Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 01:15:38 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Stasi-watch

Started by biggytitbo, August 27, 2008, 01:05:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

What do we want? AIDS FOUNTAIN! When do we want it?

Now!
8 (25.8%)
Yesterday
0 (0%)
Tommorrow
0 (0%)
We're here, we're politicians and we want ID cards next Wednesday they'll be FABULOUS
10 (32.3%)
Within a feasable timescale outlined by Her Majesty's Government
6 (19.4%)
Just in time for the rapture please, it'll make it so much easier for God to sort us all out.
7 (22.6%)

Total Members Voted: 31

chand

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 26, 2008, 11:23:30 PM
What makes someone obviously British, is when they're obviously British. You know, like when someones obviously British? All my friends are British, I haven't seen their paperwork so I must have this incredible 6th sense or something. I'm pretty sure Rich opposite me in the office who I've worked with for years and years is from Halifax rather than Poland I don't now how I do it, psychic powers perhaps?

This is ridiculous. How the fuck could you possibly operate a system which says you don't need to check anyone who's 'obviously' British? You'd open up a situation where people were knowingly employing illegal workers and protesting that they assumed they were British because they were white/sounded like they came from Manchester. I have to check people's records because I work in construction. We have a guy here with a pretty thick Indian accent who is nevertheless British and has worked for us for 20 years. On the other hand we have guys with Irish and in a couple of cases Spanish passports who seem British. Are we supposed to check the first guy but not the others? Mrs Chand is Croatian, still lives there, yet when she speaks English she's so fluent and her accent so neutral that you'd never know where she was from (people have met her and thought she was from Liverpool, Newcastle, Manchester and Scotland among others). Yet she has no right to work in the UK.

You should either be checking everyone or checking no-one. In construction we check every employee; they have to provide either a passport or birth certificate on starting and their documents are checked every couple of years. People with foreign passports or workers' permits are checked even more regularly than that. Foreigners do usually go through more stringent checks, but to not check 'obviously British' people at all is insane.

biggytitbo

Quote from: ThickAndCreamy on October 27, 2008, 08:47:05 AM
Being too careful is checking to see if any illegal workers are taking up jobs and not paying taxes? It really isn't too careful biggy just a sensible idea to make sure all workers are working legally. No matter what you think just because you think someone could be British doesn't give any less reason to check them. Otherwise the only people getting checked would be of a different race and that's simple discrimination. It's a completely normal idea that you have blown entirely out of of proportion to add to your "the government is controlling EVERYTHING you do" philosophy.

Can't you see the sense with this at all? You can't just check a few people to see if they're British as it would clearly just end up being discriminatory and pretty unfair. There would be so many people who have been here for years and have adjusted accordingly to British society to seem entirely British and it's completely understandable for them to be checked. It isn't violating any of your rights and is actually a good idea. Stop trying to find absolutely anything to get riled up about or you'll just end up going insane with every thought on your mind being about how the government is watching you.

As I said originally, my problem with this is I've worked for this company for the best part of a fucking decade, who do they think I am for god sake? There are people here who've been here for even longer than me, most of their working life some of them, why are they been treated with suspicion like this? I don't actually have a problem with checking peoples details when you take them on but when you treat supposedly trusted long term employees like they're liars and criminals I'm not happy about it. And...how is it discriminatory for people who run businesses to make a common sense judgement about whether someone should or shouldn't provide some credentials about something? Why do we have to legislate all human judgement away and replace it with suspicion and mistrust?

Another aspect of this is the subtext. Yet again another law brought in to make it commonplace to have every aspect of our lives dependent on proving who we are and providing ID. Life would be so much easier if we had ID cards wouldn't it?

chand

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 27, 2008, 09:44:51 AM
As I said originally, my problem with this is I've worked for this company for the best part of a fucking decade, who do they think I am for god sake? There are people here who've been here for even longer than me, most of their working life some of them, why are they been treated with suspicion like this? I don't actually have a problem with checking peoples details when you take them on but when you treat supposedly trusted long term employees like they're liars and criminals I'm not happy about it. And...how is it discriminatory for people who run businesses to make a common sense judgement about whether someone should or shouldn't provide some credentials about something? Why do we have to legislate all human judgement away and replace it with suspicion and mistrust?

You can't have legislation based on 'common sense' because 'common sense' is just arbitrary bollocks which everyone interprets completely differently. Treating everyone the same seems a pretty fair way to act to me. Where do you draw the line? If you've worked for the company for ten years? Five years? One year? If you're just an all-round good egg?

The Masked Unit

It's a thorny issue alright. I can see the need for checking that people are who they say they are, but would also be annoyed if I was asked by my employer of ten years to prove my nationality.

On the one hand,while it's obvious that when you're talking about somebody who is snowy white and who talks with a strong westcountry or scouse accent, the chances of them being an illegal imigrant, although not technically impossible, is so vanishingly small that it's more hassle to check every single member of the british workforce than it is to just let the few people who are abusing the system just bloody get away with it, I can also see that there are people who, while born to the sound of Bow bells, are dark skinned and speak in less than perfect queen's english due to their parentage, whom you could possibly believe are fairly recent arivals to these shores.

