Rugby

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

Seeing as we even have a tennis thread on here, I thought I might as well start one on rugby (both codes, seeing as the Six Nations and Super League are just round the corner 2nd of Feb and the Heineken Cup and Guinness Premiership being in full swing.

It's also worthwhile continuing the discussion from the "What's good about this country (Great Britain)?" thread.

I've posted a bargain into the January Sales 2008 thread, namely Premiership final tickets for £13 if anyone might be that interested.

I know there's a fair few of us here that like this sort of thing so please don't let this thread die!

I'll start by posting probably my favourite piece of rugby action ever, "wide to West", featuring the mighty Saints  (apologies for the poor picture quality, no apologies for the genius piece of play though).  This clip still gives me goosebumps watching it, Saints 10-11 down to Bradford Bulls in the 2000 Super League playoffs at the end of the game, having to keep the ball alive otherwise the match ends:

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=VjhE7DOvD-c&feature=related[/youtube]

And here's a clip of my favourite Union match ever, France v New Zealand in 1999.   Just look at Twickenham going mental cheering on France, you don't see that often!  France 43-31 N Zealand

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fll1ZPxbyVA[/youtube]

Other threads on CaB with "rugby" in the title

Sacre bleu! C'est Le Rugby World Cup

Rugby

Stan Collymore beaten up by Bath Rugby players

[mikeyg27]

I've decided that I'm going to go to Harlequins RL's league opener against Wigan next month. Usually I can't be bothered to go to Quins because it's on the other side of London, but I like the look of this Wigan side and I also need my League Fix. While I'm at it, can I recommend that any league loving 'whores in North London make a visit to London Skolars at some point this season.

Also, in an intriguing match-up next weekend Super League champions Leeds Rhinos are taking on Australian club South Sydney Rabbitohs... in Jacksonville, Florida. The Rabbitohs are part-owned by one Russell Crowe, who seems determined to turn the Rabbitohs into some sort of international sporting brand like Manchester United or the New York Yankees. He's been promoting the game and the club in the USA quite a bit, so what would be a standard pre-season game now has a bit more substance behind it.

On the union front, I'm quite interested in how  the Six Nations is going to pan out for England. For the first time in a while, I think we might have a decent (dare I say it, exciting?) backline. I'm also looking forward to seeing Vainikolo coming off the bench, as he tends to leave a trail of carnage whenever he plays. My one worry is a lot of people seem to have retired at the same time but I think that the talent is there to replace the leaving players. Anyway, I don't see how it could possibly go any worse than it has done for the last four years.

[Old Thrashbarg]

It's only been three months, but the Super League off-season seems to get longer every year. Only two weeks until it starts up again and it can't come soon enough. Apart from the obvious (i.e. not being any games to go to), it's hard to pinpoint why I get such a feeling of emptiness during the months of inaction, but every year it's the same.

As a Hull FC fan, I'm pretty optimistic about the forthcoming season, with some great signings made from overseas, Berrigan and Dykes in particular, and continued development of the many talented youngsters coming through the Academy ranks. However, a couple of injuries to key personnel could put a lot of pressure on some of the juniors to perform, and lead the team, at a level they're still getting used. Talented though they may be, it would be a big ask to control a team pushing for the title at such a tender age.

As far as other teams go, Leeds and Saints haven't recruited anybody, but also haven't lost anyone. Keeping a stable squad can only be good for the cohesion of the team, but some of the players, particularly for Saints, are getting on in years and may struggle to last the pace. However, both teams also have a talented group of juniors coming through, and I'd expect both to be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.

Wigan have made some risky signings, and also lost a few experienced players. Pryce, who has returned to rugby league from Gloucester Rugby Union, may need time to re-adapt to the game, and wasn't overly impressive before his initial switch of codes. Mathers hasn't played for a long time, having suffered knee problems the last couple of years, and his level of fitness remains to be seen. Coley, last year, was very poor for an even poorer Salford team and his signing is a massive gamble. Of the lost players, Fletcher will leave a big hole in the forwards that will not be easy to fill, although, with their current squad and a couple of talented rookies, Wigan should be pushing for a ply-off spot.

