Rugby

[fanny splendid]

Hah!

I gave up watching the second half; Moore's constant jabbering was too much, but I also noticed Butler's French pronunciation. And noticed it again. And again.

Still, Lipman looked solid, and as a Sale fan, it was good to see Wigglesworth have a steady first half. On that note, no Chabal for France was good news for Sale and England.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

I don't mind where England's players come from clubwise, just so long as they play well for England.

England were so far on top of the French pack it was untrue, even with the recalled Pape.  I guess the warning signs were there a couple of weeks ago when the weak Irish pack dominated the French (the French conceded a penalty try against the Irish ffs) which lead to penalty after penalty after penalty.  It should have lead to a sin binning in my view as the French front row's constant collapsing, illegal binding and general depowering could have lead to injury.

As I said when I was pissed last night, the French were bizarre.  Marc Lievremont seems to have convinced his team that they are a 15 man rugby league team by their general lack of kicking and failure to have a "proper" goal kicker.  The only time I can remember them kicking the ball out of the 22 was to bring the first half to an end.  The French looked clueless and confused, particularly towards the end, so I wasn't really that nervous.  They were always far more likely to knock on or generally fuck up than score a wonder try from their own 22.  Skrela ended up knocking on which set up England's continuing drives which lead to Wrigglesworth's try (great celebration by Wrigglesworth by the way, real manic, bulgy-eyed, chuck the ball into the crowd stuff).  France could probably have run the ball out of their 22 if rugby league's offside rules were suddenly adopted during the match, but under union's rules they had no chance in gaining any territory.  They should have kicked for territory more often and challenged the sometimes ropey England line out, but for some reason they didn't do it.

Vainikolo's work rate and defence was much improved, but it's hard to properly judge his performance until he receives a series of balls banged over his head.  Not having a dedicated goal kicker was criminal too, kicking penalties to keep the scoreboard ticking over is such an important part of rugby union.

Iain Balshaw should probably be dropped now, it was embarrassing to watch him miss the high ball which ended up being recovered by Sackey.  He missed the ball by miles.  I don't quite know why Josh Lewsey continues to be excluded from the team, he's a class act, playing out of his skin at the moment.  His omission reminds me of the time when Kenny Daglish dropped Peter Beardsley from the Liverpool team, depsite Beardsley being in peak form at the time (although it later transpired, allegedly, that Beardsley had fucked Daglish's wife - I hope for all concerned that Lewsey hasn't been balling Ashton's wife).

I can't believe the touch judge missed Noon's knock on for Sackey's try.  It happened right in front of him!  At international level it seems like the touch judges are there to mark where the ball has gone into touch and that's it!

Unbelievably exciting match in Super League today between Hull KR and Warrington.  It ended up 29-28 to Warrington, but only after they'd spunked a 28-0 lead!  Poor old Cas look fucked after getting smashed 64-12 by Huddersfield, an absolutely enormous thrashing.

[Gulftastic]

Don't worry about Cas. The mighty, mighty Rhinos go there in a couple of weeks. They always raise their game for that one. It's like their Cup Final.

Plus, they all get to shout hilarious anti-semetic stuff at us.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

Plus, they all get to shout hilarious anti-semetic stuff at us.

Please forgive me for not knowing this, but why is that?  I wasn't aware of Leeds' haing jewish roots or a jewish following.

Looking forward to the World Club Challenge tomorrow, for all its flaws (the fact the Aussies have to come here for the match, as well as it occurring pre season for the Aussies whereas the English teams are nicely battle hardened).  It does seem to be gaining credibility though, Rob Burrow described it as being aChampions League final at rugby.  It also helps that the match is being played on an annual, rather than ad hoc basis now.

It's being played at Elland Road rather than Headingly tomorrow, which gives some idea of the attraction of this match.  There was a bit of discussion on 5 Live about how the match might be played at a neutral venue, such as Dubai or Hong Kong, but I would have thought that alternating the fixture between England and Australia would be the better option.

Any ideas on the result tomorrow?  History would seem to indicate that it should be a win for Leeds, but that it might be a close one.  Please post stuff so I have something interesting to read at work tomorrow!

[mikeyg27]

Melbourne have traveled without Greg Inglis, who might just be the most naturally talented rugby player on the planet, and they don't have their captain Cameron Smith either, who was the Golden Boot winner last year. They still have a decent side (with Billy Slater and Israel Folau they have two of the best attacking talents in the world) but not having a full strength side, as well as effectively playing the game pre-season, will not help the Storm against a Leeds side who have really started looking shit-hot in the last few weeks. I expect Leeds to win reasonably (although maybe not too) comfortably.

