, when in fact it probably has more going for it right now than the current UK indie scene (where those two bleed into each other, I don't know, and I don't want to think about it or I'll bleed from my brain). Essentially, it's all crap - except for My Chemical Romance. Yes, here I go again. But they are great, and they're great for a truly unique reason - it's theatrical comedy music. Ironically, they're seen as the most po-faced pompous band out there, but they're actually extremely entertaining because they don't just piddle in melodramatics like their emo ilk (though they do disassociate themselves from emo), they really, really go for it.      The fact that they're Queen without the talent doesn't matter, I just love the fact that it sounds like they want to (literally) be the biggest band in the world, but they're so far off. They're stretching the talent and skill they have to its absolute limit and it's really pleasurable and funny to listen to. They do raise a point about comedy in music, too - why should laughing at music be less pleasurable or valued than earnestly chin-stroking or being seriously moved by it? I know of one other person who would agree with much of what I've written above who enjoys the unintentional comedy of some 'bad' music quite genuinely, and I don't mean going to fancy dress and dancing to Agadoo like it's classical. This is probably another thread, though. 

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2008, 01:18:44 PM »
Don't give a stuff about the here and now, and music that feels alive and exciting could be from any time.

Maybe, but it's different.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2008, 01:29:15 PM »
I'm always slightly optimistic about new bands that I haven't heard of, because of the anticipation of the possibility of what Cack Hen said - music that correlates to the here and now and feels alive and everything. I admit, though, if I recieve the smallest bit of information that could lead me to doubt that it might be the next innovate genre of music, I've already forgotten it and have now begun searching for some older music from greater eras to satisfy me in the meantime. Also, I disagree with you, Cack Hen, in that if you start pursuing older music that it will keep your eye off the ball, in terms of burgeoning new and possibly great music. I desperately want some fresh kick-ass cynical music scene but there isn't one - at least to my knowledge there isn't - and as a rabid music fan, I gotta have something to placate my yearning until it does come and I will be keeping a constant lookout for it.

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2008, 01:33:07 PM »
Well of course I don't dismiss old music. 85% of what I listen to is pre 21st century.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2008, 01:37:30 PM »
It's this you said in response to Thugler's post.

Well, that's why you'll one day miss out on something great..

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2008, 01:38:49 PM »
Yes, because he was dismissing new music.

How does that mean I dismiss old music?

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2008, 01:41:52 PM »
No, sorry, sorry, forgot to put in the post - I didn't mean to say that you were, it's just that when you're pursuing older music, you won't necessarily miss out on any potiental big-ass scene or whatever. I mean, I won't.

Gotta go, now. late for economics

Cack Hen

  • HAI ILU
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2008, 01:52:48 PM »
Yeah, it doesn't have to be one or the other, but I think certain attitudes have a negative impact.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2008, 01:54:34 PM »
Yes, because he was dismissing new music.

Not really. All I was saying is that when a lot of new music is shite, theres no need to worry about it because theres always old music to discover which is likely far more important. I wasn't saying that all new music is rubbish or anything, I listen to plenty, but I'm not convinced of the 'it's being produced now, therefore it's more important/relevant/original' because it's often just not true.

I've come across a lot of these kind of snobby attitudes to older music, and it does get in the way of people discovering new (to them) music.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2008, 01:57:50 PM »
Love the 'mid-life crisis at 15' comment.

To go back to Mindbear and EdRec, yep, I didn't mention Oizo because he's always done his own thing and existed outside of any norms and standards. I'm actually very happy he's done some stuff on the label and done some shows with them because he annihilates virtually everyone else and shows them up for the musical charlatans they've become. I suppose he's only really there because they've given him the chance to put his music out with some serious promotional clout behind it, without daring to tamper with what he does.