Bradford have made a lot of changes during the off-season, although none of the players who've departed could really be considered anything other the solid and shouldn't be too difficult to replace. As for signings, they've basically replaced what they've lost, with the backs probably improving slightly on what they had. Nero will be their signing to watch after an impressive spell with Huddersfield, and Jeffries is an interesting acquisition. How he will fit into the team along with Harris and Deacon remains to be seen, but there's only room for two of them in the line-up, and none of those three will enjoy coming from the bench or missing out altogether. Again, they will be looking for a play-off spot and a push for the title.

Huddersfield have lost arguably their two best players from the last couple of years in Drew and Nero. Gatis comes in to replace Drew and, whilst being a decent player, won't quite have the impact Drew had, I feel. Whatuira will strengthen the backs (as will Hodgson, although he has picked up a long term injury) and Robinson will do a similar job to the departing Paul. They will be looking to build on last season's success and achieve another play-off finish, but a couple of long term injuries already will test the strength of their squad.

Warrington have probably been the most impressive in the transfer market, losing relatively little and gaining a couple of great players in Monaghan and King and two pretty good signings in Hicks and Anderson. However, they still have the misfortune of being coached by Cullen, and if anyone can lead the Warrington team to failure, he can. They'll be looking to improve on the disappointment of last year and with the squad they've built, this shouldn't be a problem.

Wakefield have been very active in the off-season. Drew will be a great signing, and Brough, should his attitude (both on and off the field) be right, could also be a useful signing. Grix was very impressive in NL1 last year and will be looking to carry that form on at a higher level, which he looks capable of doing. Their other signings are solid if not spectacular and, whilst losing a lot of players, none of them were particularly influential (with the possible exception of Jeffries) and shouldn't be missed too much. They will be again looking towards the lower end of the play-offs, but a lot will depend on the way in which their signings settle in.

Harlequins face a tough season. Losing Hopkins, Smith and Sykes is a big blow, with their replacements not being of the highest standard. They still have some great players - especially McLinden and Hill - but my struggle, and the lack of relegation this season may well be of great benefit to the 'Quins.

Catalans have suffered a massive loss with the retirement of Jones, and haven't really replaced him. However, they lost too much else and the signing of Carlaw could be one of the best made for the up-coming season. Gorrell's return to fitness will also me a huge boost after missing a lot of last year. Another season of development beckons for the Dragons, and they will be looking at another finish on the lower-mid table region.

Hull KR have made an enormous amount of changes since the end of last season. They've lost a lot of players, some who had decent seasons last year, but their replacements all look to be of a higher standard. Newton will be a good acquisition along with Galea and Briscoe, however the quality of the rest of their recruitment depends on where their signings are played. Webster, Walker and Fitzhenry are all players who want to play in positions that are not generally regarded as their strongest. A season of consolidation for Rovers, they - like a number of teams - will be aiming for the lower end of the play-offs, but just below is probably a more realistic target.

Finally, Castleford will more than likely be battling it out with Harlequins at the wrong end of the table. Sherwin is a great signing and Guttenbeil a top player, but their squad looks very thin. Injuries to a couple of players will see them down to the bare bones and, even with a fully fit squad, they don't look like posing much threat to teams outside the bottom third. Again, the lack of relegation will help them and will also bode well for future seasons, with junior development being allowed to play a bigger role than would normally have been possible for them this season.

[dr beat]

Always good to see some RL banter on this site.  For my sins I'm a Widnes fan - you could say we've experienced some 'interesting times' in the off-season, what with going into administration the day after a truly abysmal Grand Final performance.  But this might have proved to be for the best, and I'm quite optimistic with the off-field situation in the light of our takeover.  Finally it seems like we'll be run in a properly professional way, after decades of being run by (admittedly well-meaning) amateurs, or out and out shady bastards in more recent times.

