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Stasi-watch

Started by biggytitbo, August 27, 2008, 01:05:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

What do we want? AIDS FOUNTAIN! When do we want it?

Now!
8 (25.8%)
Yesterday
0 (0%)
Tommorrow
0 (0%)
We're here, we're politicians and we want ID cards next Wednesday they'll be FABULOUS
10 (32.3%)
Within a feasable timescale outlined by Her Majesty's Government
6 (19.4%)
Just in time for the rapture please, it'll make it so much easier for God to sort us all out.
7 (22.6%)

Total Members Voted: 31

biggytitbo

I thought it might be a tremendous amount of fun to round up some of the latest developments in our baby-police state -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1049520/Jacqui-Smiths-Stasi-Now-council-jobsworths-demand-details-issue-fines.html
QuoteSecurity guards and town hall workers are being armed with sweeping police-style powers, it has emerged.

For a few hundred pounds, state and private sector employees can receive Home Office accreditation.

This allows them to hand out fines for a raft of offences, from dropping litter to riding a bike on the pavement.

They can also stop cars to check their tax discs, seize alcohol from underage drinkers and demand people's names and addresses.

http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn14591-surveillance-made-easy.html

Quote"THIS data allows investigators to identify suspects, examine their contacts, establish relationships between conspirators and place them in a specific location at a certain time."

So said the UK Home Office last week as it announced plans to give law-enforcement agencies, local councils and other public bodies access to the details of people's text messages, emails and internet activity. The move followed its announcement in May that it was considering creating a massive central database to store all this data, as a tool to help the security services tackle crime and terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2621163/Child-protection-database-will-be-used-to-prosecute-young-people.html
Quote
A flagship database intended to protect every child in the country will be used by police to hunt for evidence of crime in a "shocking" extension of its original purpose, The Daily Telegraph has learned...

It has always been portrayed as a way for professionals to find out which other agencies are working with a particular child, to make their work easier and provide a better service for young people.

However, it has now emerged that police officers, council staff, head teachers, doctors and care workers will use the records to search for evidence of criminality and wrongdoing to help them launch prosecutions against those on the database - even long after they have reached adulthood.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=260185&in_page_id=34

QuoteTerror laws should be used even more to snoop on the public, councils have been urged.

They have been told to 'make much more use' of rules originally brought in to catch bombers, to secretly access private phone bills and e-mails.

And please don't have nightmares, do sleep well!


Emma Raducanu

It won't be long before women are forced to wear khimars and black people will have to ride seperate buses. Vote David Cameron!

Milo

This got me thinking, "What can we do about it?" which led my mind into "Under what (if any) circumstances would people consider terrorism justified?"

Might be interesting to see if anyone has a personal 'line' beyond which they'd consider it necessary.

Though that's probably a bit beyond the remit of this thread.

Quote from: Milo on August 27, 2008, 01:18:36 PM
This got me thinking, "What can we do about it?" which led my mind into "Under what (if any) circumstances would people consider terrorism justified?"

Might be interesting to see if anyone has a personal 'line' beyond which they'd consider it necessary.

Though that's probably a bit beyond the remit of this thread.

It's an interesting thought, would lead to a great heated debate on here (hopefully).  One man's freedom fighter and all that would be the way I'd argue it.  I just don't like the way the words terrorist and terrorism are used to stifle debate, because no sane person would ever side with a terrorist or so the thinking of people who do the labelling seems to go.

Whug Baspin

It's an interesting idea. I think I've mentioned it before, but William Vollman gave it the best shot I think is possible in his 7 volume collection 'Rising up and Rising down: some thoughts on Violence, Freedom and Urgent Means'

