The CaB Parents Club!

[hoverdonkey]

This may be a terrible idea, but I assume there are a few parents here and if there is a thread about a specific video game (brilliant as it is) and wrestling, then perhaps there is space for parents to talk about well, parenting.

I hope it doesn't turn into an argument between those who had and those who haven't or become a 'you know what annoys me about parents' thread, but I have little control over that. Hopefully it won't also become horrificly twee. I just thought that it might be a chance to swap tips or stories, especially (although not exclusively obviously) from a Dad's point of view.

Our little boy is four months old today, but Mrs Donkey is struggling to cope at the moment and I am fairly certain is suffering from post-natal depression. I thought that happened fairly soon after the birth, but it seems to have taken hold now. Her moods are all over the shop and she bursts into tears without warning, just seconds after appearing to be fine. Consequently, when I'm not at work, I'm looking after both of them, which is becoming fairly exhausting, especially given that I don't finish work until 1am for the next five nights. She mentioned yesterday about speaking to the health visitor which I was relieved about because I was nervous of suggesting it myself.

Does anyone else have experience of PND? For the record, Thomas is just fantastic, brilliantly behaved and so much fun to be with but he seems quite advanced already and is hugely inquisitive, which obviously makes it harder work.

I know, WE DON"T CARE ABOUT YOUR FUCKING BABIES. Taggers, go for your life, but the more viscious you are, the more pictures go up.

[Beagle 2]

struggling to cope.....depression.......moods are all over the shop....tears without warning, just seconds after appearing to be fine....

Just a typical day in a Spurs fan's life there... _(sorry)

[Ginyard]

Our little boy is four months old today, but Mrs Donkey is struggling to cope at the moment and I am fairly certain is suffering from post-natal depression. I thought that happened fairly soon after the birth, but it seems to have taken hold now. Her moods are all over the shop and she bursts into tears without warning, just seconds after appearing to be fine. Consequently, when I'm not at work, I'm looking after both of them, which is becoming fairly exhausting, especially given that I don't finish work until 1am for the next five nights. She mentioned yesterday about speaking to the health visitor which I was relieved about because I was nervous of suggesting it myself.

I'm sorry to read that HD. My wife went through the same thing after the birth of our first one. She seemed ok for the first week or so but then spent some time feeling almost suicidal. It was very tough and, like you, I had long hours of work plus non-stop babysitting to come home to so I appreciate what you're going through.

Its a difficult thing to deal with because the sense of powerlesness that overwhelmes you, mixed in with that ever-present tiredness and decreaded tolerance threshold. Do you have folks or anybody nearby?. Fortunately, my mum was around to help us out and that was a big plus, although it didn't help my wife's condition. Making her understand that it was a temporary thing and not something that was going to invade the rest of her life was important, as was making sure she got as much rest as possible.

They find it difficult to bond with the baby and that is probably the most difficult thing to overcome. We had good support from the NHS and somebody was coming out to check everything was ok every other day. I hope you're getting the same level of support. Making sure the doctor knows and is doing something to help is vital.

If its all getting really desperate and she needs someone who has been through it to chat too , pm me and my wife (who's an intelligent and genuinely sympathetic listener) could have a chat with her to try and help out.

PS: Don't worry about the taggers. We have the upper hand because we know our sperm count is real man size.

[petula dusty]

Really sorry to hear that your partner's going through this, HD. I haven't suffered from PND myself but I know it can be mighty unpleasant, especially when it should be such a joyous time.

According to this http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+postnatal+depression.htm the onset of PND usually occurs around 4 to 6 months after the birth so it sounds about right.

It's also extremely tough on you of course, especially since you're working and probably feel a lot of pressure now you're all a family. It's good that she's going to talk to the health visitor. If you have family and/or friends who can help out then take full advantage of their generosity and ask for all the help you can get.

If mrsdonkey gets time to go on the 'net there are plenty of forums out there who can offer support. Mumsnet is one of the best I think although the forum layout takes a bit of getting used to. They are very supportive and straight talking (I'd advise taking time to lurk and get the feel of the place before posting) - no 'huns', 'babes' or humongous signatures.

This is the subforum that covers depression, I thought they would have a topic dedicated to PND but it seems not http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/2100?stamp=080403193623. Here's a link to Active Conversations (like our front page) http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk?call=ActiveConversations&ts=1207248318847.

There is a test you can do online using the Edinburgh scale which is used by health professionals (I think I did it when my HV came to do Jim's four week check) http://pregnancychildbirth.suite101.com/article.cfm/do_i_have_postpartum_depression_.

I apologise if this post is a bit disjointed but Jim's trying to help me type and demanding attention as usual. I hope you both get the help and support you need to get through this. It will get better.