[Old Thrashbarg]

Melbourne have traveled without Greg Inglis, who might just be the most naturally talented rugby player on the planet, and they don't have their captain Cameron Smith either, who was the Golden Boot winner last year. They still have a decent side (with Billy Slater and Israel Folau they have two of the best attacking talents in the world) but not having a full strength side, as well as effectively playing the game pre-season, will not help the Storm against a Leeds side who have really started looking shit-hot in the last few weeks. I expect Leeds to win reasonably (although maybe not too) comfortably.

That's pretty much how I see it. Melbourne are lacking two of their best (and the world's best) players, which would be a massive problem on it's own. Adding that, though, to it being a pre-season game for them, with a squad that won't be expecting to be in proper match condition, physically, for a month or so, against a Leeds outfit that are already well into their stride, and it's hard to see how Melbourne can win.

Obviously, they still have a hugely talented squad that is easily capable of beating anyone on their day, but with the way Leeds have been playing recently, a (fairly) comfortable victory for the 'home' side seems the most likely outcome.

[mikeyg27]

In other news, Stephen Jones is a hateful cunt.

[Gulftastic]

After waiting 18 months for the hospital to get funding approval for a treatment I need, when do they phone me up to tell me they've got a the go-ahead and a bed for me?

Today, the day of the World Club Challenge.

As grateful as I am to the hospital, their timing could not suck more.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

In other news, Stephen Jones is a hateful cunt.

I assume you're referring to his comments about Rugby League there.  It has prompted a couple of angry-ish responses, including the one below:

Hi Stephen,

Please can you explain why your always so keen to have a pop at Rugby League? I thought you were employed as a Rugby Union correspondent?

The problem is that you clearly know your stuff when it comes to Union but whenever you mention League you loose all sight of objectiveness and impartiality.

For example, you criticise the name of the World Club Challenge but this criticism could equally be applied to the Union World Cup, which is a very very long way from being a true "world" event.

Then there's your list of "failures" - again your judgment appears clouded by your hatred of League. Some of the names you have suggested are simply ridiculous:
Garry Connolly - barely played Union and yet was described as one of the best centres he'd seen by Will Carling
Matt Rogers - 45 caps for the Wallabies and even played at fly half (not bad for a league winger!!!)
Brad Thorn - 12 caps for that notoriously easy to get into team the All Blacks
Lote Tuqiri - 53 caps for the wallabies and 25 tries
Barrie Jon-Mather - England Schoolboy Union international - hardly a good convert example
Henry Paul - Glos' season ticket holders’ player of the year 2004, nominated for the Zurich Premiership player of the year
Brian Carney - took up union in March 2007 and in the Irish World cup squad by April 2007
Nathan Blacklock - didn't like union wanted to quite after about a month, to quote him "I'm just a leaguey, sorry."
Robbie Paul - Please can you enlighten us on his union career
AND GOODNIGHT

Danny, Stroud,

[drberbatov]

Speaking of the World Club Challenge I remember about ten years ago they had a competition connected to Super League Europe and the Aussie Super League where every team played each other and the Aussies ran riot. I think the concept flopped

[mikeyg27]

Jones is pretty well known in League circles for clearly having a gripe, and the way he gets to spout uninformed bullshit on a national stage is pretty shocking (why is he even writing about the World Club Challenge in a Union newsletter?). However, it's his complete hatred for anything which might encourage running rugby that really pisses me off - as well as League he is constantly having a pop at Southern Hemisphere Rugby Union and the Super 14, which would be all well and good if the SH hadn't won 5 of the 6 World cups and won the majority of their encounters with NH sides (Ireland and Scotland have never beaten the All Blacks).

I also totally agree with that reply taking to task his list of failures, in particular Lote Tuquri who as been the Wallabies' saving grace for the last four years. Of his failures, the only ones I would consider proper flops are Karl Pryce, Gareth Raynor, Chev Walker (and in their cases, it's more due to not sticking with it and going back to League rather than actually being shit) and possibly Wendell Sailor, although even he didn't do that badly. Part of the reason a lot of those players are considered flops is because they were thrust into international level after a handful of club games! When Jonathan Davies, Allan Bateman et all went from Union to League, they had to play in the reserve team for a while before they were even put in the 1st team, let alone GB. Perhaps if the expectation wasn't so high, and if the players in question weren't fast-tracked to the point of being dumped in a no-win situation, they wouldn't be judged so harshly?