I'd reccomend the abbridged version. Here's a bit about it from Amazon:-

Quote from: amazonThis edition of Vollman's treatise on political violence, 20 or so years in the making and completed before 9/11, abridges the 3,000-plus pages of the McSweeney's edition, an NBCC Award nominee last year. As he notes in a beautifully composed introduction, Vollman assumes political violence to be a human constant and thus addresses his attention to finding out when people use violence for political ends, how they justify it and on what scales they undertake it. Following 100 or so pages of expansive definitions, a nearly 300-page section titled "Justifications" culls an enormous number of texts and commentary, from nearly all recorded eras and locales, with all manner of excuses for killing. These Vollman brilliantly distills into "The Moral Calculus," a set of questions such as "When is violent military retribution justified?"—followed by concrete answers. The book's final quarter offers "Studies in Consequences," featuring Vollman's gonzo reportage from southeast Asia, Europe, "The Muslim World" and North America (represented here primarily by Jamaica). An appendix cites the longer edition's entire table of contents. This book's rigorous, novelistic, imaginative, sonorous prose treats a fundamental topic on a grand (and horrific) scale; there is nothing else in literature quite like it.

biggytitbo

Terrorism is a purely a loaded political term these days, rather than an objective factual description. Terrorist = enemy. Enemy = terrorist. Bit like labelling someone a witch in days gone by - it really doesn't matter if its true because it serves the bigger purpose of destroying those that dare oppose you.

What particularly worries me is the consistent thread in a lot of these developments which is handing over arbitary powers to local government and unelected civil servants which should be in the hands of the police and the security services. I wouldn't particularly trust them with such far reaching power either, but a local council clipboard monkey? The scope for abuse, incompetence and mistakes is mind boggling.

explodingvinyl

Quote from: aaaaaaaaaargh! on August 27, 2008, 01:23:27 PM
It's an interesting thought, would lead to a great heated debate on here (hopefully).  One man's freedom fighter and all that would be the way I'd argue it.  I just don't like the way the words terrorist and terrorism are used to stifle debate, because no sane person would ever side with a terrorist or so the thinking of people who do the labelling seems to go.

I'm against violence as a means to getting once voice heard. I understand why people would believe that it's the only way to get their belief noticed, but since one of my fundimental beliefs is not to be a dick and endanger other people's lives, it's not something I would ever consider.

NikDrou and I were having an interesting conversation about this last night, how people get annoyed with the political situation and yet don't do anything about it, and how it's our responsiblity to get up and change things if we're unsatisfied. That's something I agree with, but I also think that it's difficult to know what to do short of running one's own political campaign.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteTerrorist: An individual who uses violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve a result

QuoteI thought it might be a tremendous amount of fun to round up some of the latest developments in our baby-police state -

http://www.dailymail.co.u...-details-issue-fines.html

Quote
Security guards and town hall workers are being armed with sweeping police-style powers, it has emerged.

For a few hundred pounds, state and private sector employees can receive Home Office accreditation.

This allows them to hand out fines for a raft of offences, from dropping litter to riding a bike on the pavement.

They can also stop cars to check their tax discs, seize alcohol from underage drinkers and demand people's names and addresses.

http://technology.newscie...rveillance-made-easy.html


Quote
"THIS data allows investigators to identify suspects, examine their contacts, establish relationships between conspirators and place them in a specific location at a certain time."

So said the UK Home Office last week as it announced plans to give law-enforcement agencies, local councils and other public bodies access to the details of people's text messages, emails and internet activity. The move followed its announcement in May that it was considering creating a massive central database to store all this data, as a tool to help the security services tackle crime and terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.u...osecute-young-people.html

Quote
A flagship database intended to protect every child in the country will be used by police to hunt for evidence of crime in a "shocking" extension of its original purpose, The Daily Telegraph has learned...

It has always been portrayed as a way for professionals to find out which other agencies are working with a particular child, to make their work easier and provide a better service for young people.

However, it has now emerged that police officers, council staff, head teachers, doctors and care workers will use the records to search for evidence of criminality and wrongdoing to help them launch prosecutions against those on the database - even long after they have reached adulthood.

http://www.metro.co.uk/ne...=260185&in_page_id=34


Quote
Terror laws should be used even more to snoop on the public, councils have been urged.

They have been told to 'make much more use' of rules originally brought in to catch bombers, to secretly access private phone bills and e-mails.




The Masked Unit

I've often thought of starting a mega-thread called "Biggytitbo's big thread of big infringements on our liberties", but I see I've been spared the hassle!

Regarding what can be done and how far would be too far, it will take a voilent revolt as far as I'm concerned. Whether or not I'd get directly involved is another matter given that I'm nearing the stage where I'm frightened to even suggest such a thing on a public forum that could probably be used as evidence of incitement.