Oh and I would love to see pics of Tom please!

[Borboski]

November the 9th is D-Day in the Borboski household...

[Mindbear]

Can I ask something, to the parents of the board? I've been told that if I have a child I will most likely suffer from post birth psychosis given my family history. Obviously this sounds horrific, but is there support avaliable for post birth depression that is actually up to standard? What happens, do they have someone with you with the child until you learn to cope?

[weekender]

Her moods are all over the shop and she bursts into tears without warning, just seconds after appearing to be fine.

She's fine, that's just something women do.

[sirhenry]

Mindbear - I have a friend who has always suffered from depression and had a psychotic episode about 4 months after the birth of her second child. Because of her history she had discussed it before with her health worker, and when she had to go into hospital (for a couple of months) the health worker sorted out help for her partner. It all went surprisingly smoothly, which seems to have been due to developing a good relationship with the health worker. And despite her worries beforehand, it hasn't hurt her relationship with the baby.

So don't worry, just make sure that the professionals know about the possibility in advance.

[hoverdonkey]

Thanks very much for your advice and offers of help Ginyard and petula. I really appreciate it. The powerlessness thing is right because there is very little I can say to her. Luckily, I don't think bonding is a problem, she absolutely adores him, but she is just struggling mentally to cope and feels guilty about any number of ridiculous things that she has no right to feel guilty about, which obviously then adds to the guilt.

Both sets of parents live quite a long way away, but she has made very good friends with another mum who gave birth in the next room at the hospital. it was very odd, in fact. We made friends with them in ante-natal, but Mrs Donkey was due a month before. However, she was two weeks late, the friend was two weeks early and the two boys were born exactly two hours apart. Very cool.

Boborski, I hope this doesn't put you off. All the cliches are obviously true. It has been the most fantastic four months.

Mindbear, the NHS is actually very good in the post-natal support, from our experience anyway. They would detail exactly what would happen afterwards, which would be regular checks in the days afterwards and plenty of support thereafter if you need it.

Sorry, I don't want this to be a miserable thread, and in the spirit of Thomas' four month birthday, here he is about 3 weeks ago. I'm at work and it's the only pic I have available.

[Mindbear]

Mindbear - I have a friend who has always suffered from depression and had a psychotic episode about 4 months after the birth of her second child. Because of her history she had discussed it before with her health worker, and when she had to go into hospital (for a couple of months) the health worker sorted out help for her partner. It all went surprisingly smoothly, which seems to have been due to developing a good relationship with the health worker. And despite her worries beforehand, it hasn't hurt her relationship with the baby.

So don't worry, just make sure that the professionals know about the possibility in advance.

Brilliant, well, not brilliant of course, but thats a great thing to know. I'm really wanting children in the next few years, but I refuse to have them until I have enough money, security and sanity to be able to bring up a happy stable family, I would hate a child to be traumatised if this possibility actually did become a reality. The idea of having a child is the most scary thing ever, bringing up a human, to be happy and stable and to not be messed up in any way, my god, there should be tests or something before you get pregnant to make sure you're up the job.

[petula dusty]

Aaah! He's lovely HD. I note the obligatory muslin cloth on mrsd's shoulder. I'd forgotten how I also had one permanently on hand this time last year. I've never known such copious amounts of drool.

Mindbear, if such tests existed I certainly wouldn't pass especially where money, security and sanity are concerned. They all seemed to have turned out ok so far though. I have to say that it's a close call whether it's harder dealing with a small baby or a teenager though. Babies are physically exhausting but teenagers provoke a lot more mental stress. It is a huge responsibility and I'm always worrying how things will affect them later on in life. There are no guarantees though even if you start out with the best intentions. You just have to do your best and hope that, when they're all grown up and left home, they'll at least pay someone to have a drink with you and listen to your golfing anecdotes :)

Here's my Jim experiencing the beach (in Devon) for the first time last week

[Mindbear]

Well, I don't think I'm capable right now but I want to do my very very best and if I wasn't able to cope it'd be an awful thing, I don't want the cycle continuing in my family of everyone being mental and unhappy. I have a stable relationship but i'm very paranoid about not being a good parent. I think i'm probably being way over the top though, it's just so important to me to be able to do a good job. I have two friends that have had children. One at seventeen, with a man that used to hit her and she constantly argued with. Another friend got married to a 31 year old guy when she was 19, pregnant at 20 and a year later he set fire to their son to punish her for not giving him money for drugs. He's in prison now, thank god.

[rudi]

Your children are immoderately cute; don't go making me broody, y'hear?