I wish there was more money and profile in League at the minute because I would genuinely like to see how many of the top level Union players would go in League. I doubt any of England's backs would do that well (maybe Sackey), but I would love to see someone like Brian O'Driscoll, Dan Carter or Damien Traille give it a go. I wish Carlos Spencer had moved as well, because he would never have been maligned for being a bit 'renegade' in League. He was essentially a League half playing Union, and I'm fully aware that that's not often a good thing (the requirements of playing pivot in the two codes are very different).

Speaking of the World Club Challenge I remember about ten years ago they had a competition connected to Super League Europe and the Aussie Super League where every team played each other and the Aussies ran riot. I think the concept flopped

It was a terrible, terrible idea. The Aussie clubs were so far ahead of the European clubs at the time (the gap has closed a little now) that it was only ever going to involve one sided matches, and Australian clubs won 48 matches to Europe's 8. Also, with the pools being arranged as either all Aussie or all European clubs, it meant that Penrith went out at the group stage even though they were unbeaten, and Bradford went through without winning a game.

International play was basically supposed to Murdoch's upper hand in his battle with the ARL and Kerry Packer for control of League in Australia (all other national federations aligned with Super League, leaving the ARL with no one to play), but the tournament failed badly. The Super League War decimated Australian Rugby League to a point from which it has only just recovered. Looking at the tournament, three of the clubs in the Australian part of the draw no longer exist, two of which were attempts at expansion outside of the NSW / Queensland heartlands which were sacrificed when the game unified again (although Perth Reds have recently started up playing at a lower level again). Paris St Germain in the euro half of the draw are also long gone.

[Old Thrashbarg]

Of his failures, the only ones I would consider proper flops are Karl Pryce, Gareth Raynor, Chev Walker (and in their cases, it's more due to not sticking with it and going back to League rather than actually being shit) and possibly Wendell Sailor, although even he didn't do that badly.

And it's interesting that all of them are outside backs, whose combined number of kicks in league probably doesn't reach double figures (although Pryce played stand-off for Bradford a few times, distorting his figures), yet they would probably have been expected to kick the majority of times they received the ball in union.

[mikeyg27]

I hadn't noticed that, but you're right. As someone who's played in every position in both codes apart from a contested Union front row, Winger in Union is by far the most tedious position. Centre depends entirely on whether the pack are doing well and how the fly-half's playing.

[drberbatov]

Jones' comments seem to be even more ridiculous when you consider he probably played alongside Scott Gibbs and Scott Quinnell who both played league. John Bentley (a key member of the 97 lions), Va'aiga Tuigamala (dominated the premiership for a few seasons), Jason Robinson (an all time great, World Cup Winner) were all decent players from what I can remember

I think some bright spark tried to settle the league vs. Union debate with games between Bath and Wigan, and yes those games sucked

[Old Thrashbarg]

That's pretty much how I see it. Melbourne are lacking two of their best (and the world's best) players, which would be a massive problem on it's own. Adding that, though, to it being a pre-season game for them, with a squad that won't be expecting to be in proper match condition, physically, for a month or so, against a Leeds outfit that are already well into their stride, and it's hard to see how Melbourne can win.

Obviously, they still have a hugely talented squad that is easily capable of beating anyone on their day, but with the way Leeds have been playing recently, a (fairly) comfortable victory for the 'home' side seems the most likely outcome.

Not too bad a prediction really. The conditions negated the chances of any free-flowing, open rugby from either team, turning the game into a battle of the forwards. This suited Melbourne whilst their fitness held up, with some of their big units making decent ground and coming up with some huge tackles. However, as the conditions started to tell, with fatigue setting in, Leeds got on top, and their superior fitness was the deciding factor in the end.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

As someone who loves sport generally, I find virulant hatred for a particular sport a little odd.

But when you consider that it's an advocate of Rugby Union, a sport that's doing pretty damn well for itself at the moment, dissing Rugby League, a sport whos efforts to expand beyond the M62 seem doomed to failure it seems like a big kid kicking down a small kid's sandcastle or something.

For what it's worth, Rugby League's essentially doomed because of the lack of proper international competition. 7 million people watched France-England last weekend, and I'd guess that a good portion of the people watching don't follow club rugby at all (myself included). Without the hook that regular fixtures for a national team provides, it's hard for a sport to make that mainstream breakthrough.

Which is a pity, because to my relatively unbiased eye League's the better game.

[Old Thrashbarg]

As someone who loves sport generally, I find virulant hatred for a particular sport a little odd.

But when you consider that it's an advocate of Rugby Union, a sport that's doing pretty damn well for itself at the moment, dissing Rugby League, a sport whos efforts to expand beyond the M62 seem doomed to failure it seems like a big kid kicking down a small kid's sandcastle or something.