As for SebastiAn, the Smoking Kills EP was actually '04, Ross Ross Ross EP eventually came out this year. He's done one track for an EdRec 7", 'H.A.L.' which is pretty basic stuff but a stylistic experiment at least. He also did 'Greel' for the EdRecVol2 compilation which I think is a little bit lazy for him and probably rushed out for the comp but still pretty devastating when you're in the right mood. So, eight tracks in three years...however, he's done about fifteen or twenty bloody brilliant remixes in that time. Worth hearing every single one.

Well, Oizo was going his own thing regardless of anything else for years before the obsession with french electro started, and he wasn't on the Daft Punk bandwagon, so he's pretty much out there on his own.

I do have all that stuff by SebastiAn, I thought you meant he'd been going previously to Smoking Kills and I thought i'd been missing out. Looking forward to an album very much, it'll hopefully be what I expected Boyz Noise to be. If you have liked all this stuff you would have loved my boss's club, he has had SebastiAn over several times, although not in the last three years. I'm looking forward to the kids deciding they don't like french electro, or this stupid mythical genre that is new rave, then maybe things will go back to normal.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2008, 03:32:34 PM »
Bearing in mind that I'll never go to London, what's the club? I actually saw him a month or so ago at 'Prostitutes and Policemen' in Manchester. That's the worst club name I've ever heard in my life. It was literally full to the brim with absolute knobheads. There was one especially annoying customer wearing all day-glo clothes and a trucker's cap holding a piece of cardboard which said 'YEAH?!' on it which he would thrust into people's faces when the beat dropped. The night also suffered from that incredibly cringeworthy thing where towards the end, loads of people try to huddle round the back behind the DJ to pretend they're in his clique or something. No offence but it especially annoys me when promoters stand there not dancing just looking out with a smug expression. I've hardly been to many clubs since Bugged Out finished @ Nation, Liverpool and I'm quite happy, they're full of intolerable tossers trying to push you out of the way to take wobbly pictures on their camera phone.

Despite that, the music was absolutely devastating and I had some great dancing fun with a couple of delightful Indian girls.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2008, 03:52:11 PM »
Bearing in mind that I'll never go to London, what's the club? I actually saw him a month or so ago at 'Prostitutes and Policemen' in Manchester. That's the worst club name I've ever heard in my life. It was literally full to the brim with absolute knobheads. There was one especially annoying customer wearing all day-glo clothes and a trucker's cap holding a piece of cardboard which said 'YEAH?!' on it which he would thrust into people's faces when the beat dropped. The night also suffered from that incredibly cringeworthy thing where towards the end, loads of people try to huddle round the back behind the DJ to pretend they're in his clique or something. No offence but it especially annoys me when promoters stand there not dancing just looking out with a smug expression. I've hardly been to many clubs since Bugged Out finished @ Nation, Liverpool and I'm quite happy, they're full of intolerable tossers trying to push you out of the way to take wobbly pictures on their camera phone.

Despite that, the music was absolutely devastating and I had some great dancing fun with a couple of delightful Indian girls.

His club was, and is called And Did We Mention Our Disco. It suffered in the end from exactly what you're talking about. Dickheads that are there not because they love the music, but because they think it's cool. I find that whole huddling thing ridiculous as well, especially when they look at your like you're scum when you approach the dj, who is just your mate to say you're going home and they look at your like you're a div because you've dared to go near the booth. Actually, I remember when Soulwax did that big night at Canvas about three years ago, and there were girls standing behind them with no AAA passes, just a pair of tits, saying they were their girlfriends, and standing all over their records in their silly spike heels. I hate girls a lot of the time, they act in a way that demands no respect! Talking of bugged out, one of the dj's from Our Disco does a lot of stuff at bugged out, Nadia Ksabia, and Erol Alkan does as well, and he used to dj at my main night. Clubland is a small world!

Do you know when a SebastiAn album is on the cards? That'll be a treat!

olafr

    • MySpazz
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2008, 04:18:18 PM »

Sax/Bass/Drums trio Back Door originally released their first album on their own label in '74.