Although whoever tagged "I just frame my sperm. It's cheaper and less hassle" is a funny fucker.

[wooly]

Sorry to hear that you're having a tough time, good on ya for starting the thread. Don't post much, but been reading this board for 7 years or so....nice to see a thread like this.

We've got a 2 year old boy, and Mrs Wooly did struggle after a traumatic birth. She talked to our health visitor who directed her to her GP and she was prescribed anti-depressants. I wasn't that keen, but it was the right thing to do and things improved immensely after that.

Also, everybody has probably told you this already, but things do get easier. I think at about six months our boy started on solids, began sleeping better through the night, and his daily (and nightly) routine fell into place. Still plenty of ups and downs, but things are better.

My biggest adjustment was the complete disappearance of any time for myself. I am a shift worker and used to have loads of time off pissing around on my Xbox and going to the cinema. That all went overnight, which was quite a shock. However our little one has just begun nursery in the past couple of weeks, so I have an opportunity to claw some time back now.

Just wait till your little one starts talking and walking.....it's fantastic. Cute pic by the way... 

[mothman]

Gosh, almost a whole page and no backlash from I-never-want-kids CaBers yet.

If my wife suffered from PND I never noticed, mainly because I had PTSD from nearly losing them both. In hindsight it seems safe to say she did have it, because she was a nightmare. She's always had the greater work ethic out of the two of us, so being stuck at home with a baby while I was at work wasn't easy for her. Especially when we were living with her parents for a few weeks initially, and she had a major falling-out with her dad (who was all fine with the idea of putting us up until he actually had to do it). I'd come home from a hard day's work and immediately take on responsibility for a) the baby, b) laundry, c) dinner, d) unpacking boxes as we moved into our new home, e) everything else. And all the while she'd sit in the lounge berating, insulting, and blaming me for everything. I was the one who ended up suicidal. The whole experience has affected me deeply even after three years, leaving me even more withdrawn than I was before.

We still love each other. I'm just not sure I love her as much as I used to. Various health issues have prevented her from trying to conceive up to now, but we're trying again for a second. She's worried though that with a minimum of four years between our daughter and any younger sibling they wouldn't have any real relationship as children (pointing to the 18 months between her and her sister, and the 4 years between me and my brother - although she has no idea what me and my bnother were like as kids, seeing only the distance now, and completely ignoring what a bitch her sister is now). But with our daughter growing so much, learning to use the toilet on her own for example (as opposed to supervised, she's been toilet-trained for a year), life has become really easy again and I'm not sure I want to commit myself for several more years of a child being completely dependent on us, taking me into my 40s. The aforementioned health issues meant at several points we were told unequivocally that we wouldn't be able to safely have any more, and we resented the decision being taken away from us since we had already discussed maybe stopping with just the one. Now we've got a clean bill of health, I'm still not sure. She's imposed a deadline, pregnant by the end of the year or forget it. But it took us wto years to conceive last time!

And, yes, it does get easier. And you do get your free time back. The problem is you find yourself actively wanting to spend it with sprog. . .

[ozziechef]

No offence hoverdonkey, but are you sure the baby's yours?

[Mindbear]

She's worried though that with a minimum of four years between our daughter and any younger sibling they wouldn't have any real relationship as children (pointing to the 18 months between her and her sister, and the 4 years between me and my brother - although she has no idea what me and my bnother were like as kids, seeing only the distance now, and completely ignoring what a bitch her sister is now).

It sounds like you've had a really tough time of it, you poor bugger, that'd test the patience of a bloody saint, so good on you for sticking around. I would say that perhaps you need to get your issues with her out the way before you have a second child though, you don't want that stress on top of already brewing discontentment.

Oh, and what I meant to say, my brother is seven years older than me, and although we're not close now (just because of religious stuff, he's in a cult) we adored each other growing up and I didn't go to bed without giving my brother a goodnight kiss and cuddle. I loved having a much older sibling, he looked out for me at school, took me to the cinema to see My Little Pony three times, I loved him so much, so her argument is a bit silly really, whatever age there will still be a relationship, I'd say it was difficult if someone is like, 18 and then a baby comes along to be their little sister/brother, but I really wouldn't let it be an issue.

[Fry]

I'd say it was difficult if someone is like, 18 and then a baby comes along to be their little sister/brother, but I really wouldn't let it be an issue.

Isn't ol' nagsy in that situation? I might be wrong.

[Borboski]

Yeah this thread is hardly making me feel very positive about life post-November... fucking hell....

[Steve Lampkins]

Isn't ol' nagsy in that situation? I might be wrong.

Yes, but shush! I don't think the taggers have caught on yet.