That said, I'm not expecting much on the pitch this season.  We've been docked 9 points, and I think we'll struggle to make an impact in the league to be honest.  However, I'm kind of hopeful we can still make the top six.

Anyway, one of the highlights of the year is the Challenge Cup Final and the Super League Grand Final - always a great excuse for some all-day drinking!

[Gulftastic]

I've been a Leeds Rhinos fan for over 20 years now and Wednesday's lottery is my last chance to win the money to jet over to Jacksonville. Fingers crossed everybody.

I am worried about the forthcoming season. It's always harder to repeat a Championship winning season than it is to win it in the first place, and I would have preferred to have seen us sign someone. We have a good squad, and some useful youngsters coming through (hopefully Ash Gibson can stay injury free this year) but it still feels a bit like we are standing still.

Maybe the new coach will give us some new thrust but I'm still worried.

And I do hope Widnes come back up. When I first started watching Dougie Laughton would bring his team of maniacs to Headingley and they would beat us up time and time again. Kurt Sorenson, Koloto, McKenzie, Grima etc.... Now we hammer them every time we play them and I like it. Best served cold is right.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

Bloody hell, I don't quite know what Matthew Tait is expected to do to hold down a place in the England team.  He's been dropped completely from the squad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/7212353.stm

I can sort of see what Ashton is trying to do, Tindall has been in form at the start of this season and is a powerhouse to combat the Henson/Parker midfield which is why he is playing at outside centre.  Balshaw is a solid and pacey full back with a fair bit of pace - Ashton is saying that he doesn't want to plunge Tait in at the deep end at full back in such a big game.  Can't quite believe that he hasn't even made the bench though, he seems to have been sacrificed in favour of Lesley Vainikolo.

I can see the attraction of Vainikolo coming off the bench, I guess the theory is that he should be able to bash through Shane Williams and Mark Jones as if they were skittles.

For me though it's a shame, this was Tait in the world cup final (apologies for poor picture quality):

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=CLE2ks8qh8Q[/youtube]

I can't think of too many other England players who are capable of that sort of line break at the moment.

[The Duck Man]

My cricket team is doing a fantasy league rugby thing to raise money. We're doing this thing, £2 gets you in the league and you win half the pt if you win. Now, I'll watch the Six Nations/World Cup when it's on (much as I will watch Wimbledon) and could tell you who England's best players are, and I know the headliners for France/Ireland. But that's not really enough and I want to do and OK job.

Pick a player for each position, maximum for 4 players of one nationality - who should I pick.

My vague guesswork on the backs thus far has Elissade (SH), Wikinson (FH), O'Driscoll (C), ? (C), Clerc (W), Lamont (FB), Williams (W). I'm far more hazy on forwards.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

The nationalities thing is a bit of a fucker.  See below for some choices.

Might be worth sticking Mike Tindall in as your other C there, he is playing well at the moment.  Or possibly Damien Traille as he has a big boot and takes France's long kicks for goal (although I've just checked and you're only allowed one kicker so you'd be contrarian to say the least if you weren't going to have Wilkinson as your kicker).  Andrew Henderson of Scotland is a good player if you're struggling on nationalities.

Andrew Sheridan and Phil Vickery should be your props as they're worth man of the match shouts, providing they stay fit.  Seeing as you don't have to have two props and a hooker for your front row, I'd consider having Andrea Lo Cicero (the "Baron") as he is a monster.  That's your front row.  You might have to drop Tindall if you want two Englishmen in your front row though, as well as Simon Shaw in your second row.

You have to have Simon Shaw in as a second row forward, deciding who the other one might be a bit of a bugger though.  Lionel Nallet, the French captain, is probably the best bet.