I think a good starting point would be to broadcast "Taking Liberties" on BBC1 primetime, and/or to show it to every schoolchild in the country, both of which will clearly never happen in a million years.

Biggy, you really ought to stop linking to stories from the mail. It lacks credibility on every single issue and you know it.


George Oscar Bluth II

I think that people who work for local government having these kind of details it what worries a lot of people. There's an argument to be made for allowing the security services, MI5, counter-terrorist police and so on access to people's phone call data to protect us from terrorists, or whatever. But local councils? There's no possible argument that could convince me that's needed.

The "town hall spies" could be an election winning issue for the Tories wanted it to be. Of course, when has a government ever repealed invasive powers brought in by a previous government?

madhair60

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 27, 2008, 02:42:00 PM
??

I think he's making a fairly laboured point about the government being the real terrorists, or somesuch.

rudi

As you've repeatedly pointed out, biggy, the biggest danger stems not from the primary usage of these powers at all, but from function creep as they're used by people and organisations for entirely different, and far less laudable, reasons.

Pinball

On the bright side, we'll soon be at war with the Russian 'Federation', presumably fighting for freedom, justice, and other pretend misinformational bullshit. Count me out.

Braintree

Quote from: explodingvinyl on August 27, 2008, 01:54:35 PM
NikDrou and I were having an interesting conversation about this last night, how people get annoyed with the political situation and yet don't do anything about it, and how it's our responsiblity to get up and change things if we're unsatisfied. That's something I agree with, but I also think that it's difficult to know what to do short of running one's own political campaign.

I agree with this but it is hard for people to get politically involved unless they toe a certain line. This line being arse kissing. How many in Labour Party or any of the parties actually care about constituents, helping people and doing their job as an MP or civil servant because they care about social issues. I'd say a few, at best. I do believe many of the current cabinet are there because "Clever people become MPs, don't they?" and joined whatever party would let them in so instead of having a political conviction they go along with whatever the most senior person is saying in attempt to get further.

biggytitbo

It's Tories or Labour, who are both the essentially the same party. So unless your political beliefs are represented in the very narrow sphere of interests these parties represent, then politics is futile and pointless as a means to change things. Individuals do have power though, but its through their economic impact and through non-cooperation, not through the ballot box. The best weapon we have to stop the creeping police state is just to say 'no' and not co-operate. If enough people say 'no', then its dead. But to do that first people need to be informed, and they need to see beyond the huge apparatus of the state that tries to brainwash us every day into thinking their interest = our interest.

boki

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 27, 2008, 10:29:30 PMIt's Tories or Labour

Err, believe it or not, there are people holding seats in the Commons who aren't members of either party.

biggytitbo

Quote from: boki on August 27, 2008, 10:41:12 PM
Err, believe it or not, there are people holding seats in the Commons who aren't members of either party.

We haven't had a non Tory/Labour government for nearly 90 years.

boki

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 27, 2008, 10:51:26 PM
We haven't had a non Tory/Labour government for nearly 90 years.

Well, yeah, but it doesn't do for those who do like to think about it a bit to give credence to this idea that it always has to be a two-horse race.  The big two have done a very good job of selling politics to us as a pantomime for 'grown ups'.

biggytitbo

There was an email that went round work on Friday saying due to new legislation we all have to provide a passport or equivalent proving that we have the right to work in the UK. That's everyone, not just new starters and its everyone, even if they're obviously British. As a born and bred Yorkshireman that has worked for my current employer for nearly 8 years I find this utterly ridiculous and extremely annoying to say the least, why is nobody allowed to use common sense in New Labour's Britain? Has anybody else heard about this?

Clone Army

Yes, that legislation wasn't new when I started work two years ago. It doesn't seem silly to me to extend those checks into the existing workforce.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Clone Army on October 26, 2008, 11:02:47 PM
Yes, that legislation wasn't new when I started work two years ago. It doesn't seem silly to me to extend those checks into the existing workforce.

So you think its ok that people who are obviously British should be forced to prove they're British? Do you think people who are obviously British should be asked to prove they're not Chinese too?

Whatever happened to having some fucking common sense?