[wasp_f15ting]

Yeah this thread is hardly making me feel very positive about life post-November... fucking hell....

Fucking hell... tell me about it.

D-Day in the waspy household is 9th May :(

So... Parents, I am pretty much an Insomniac, but how long do babies sleep in their first year or so? Some people are cheering me up saying they sleep for 11hrs nicely, and some people are saying 4-5hrs. God I am so scared.

I am in a fairly stressful job at the moment, I wonder how much this will change things. I feel so close to ms wasp it sickly.. the body flips that baby wasp is doing at the moment are just so cool to watch. I have kind of stopped worrying about stuff I can't control, but I am just feel a bit naive as to how much of a change in my life this baby will be.

[sirhenry]

So... Parents, I am pretty much an Insomniac, but how long do babies sleep in their first year or so? Some people are cheering me up saying they sleep for 11hrs nicely, and some people are saying 4-5hrs. God I am so scared.

I am in a fairly stressful job at the moment, I wonder how much this will change things. I feel so close to ms wasp it sickly.. the body flips that baby wasp is doing at the moment are just so cool to watch. I have kind of stopped worrying about stuff I can't control, but I am just feel a bit naive as to how much of a change in my life this baby will be.

From what I remember of it, the last few weeks lead-up to the birth is the most stressful time really because it's such a leap into the unknown. After that it's just daily life that you deal with. It is a huge change (unless you're a totally selfish bastard) but never one that you resent. I know it's a cliché, but enjoy it while it lasts - you only have about 7 years to show them how to make the most of their lives. And it zips past.

As for sleep, you already know the answer - it could be anything from 2-12 hours. My first was one of the (rare) 2 hours ones, but sort of made up for it by being delightful and cheery throughout his waking hours (at least till teething started). Try to develop a sleep routine for the baby that you and ms wasp can live with, but remember that if  the baby doesn't sleep much mum will be drained so be prepared to go for long walks with the little one to give her a break.

Good luck to you both.

[hoverdonkey]

Thomas has been pretty good. He generally goes down at about 8pm, then wakes up at midnight, 4am and 7am. Mrs Donkey is breast feeding so there's not a lot of point me getting up at 4am, but I usually get him back to sleep after the midnight feed so she can go back to bed a bit quicker. That's if I'm not working.

When I say that's what he usually does, that's probably about 50 percent of the time, which is as close to a routine as you're likely to get I think. the last week has been tough because he's had a reaction to his third set of jabs, and may already be teething.

All that said, I had one of the best hours since he was born this morning. Got up about 8 and strapped him into the harness and went for a walk into Richmond Park. It was such a lovely morning and so peaceful and Mrs Donkey had a nice break too. I have a feeling that summer is going to make it so much better. He was born on December 3, with days approaching their shortest and that was very difficult.

I reckon May is a great time of year waspy - your summer will be full of early morning walks. Lovely stuff.

Boborski, don't worry too much, I could go on and on about all the good stuff but that would be rather dull.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Shaftoe Jnr due in September. I'm having to alternate reading the posts here with running away and playing Bioshock so I don't completely freak out.

[ninestonecreature]

I'm set to become a dad for the first time in early November (we've calculated the 8th or thereabouts), and I absolutely can't wait- the sleepless nights, the sudden lack of free-time and anything even vaguely resembling a social life, I'm looking forward to it all (cue derisory laughter from those who've been there and done it!) Obviously, this being my first child, my excitement is tempered by trepidation and general concern about the kind of world I'm bringing a child into (all natural paternal instinct I'm guessing), but the prospect of impending fatherhood is truly a wonderful feeling.

[hoverdonkey]

Anyone got any tips for getting him onto the bottle. He's been breastfed for the first four months but we are trying to get a bottle in him so that he sleeps a bit longer at night and also so I can feed and take the pressure off Mrs Donkey for a bit.

However, he's really not happy with formula. I'm guessing it's just perseverance and slowly getting him used to the taste.

[fanny splendid]

Expressing breast milk.

[Baxter]

Dip the teat in Brandy, no wait Spike the milk with Brandy, No wait Replace the milk with brandy.

Actually I hear that feeding babies a spoonful of salt makes then nod right off to sleep.

_{(Don't do any of this)}

[SetToStun]

Have you tried expressing Mrs. Donkey's milk and keeping that for bottle feeds? Apologies if that's not possible/practical/safe, but I'm sure I remember reading about it when STS junior was born (all 18 years ago).

EDIT: Bollocks! Again! Do you lot have voice dictation software on your PCs or what?

[hoverdonkey]

Yeah, expressing has had the same effect, so we thought we might as well try and get him on formula. He's still very attached to the breast, so to speak