Pick Thierry Dusatoir as one of your flankers, he's magnificent.  Mauro Bergamasco might be a decent bet for the other flanker as he tends to score a few tries.  Martin Williams tends to get a few tries too.  That's your back row sorted.

I would have said put Paterson in as your full back, but bizarrely he's been dropped to the bench.  He kicks tons of (easy) points for the sweaties and I just can't believe that Rory Lamont will be better than him.  France have picked Cedric Heymans as full back which seems a bit odd to me seeing as he's shocking under the high ball, but I guess that's Gallic inscutability for you.

[The Duck Man]

Thank you, sir - a great help. Most of my back selections were down to the fact they scored a fair amount of points in the World Cup, and thus are likely to garner points in fantasy league, good to have a slightly more informed opinion. No Irish people on the above list, I see, have they gone totally shit now?

Earlier I googled 2008 Six Nations Ones to Watch and, after filtering the vast amount that were fly/scrum halves ended up with these suggestions:
Dimitri Szarzewski - hooker
Bergamasco - centre
Yannick Jauzion - centre
Clement Poitrenaud - fullback

Anyway, I'm hogging the thread and the competion starts tomorrow - thoughts people.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

No Irish people on the above list, I see, have they gone totally shit now?

I guess I'm dubious about their chances.  It depends how they react to being utterly, fantastically, awesomely shite in the World Cup.  You'd already picked O'Driscoll up there who is their standout pick.  I guess you could maybe have picked O'Gara, he seems to have shaken himself out of his World Cup funk, but then again, you wouldn't drop Wilkinson in favour of him.

Yannick Jauzion - centre

I would've mentioned him up there, it's just that he's injured at the moment so you'd already be losing appearance points.  He is a fucking great player though.

Anyway, I'm hogging the thread and the competion starts tomorrow - thoughts people.

This weekend you can't look past England, Ireland and France.  The Ireland v Italy match would've been the closest match had it been held in Rome, but it's at Croke Park, so it can't be anything other than an Ireland win.

Without wishing to tempt fate too much, England are due to really batter a team sooner or later.  They haven't done it for a while, and while they haven't been that great, either at club or international level, they could do something here.  Vainikolo coming on in the last 20 minutes could be brutal if he gets the ball in hand.

I would've considered saying that Scotland could beat France, but for the utterly bizarre dropping of Chris Paterson to the bench.  Truly baffling selection that, seeing as he's a points machine.  France have brought in a ton of new players.  If they gel and start enjoying themselves they should be able to start chucking the ball around with no fear and really cut lose.  If they get a bit jumpy, or if Scotland get off to a good start, the Murrayfield atmosphere might be too much for them.

[Pogue Mahone]

Ireland made a promising start and scored a good try but this game is beginning to drag now. The crowd have been fairly dull also. Some of the Irish lay-offs have been disastrous, especially those in good positions which might have lead to a try to put Italy away. I won't even talk about the line-outs. I see little has been learned on that front since the horrendous World Cup.

At least O'Gara has just added another three points there to put a safer bit of space between the teams.

[mikeyg27]

This weekend you can't look past England, Ireland and France.  The Ireland v Italy match would've been the closest match had it been held in Rome, but it's at Croke Park, so it can't be anything other than an Ireland win.

Without wishing to tempt fate too much, England are due to really batter a team sooner or later.  They haven't done it for a while, and while they haven't been that great, either at club or international level, they could do something here.  Vainikolo coming on in the last 20 minutes could be brutal if he gets the ball in hand.

So far, this Ireland - Italy match has been fucking boring. Croke Park is like a fucking library right now.

And England will not batter Wales. I'm actually sort of worried for England because a) dropping Tait really worries me as a signal of intent and b) Warren Gatland is a very strong contender for best coach in the world, and with Shaun Edwards* as one of his deputies Wales are going to get whipped into good shape pretty quickly (I hope not too quickly).