For what it's worth, Rugby League's essentially doomed because of the lack of proper international competition. 7 million people watched France-England last weekend, and I'd guess that a good portion of the people watching don't follow club rugby at all (myself included). Without the hook that regular fixtures for a national team provides, it's hard for a sport to make that mainstream breakthrough.

Which is a pity, because to my relatively unbiased eye League's the better game.

I think 'doomed' is a little strong (it is the second highest attended sport in the country), but the gist of what you say is correct. In recent years the RFL and RLIF have tried to improve the state of the international game in numerous ways, such as the Tri-Nations competition that was created 4/5 years ago (and the planned inclusion of France in this in the future), the European/Federation Cups that have been played post-season, the World Cup at the end of this year, building interest in France with the inclusion of Catalans in Super League, the promotional game in America that was pushed by Russell Crowe, etc.

They're all working in their own way, but creating a truly credible international scene is a process that will take a very long time (even reaching the credibility of union's international game, which isn't that much stronger really, will be a hard task). A lot of the lack of international competition is down to the parochial nature of the fans, both here and in the southern hemisphere, and it may also be due to the roots of the game (i.e. working class), resulting in a lack of presence - and therefore, coverage - in the media. There have also been problems with a lack of foresight from the heads of the game previously, as well as a focus on short term fixes from clubs (which 'franchising will hopefully go some way towards eliminating).

Despite all this, the crowds at club level continue to grow and over 33,000 turned up in horrible conditions tonight to watch Leeds and Melbourne.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I meant "doomed" in the sense that all the sports efforts to expand beyond it's current level of popularity are doomed due to the lack of a credible international game.

The World Cup is incredibly important, at least for the game down under.

[mikeyg27]

Breaking outside of the M62 corridor has actually been one of the big success stories in League in the last 5 years. I play League in London, where there's a pretty strong grassroots setup and where the amateur standard would be highest outside of the BARLA leagues. The RLC, a competition set up to introduce League to places outside the heartlands, stretches all the way from Plymouth to Edinburgh (although most of these divisions are still behind the standard of BARLA). There are now National League sides in London and Wales, and the Welsh team, Celtic Crusaders, are tipped by many to make the RFL's list of licenses for Super League next year (personally I think they should wait until 2012 when the licenses are reviewed). Obviously it's still nowhere near the profile and spread of Union, but it's certainly progress.

The problem is somewhat a matter of perception, which is where the international scene is crucial. If you think about it, Union doesn't actually have that big an international scene (there are 10-12 credible nations, of which 6-7 are way ahead of the others, of whom only 5 have been in the World Cup final), it's just that the Six Nations and the Tours are seen as 'events', hence a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't care start watching the matches. This is why I like the idea of the Tri-Nations, as it sets up international matches as an 'event'. If League has about 5-7 credible sides, I reckon it would be fine internationally. What would really boost the game in this country would be winning the World Cup. A lot of Union's position today is due to winning the 2003 World Cup and reaching the final last year. I doubt there would be a parade to Trafalgar Square if they did win, but I think there would be attention and respect, and if the 2003 win (and the 2005 Ashes) showed anything, it's that England really would like some champion to celebrate. Oddly, it might also help the game in Australia, since they don't seem to care enough about international games any more since they have been so far ahead for so long (the Kangaroos are like the All Blacks, except instead of choking on the big stage, they raise their game to a new level) and losing a tournament would remind them they don't have it all their own way (like the 2005 Ashes did for the cricket team).

Really, both codes are way behind Football (something I don't mind too much, since a lot of the things that put me off football are linked to the media bullshit around it) and are fighting for scraps in most back pages.

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

I wish there was more money and profile in League at the minute because I would genuinely like to see how many of the top level Union players would go in League. I doubt any of England's backs would do that well (maybe Sackey), but I would love to see someone like Brian O'Driscoll, Dan Carter or Damien Traille give it a go. I wish Carlos Spencer had moved as well, because he would never have been maligned for being a bit 'renegade' in League. He was essentially a League half playing Union, and I'm fully aware that that's not often a good thing (the requirements of playing pivot in the two codes are very different).

I think Yannick Jauzion would be a cracking league player, he's a strong and inventive runner.  Also, from England, I reckon (a bulked up) Matthew Tait and Josh Lewsey would be able to have a decent go in League.  Still love Josh Lewsey's tackle on Mat Rogers (in the youtube video below - please accept my apologies for the shit music, tedious use of the haka, numerous late tackles, shoulder charges masquerading as tackles, cheap shots, grapple and clothes line tackles, etc, which seem to be so beloved of youtube rugby video uploaders), I think his defence would be up to League standard, I don't quite know why he continues to be omitted from the England team.