ThickAndCreamy

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 26, 2008, 11:08:39 PM
So you think its ok that people who are obviously British should be forced to prove they're British? Do you think people who are obviously British should be asked to prove they're not Chinese too?

Whatever happened to having some fucking common sense?
Some people lie about who they truly are, not matter how much common sense you have you can't get past that barrier.

Caroline

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 26, 2008, 11:08:39 PM
So you think its ok that people who are obviously British should be forced to prove they're British? Do you think people who are obviously British should be asked to prove they're not Chinese too?

Whatever happened to having some fucking common sense?

What makes someone "obviously British"? Being white? Speaking with a British accent? It is possible to be both of those things without actually having British citizenship or a British passport.

Santa's Boyfriend


biggytitbo

Yes, I think you're right. I actually suspect the bloke who sits next to me, who has a broad Brummie accent, supports Wolves and who goes back to Birmingham each weekend to see his parents Geoff and Pat is actually a Lithuanian immigrant with fake ID. I'm sure Neil from accounts with his freckles and ginger hair who bores everyone with stories about his caravan holidays is actually a Nigerian illegal too.

Presumably If I refuse to cooperate with this they'll sack me for not been British will they?

This fucking country.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Caroline on October 26, 2008, 11:14:43 PM
What makes someone "obviously British"? Being white? Speaking with a British accent? It is possible to be both of those things without actually having British citizenship or a British passport.

What makes someone obviously British, is when they're obviously British. You know, like when someones obviously British? All my friends are British, I haven't seen their paperwork so I must have this incredible 6th sense or something. I'm pretty sure Rich opposite me in the office who I've worked with for years and years is from Halifax rather than Poland I don't now how I do it, psychic powers perhaps?

NerdBoy

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 26, 2008, 11:17:52 PM
Yes, I think you're right. I actually suspect the bloke who sits next to me, who has a broad Brummie accent, supports Wolves and who goes back to Birmingham each weekend to see his parents Geoff and Pat is actually a Lithuanian immigrant with fake ID. I'm sure Neil from accounts with his freckles and ginger hair who bores everyone with stories about his caravan holidays is actually a Nigerian illegal too.

Presumably If I refuse to cooperate with this they'll sack me for not been British will they?

This fucking country.

What a ridiculous argument. Is someone "obviously British" for having an accent and claiming to watch local football?

biggytitbo

It's not ridiculous. It's the 'you can't be too careful' mentality of this government. Well actually you can be too careful. This paranoia and suspicion that is poisoning society is also responsible for pensioners been asked to show ID to buy a bottle of stout in the supermarket and old ladies and young families been searched at airports in case they're terrorists.  Everyone's a liar, everyone's suspicious, nobody can be trusted. This bullshit is a cancer eating away at the country and if we accept it now we're giving our tacit approval for it to continue.

ThickAndCreamy

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 27, 2008, 08:20:29 AM
It's not ridiculous. It's the 'you can't be too careful' mentality of this government. Well actually you can be too careful. This paranoia and suspicion that is poisoning society is also responsible for pensioners been asked to show ID to buy a bottle of stout in the supermarket and old ladies and young families been searched at airports in case they're terrorists.  Everyone's a liar, everyone's suspicious, nobody can be trusted. This bullshit is a cancer eating away at the country and if we accept it now we're giving our tacit approval for it to continue.
Being too careful is checking to see if any illegal workers are taking up jobs and not paying taxes? It really isn't too careful biggy just a sensible idea to make sure all workers are working legally. No matter what you think just because you think someone could be British doesn't give any less reason to check them. Otherwise the only people getting checked would be of a different race and that's simple discrimination. It's a completely normal idea that you have blown entirely out of of proportion to add to your "the government is controlling EVERYTHING you do" philosophy.

Can't you see the sense with this at all? You can't just check a few people to see if they're British as it would clearly just end up being discriminatory and pretty unfair. There would be so many people who have been here for years and have adjusted accordingly to British society to seem entirely British and it's completely understandable for them to be checked. It isn't violating any of your rights and is actually a good idea. Stop trying to find absolutely anything to get riled up about or you'll just end up going insane with every thought on your mind being about how the government is watching you.