The early 1970s spawned an amazing amount of privately pressed, small run folk(y) albums in the UK. It's a whole 'scene' in itself.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2008, 05:16:03 PM »
His club was, and is called And Did We Mention Our Disco.

I've never been there but heard good things a few years ago, in fact I think they were one of the first to host Justice, weren't they? I used to subscribe to their podcast for a short while but after enjoying one the rest annoyed me in exactly the same way that fluokids and the like did, it seemed like much more of a scene thing than a music thing. Perhaps I'm wrong, just what I heard from a few people and from where the music started to go.

In fact, fluokids could be the mp3 blog I hate more than any other. It's the combination of really stylised photos of really stylised annoying-faced girls, a gradual imbalance of posts about clothes and music, a constant championing of their fuckwit imitator mates and ultimately the whole graphical style of the site. It just looked like a jacket someone would wear to a Klaxons gig.

I know exactly what you mean about DJ-booth limpets, too. I personally don't get it though at all, instead of dancing and enjoying yourself, you'd rather get the most minor reflected glory by pretending to be acquaintances with a DJ?! The mind boggles...I guess they're there for a very different reason to me.

As for Nadia Ksabia, I hear she's great. I remember getting one of my friends from the Daft Crew forum in a real panic after I jokingly suggested he only bigged her up all the time because he fancied her (he was an acquaintance), you know, real childish stuff! Turns out she apparently lurked on that forum because it was always full of obsessive French house nerds and hence bang up to date. Anyway the guy sent me some pretty scathing message to take the message down or he'd have me killed or something! Recently I found out from a guy on here that a band he plays in part-time (Duloks) have a song named after this chap (P.M.D.). Small, small world indeed...

As for a SebastiAn album, I've still no idea. Busy P posts on another French forum I go to sporadically but no mention of anything for a while. All I've heard is 'sometime this year'. I also can't stand to look there too often ebcause of the enormous animated Daft Punk gifs and people asking questions ranging from 'What's Thomas' wife's bra size?' and 'Hey guys, has anyone heard of this group Le Knight Club?'

Yes, I'm a twat, as I admitted earlier.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2008, 05:18:22 PM »
This exemplifies for me how far EdRec has fallen...


alan nagsworth

  • aka the mollusk
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2008, 06:11:25 PM »
Give me an example anybody heralding Pete Doherty as an important, controversial, cultural figure as a result of tabloids chasing his car and taking photos of him. Nobody cares.

But you know what people do care about? Pete Doherty's music.

I didn't at any point say he was most famous for being in the news on heroin all the time. I was making a point that a lot of people hold bands like Babyshambles, Arctic Monkeys and The View as the official counter-culture, somehow holding the belief that they are rock n' roll excess for the new millennium. Maybe drink and debauchery was cool because it was genuinely shocking back in the 70's, but no one gives a toss about that sort of thing any more. People view Keith Harris and Shane McGowan in some kind of godly 'how is he still alive?' limelight, but that crap doesn't cut the mustard anymore, it's old hat for everyone except kids who don't know about the older music scenes.

Quote
Nobody's rebelling. It's sold to us as rebellion, but nobody buys that. Not really.

That was an over-statement, much like most of my post ... and most things I say in general actually. I'm an angry young man.

alan nagsworth

  • aka the mollusk
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2008, 06:13:37 PM »
This exemplifies for me how far EdRec has fallen...

TC would be turning in his grave. I feel filthy for enjoying the Justice album so much, what the fuck is wrong with these peoples' brains?

Don_Preston

  • You should have bought me the truck, you fuck!
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2008, 06:24:06 PM »
People view Keith Harris and Shane McGowan in some kind of godly 'how is he still alive?' limelight.

"I can't fly"
"You can!"

alan nagsworth

  • aka the mollusk
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2008, 06:30:53 PM »
Ohhh bollocks! Keith Richards I mean.


That is hilarious.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2008, 08:53:30 PM »
Keith Richards and Cuddles is an equally arresting image.

Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2008, 09:16:07 PM »
I've never been there but heard good things a few years ago, in fact I think they were one of the first to host Justice, weren't they? I used to subscribe to their podcast for a short while but after enjoying one the rest annoyed me in exactly the same way that fluokids and the like did, it seemed like much more of a scene thing than a music thing. Perhaps I'm wrong, just what I heard from a few people and from where the music started to go.

In fact, fluokids could be the mp3 blog I hate more than any other. It's the combination of really stylised photos of really stylised annoying-faced girls, a gradual imbalance of posts about clothes and music, a constant championing of their fuckwit imitator mates and ultimately the whole graphical style of the site. It just looked like a jacket someone would wear to a Klaxons gig.

I know exactly what you mean about DJ-booth limpets, too. I personally don't get it though at all, instead of dancing and enjoying yourself, you'd rather get the most minor reflected glory by pretending to be acquaintances with a DJ?! The mind boggles...I guess they're there for a very different reason to me.

As for Nadia Ksabia, I hear she's great. I remember getting one of my friends from the Daft Crew forum in a real panic after I jokingly suggested he only bigged her up all the time because he fancied her (he was an acquaintance), you know, real childish stuff! Turns out she apparently lurked on that forum because it was always full of obsessive French house nerds and hence bang up to date. Anyway the guy sent me some pretty scathing message to take the message down or he'd have me killed or something! Recently I found out from a guy on here that a band he plays in part-time (Duloks) have a song named after this chap (P.M.D.). Small, small world indeed...

As for a SebastiAn album, I've still no idea. Busy P posts on another French forum I go to sporadically but no mention of anything for a while. All I've heard is 'sometime this year'. I also can't stand to look there too often ebcause of the enormous animated Daft Punk gifs and people asking questions ranging from 'What's Thomas' wife's bra size?' and 'Hey guys, has anyone heard of this group Le Knight Club?'

Yes, I'm a twat, as I admitted earlier.

Yes, they were the first to host justice, amongst others. It was a fucking travesty the way the club ended, they were screwed over by their venue and shunted to the depths of east london a year later, whilst all the clubs they influenced to start thrived in fabulous venues started on daddies credit cards whilst they died a death because of the length of time between finding a venue, and the fact that Modular had filled their boots in the meantime. The last time I went it'd gone from being fabulous and exciting with SMD playing a fucking immense set to about 80 people turning up, a lot who hadn't a clue what they were even at, with Whitey playing an atrocious set, and it mostly being quite dull until my boss got on the decks. It was a shame, it was a brilliant innovate thing that got ruined by wankers.

I don't like fluokids either, its extremely shallow, just like nearly all the dj's on the scene. They will change on a whim what they play, at the moment they're so over saturated with electro, with no distinction between whats good and whats bad, just as long as it sounds like they probably should like it. I think I read something Nadia wrote the other day about how indie kids don't really like dance music, they only like it if it sounds like rock played through some synthesizers. I think the real dance music fans have been driven elsewhere in london, they're sick of sharing with the indie kids, which is fair enough I say.

And that photograph made me feel queasy....

chand

  • "like Louise Mensch but with a sexy beard"
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Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2008, 09:24:17 PM »
Sadly for old music to get a mention in the modern music press, they either have to be covered, get listed in a greatest poll, be involved in scandal, Die or release a best of for the Christmas market. 

Except in Q and Mojo, which seem to spend all their time going on about ancient bands.

Backstage With Slowdive

  • Sonic cathedrals of Ben Elton
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2008, 09:42:07 PM »
It's ironic that Panic, one of the most "here and now" songs of the 80s, and an anthem for alternative anti-playlist spirit, is musically just a replica of Metal Guru.

Backstage With Slowdive

  • Sonic cathedrals of Ben Elton
Re: Indie but not really
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2008, 10:13:28 PM »
there is no counter-cultural music scene any more

There'll always be The Fall.