*I met Shaun once, as he helped out with the coaching a few times at Skolars when they first joined NL2. He's a small but scary looking guy.

[Pogue Mahone]

I thought we'd be in for a nail-biting finish there but O'Gara has just notched up another three points. I'm not sure what to make of the video referee's decision on the Italian try seeing as no angle proved conclusively that the ball was touched down. How can you award it if you can't see it? The referee asked his assistant to provide him with a reason not to award the try. Surely, if there is doubt, the burden should be to prove that there is reason to award a try? As far as I could see, there was no evidence to prove there was a try. Wouldn't the lack of such be, in itself, a good enough reason not to award it?

Edit to add: Bah; back to five points between them again.

[Garfield And Friends]

Wales ahead 26-19 at the moment!

[Garfield And Friends]

Wales win at Twicks!

[mikeyg27]

I'm actually sort of worried for England because a) dropping Tait really worries me as a signal of intent and b) Warren Gatland is a very strong contender for best coach in the world, and with Shaun Edwards* as one of his deputies Wales are going to get whipped into good shape pretty quickly (I hope not too quickly).

In the words of The Hives, Hate to Say I Told You So.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Wasn't there a plan to liquidate all Welsh people and level their 'mountains' into English-style pasture land about 1300 years ago?

Yeah?

Well why didn't that happen then?

[buttgammon]

Jesus Christ, what a match, what a fucking turnaround!

To say I'm ecstatic wouldn't really do it justice. I'm completely stunned but also absolutely overjoyed that I was born a few miles on this side of the border. Extraordinary! To win at Twickenham for the first time in 20 years, having been trailing by 13 points in one stage is just amazing! I don't think I sat down for the last 20 or 30 minutes, absolutely mesmerising stuff.

[actwithoutwords]

Ireland were dire again. Very little to say there. That whole set-up is bordering on bankrupt. Lack of team spirit, ideas, enthusiasm, confidence. Nothing has changed since the World Cup. And yet Declan Kidney, unarguably the best manager in Ireland, is likely to never get a chance to manage the national team due to internal politics.

The Wales game rescued me from despair that this year's 6 Nation's would be a post-World Cup hungover damp squib. England just completely shat the bed in the second half didn't they? Crazy. So much for all that bollocks about England being so tough to beat when it's close coming into the last 20 minutes.

Very little good play to be honest in the two matches, Irish try was good, as was England's and the first Welsh try showed excellent recycling and persistence, but the overall level was fairly poor from everyone I thought.

[mikeyg27]

Still, it's not all bad: Super League got off to an entertaining start with Leeds beating Hull KR in a close-fought opener, which when watched on the same day as the Six Nations reminded me how much I like running rugby, ball skills, and also tries. Both teams also had pretty ferocious defense to start off with, considering it was their first game at full intensity for a few months. It also cracked me up how Brian Moore and Eddie Butler were going on about England's try being a 'rugby league' try. Did no one in Union ever think of the kick into the corner?

It's painfully obvious what England's problem is: they're nowhere near clinical enough. Fair play to Wales for coming back from a big deficit, but if England were remotely competent finishers then they would have been at least 25 points clear at half-time (really this is a problem with Northern Hemisphere rugby in general, apart from Good France). The way they imploded and played like headless chickens in the second half, they got what they deserved.

[actwithoutwords]

It also cracked me up how Brian Moore and Eddie Butler were going on about England's try being a 'rugby league' try. Did no one in Union ever think of the kick into the corner?

Yeah that was odd, that's been a fairly common tactic for the last almost a decade now I think.
e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu_2NmTDH-E
(sorry I couldn't resist)

Also, did anyone else hear Phillip Matthews casually saying "And Nick Mallett in the stands will be pissed off with that one" during the commentary of the Ireland Italy game? Very funny.

[drberbatov]

Iain Balshaw answers his critics......