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=tc0Ut5y-GRc&feature=related[/youtube]

Match last night was played in fucking awful conditions, Sinfield really showed his value as a world class kicker, his kicks were the difference between the two sides.  Really bizarre incident relating to the laser being shined on Sinfield when he was lining up a goal kick, didn't seem to affect him though.  Billy Slater looks absolutely magnificent, a really exciting player, phenomenally elusive bringing the ball out of defence.

Interesting that Melbourne's Craig Bellamy wanted to meet Rafael Benitez in advance of the match.  I think that Benitez seems to be a bit of a rugby league fan as he's been seen watching St Helens at Knowsley road a fair bit (Liverpool reserves used to play there, but Benitez has been seen there a fair bit since the reserves moved their matches to Warrington's ground).

[mikeyg27]

In other news, someone up there is watching over Iain Balshaw.

Can't say I disagree with dropping Cipriani if he was out on the town (if he wants to take over Jonny's No10 shirt he needs to learn he has to sacrifice a few things, like fun) but surely there's another full-back around?

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

In other news, someone up there is watching over Iain Balshaw.

Can't say I disagree with dropping Cipriani if he was out on the town (if he wants to take over Jonny's No10 shirt he needs to learn he has to sacrifice a few things, like fun) but surely there's another full-back around?

How about, say, Josh Lewsey?!

[drberbatov]

Danny! You Idiot, still this is not the first time he has done something stupid

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s95.htm?97,9010525

and

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/giles_smith/article3019062.ece

[mikeyg27]

Hahaha! I think I've even seen that MTV show* and said to my sister at the time "that guy looks well like Danny Cipriani". I didn't think it actually was him.


*err, because my sister was watching it, of course.

[dr beat]

mikeyg, do I recall you saying you were a London Skolars fan? If so, top result last Saturday!

[mikeyg27]

mikeyg, do I recall you saying you were a London Skolars fan? If so, top result last Saturday!

Yes I am, and yes it was! That's two weeks in a row that we've beaten NL1 opposition away from home, and I didn't think I'd be seeing even one win like taht for a good few years. NL2 will be a tough league this year but I think the play-offs has to be the minimum requirement now. Now it's just a matter of winning at home.

Alas, I can't make it to either Skolars or Quins tomorrow (damn you, prior commitments! *shakes fist*).

[aaaaaaaaaargh!]

Don't worry about Cas. The mighty, mighty Rhinos go there in a couple of weeks. They always raise their game for that one. It's like their Cup Final.

They seem to be raising it at the moment.  22-14 to Cas at the moment.  Donald has scored a hat-trick and could end up on the losing side!  Anyone watching it?

edit 30 -14 now

Fantastic, topsy turvy game at Knowsley road at the moment, too.

2nd edit - bloody hell, what a match!  Hull FC went ahead 28-22, then Saints pulled it back to 28 all, then Dykes scored a field goal, now Smith has kicked a goal to make it 30-29.  Amazing stuff

[Old Thrashbarg]

They seem to be raising it at the moment.  22-14 to Cas at the moment.  Donald has scored a hat-trick and could end up on the losing side!  Anyone watching it?

edit 30 -14 now

Fantastic, topsy turvy game at Knowsley road at the moment, too.

2nd edit - bloody hell, what a match!  Hull FC went ahead 28-22, then Saints pulled it back to 28 all, then Dykes scored a field goal, now Smith has kicked a goal to make it 30-29.  Amazing stuff

Couldn't get across to KR tonight so I spent the evening watching Cas v Leeds and listening to Saints v Hull. It was a top nights entertainment again, but really could've ended better for Hull. A (debatable? possibly according to the commentators on KCFM) penalty given in the last 30 seconds, with Hull leading 29-28 at the time, to give Saints a victory was a bit of a kick in the teeth. But for such a weakened team to put in that performance can only bode well for the future (although Saints were also missing more than their fair share of players - 15 out between the two sides). On a negative note, it sounds like Todd Byrne may well have dislocated his shoulder, so there's another one to add to the collection.

Cas v Leeds was also an extremely entertaining game, with Cas coming out well deserved winners. They scored some great tries tonight and, although Leeds will obviously have been tired after last week's exploits, Cas would have been a match for anyone with that performance.

[Gulftastic]

I told you what Cas would be like.

They could lose every game until the end of the season now and still be happy.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Heavens to murgatroyd.  Didn't see that coming...