[mikeyg27]

(sorry I couldn't resist)

I'm looking forward to our battle of mediocrity on March 15th already[/sarcasm]. After the World Cup I thought we might actually beat you... now I'm not so sure.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....this is getting annoying, now!

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

In the words of The Hives, Hate to Say I Told You So.

If England weren't so tactically naive in the second half they would have been out of sight.  As it was, well, all those penalties they got in the second half were just wasted.  Wilkinson could have kicked them over with his eyes closed.  Instead, they just kept kicking to the corner for some reason.  The constant failure to put the game to bed with penalties reminded me of the match against Wales at Wembley when Scott Gibbs scored the late try to win it.

I don't think Wilkinson will ever be able to fully explain what was going through his head when he chucked that pass to nowhere which caused chaos and lead to Wales' equaliser.

England will bounce back against Italy (probably!) and, hopefully, be less dire than the awful Irish, but I really fear for them against France (obviously), and Scotland.  Scotland at Murrayfield is going to be a fucking tough dogfight.

[actwithoutwords]

I'm looking forward to our battle of mediocrity on March 15th already[/sarcasm]. After the World Cup I thought we might actually beat you... now I'm not so sure.

Nah. You will beat us. We are utter bollocks. Short of a miracle turnaround, the manager will be on his last legs and the dressing room will be even more divided than it is at the moment. Plus, we have beaten ye 4 years in a row now, we are due a kicking.

[Pogue Mahone]

That was a promising Irish performance today. Admittedly, the first-half was depressing, but the near-comeback in the second-half had me on the edge of my seat by the final whistle. It was impressive, spirited and confident. The heads didn't drop after the French pulled away and sheer determination carried Ireland back within touching distance. If we had held on to possession for another while rather than choosing to have a go at kicking the ball through the defence at the end or had there been a few more minutes on the clock, I'd say our momentum and dominance would have eventually helped us scrape over to get the try. I felt Ireland were unlucky not to get the win in the end, but we only have ourselves to blame for letting the French run riot in the first-half. In saying that, France did get a few lucky bounces, but they are very good at punishing silly errors and taking full advantage of the circumstances; they'll hit you like a bullet if you give them a hint of an opportunity.

[actwithoutwords]

Well that was fucking well more like it.

From the start a much more composed and committed performance than I've seen from an Ireland team in 12 months. Silly mistakes (mixed with unlucky bounces of the ball) punished by an unbelievably clinical French back line killed us, but as usual the French took their eye off the ball, and once we started holding on to possession we were by far the better team. I've not seen an Irish pack slaughter another big team like that in a long long time. A penalty try, great ball carrying and we mauled them off the park in the second half. We just lacked France's killer instinct: O'Driscoll's pass over Murphy's head with the try line gaping, Reddan's (superb) break off the last lineout when he passed infield rather than out, and then the high-risk grubber for the last kick of the game when a try looked almost inevitable. From the interviews, the lads didn't realise the clock had gone past 80, so that kick is forgiveable as it would have given us a 5 metre lineout at which I would have put money on that Irish pack to maul a try from.

Anyway, in summary, fucking gutting. But the first Irish performance to be proud of since last year's Six Nations. And an absolutely cracking game.

EDIT: Ha, pretty much snap there Pogue. You win though, by seconds.

[mikeyg27]

I went to Harlequins vs Wigan, a tight game that see-sawed until Wigan went mental in the last 20 minutes, winning 47-28. I'm fairly confident that Quins will come out of the match a stronger team, and I have Wigan as my outside bet for the Super League title. Now, should I go see the Skolars tomorrow?

Nah. You will beat us. We are utter bollocks. Short of a miracle turnaround, the manager will be on his last legs and the dressing room will be even more divided than it is at the moment. Plus, we have beaten ye 4 years in a row now, we are due a kicking.

Want to change your mind yet? I'm actually worried about England against Italy tomorrow...

[Identity Crisis Ahoy!]

This thread will fail, but it was a nice try.