I think the annoying aspect is that it's yet another example of everybody being thought of as guilty until proven innocent, admittedly on a small and not terribly important scale, but if you're somebody like me who tends to believe that we'll all eventually be visited by the jack boots one day to explain why we've been looking at anti-government material on the web, it's the kind of thing we'll look back at one day and see as one of many small increments that took us one step closer to a full-blown surveillance state.

biggytitbo

Quote from: The Masked Unit on October 27, 2008, 10:09:27 AM
It's a thorny issue alright. I can see the need for checking that people are who they say they are, but would also be annoyed if I was asked by my employer of ten years to prove my nationality.

On the one hand,while it's obvious that when you're talking about somebody who is snowy white and who talks with a strong westcountry or scouse accent, the chances of them being an illegal imigrant, although not technically impossible, is so vanishingly small that it's more hassle to check every single member of the british workforce than it is to just let the few people who are abusing the system just bloody get away with it, I can also see that there are people who, while born to the sound of Bow bells, are dark skinned and speak in less than perfect queen's english due to their parentage, whom you could possibly believe are fairly recent arivals to these shores.

I think the annoying aspect is that it's yet another example of everybody being thought of as guilty until proven innocent, admittedly on a small and not terribly important scale, but if you're somebody like me who tends to believe that we'll all eventually be visited by the jack boots one day to explain why we've been looking at anti-government material on the web, it's the kind of thing we'll look back at one day and see as one of many small increments that took us one step closer to a full-blown surveillance state.

Agree, it may seem like a bit of a minor thing but to me its symptomatic of a much wider problem which is as you say, the change in society where we are now all deemed to be under suspicion and untrustworthy until we can prove beyond any doubt that we are not. Everything the government do is based on this contempt for us.

What's making me doubly annoyed is the fact I don't have the documentation they want. I have a current driving license but that's not on the list. I need a passport and a national insurance card, both of which have long since perished and in order to get them I'm going to have to jump through hoops and possibly go for an interrogation at the DWP. All to prove I'm eligible to work at a company I've spent almost a 1/3 of my life at.

George Oscar Bluth II


Meanwhile in biggy's loft...

The Masked Unit

And in order to get a passport in a few years time (which, I might add, you'd be required to pay a handsome sum for), you'll first need to have an ID card and have your details on the NIR. Not to worry though, the government are experts at keeping your personal data safe, they've got capita or whoever on the case. Safe as houses. Nothing's ever gone missing.

Don't worry about stuff so much though; as long as you keep your papers with you at all times, the army patrols at the county borders should let you pass without too much hassle ;)

Ginyard

Quote from: George Oscar Bluth II on October 27, 2008, 10:55:01 AM

Meanwhile in biggy's loft...

There's an old man with spook gear?. That would freak me out!.

biggytitbo

I've decided I won't co-operate with this nonsense. If they don't like that they can send be back to Nigeria where I came from.

The Masked Unit

Damn right. Do they specifically suspect you of something? If not, they can fuck off.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Pinball on August 27, 2008, 08:51:38 PM
On the bright side, we'll soon be at war with the Russian 'Federation', presumably fighting for freedom, justice, and other pretend misinformational bullshit. Count me out.

No we won't. We need their gas and they need us to buy it. Plus there are too many Tories cosying up to Russian oligarchs to let that happen.

biggytitbo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3265229/Police-to-use-handheld-fingerprint-scanners-in-the-street.html

QuoteEvery police force is to be issued handheld fingerprint scanners that will allow officers to carry out identity checks on people in the street.

Fingerprinted in the street now! I'm sure there'll be lots of 'safeguards' and they'll be no danger of function creep at all.

biggytitbo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/health/3237856/Supermarket-shoppers-could-be-forced-through-alcohol-only-checkout.html

QuoteSupermarket shoppers buying alcohol could be forced to do a 'walk of shame' to a special alcohol-only checkout counter under new plans being considered by the Government.

QuoteBut those buying a selection of beer and wine along with their weekly groceries would be forced to queue twice to pay for one, then the other.

So ID raped and singled out for public humiliation just for the privilege of buying booze. New Labour, just fuck off.

biggytitbo

And here's a video of a man been stopped and bullied by the police under the anti terrorism act for talking photos on his mobile phone -

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZAY2V8gqU

Demanding a 'license' to take photos even though no such thing exists.

And another - http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/suttonnews/3804069.Schoolboy__terrorist__stopped_outside_station/
QuoteA schoolboy taking photographs of a railway station on a geography field trip was suspected of being a terrorist.

Odd that in a country where your every move is filmed, the state has a real problem with us taking pictures isn't it?

George Oscar Bluth II

That article's terrible, there's no attribution, even from the "unnamed government source" just the assertion that it's being considered. Symptomatic of the decline of the Telegraph, I'd say.

And here's a reason it'll never happen, even if they want it to:

QuoteAnd the move is likely to enrage supermarkets because of the potential cost of constructing new areas and training staff, and the potential inconvenience to customers who could simply opt to buy their drink elsewhere.

Lest we forget, Lord Sainsbury is a big donor to the Labour party.

That said, I wouldn't put this kind of shit past them.

biggytitbo

Quote from: biggytitbo on October 27, 2008, 11:18:53 AM
I've decided I won't co-operate with this nonsense. If they don't like that they can send be back to Nigeria where I came from.

My solution to this problem was simply to cut the middle man. Last night I left all my personal documentation in a pub car park.

Tina Lombardi

Half of councils use anti-terror laws to spy on 'bin crimes'

QuoteLast month The Sunday Telegraph disclosed that three-quarters of local authorities had used the act – which was introduced to help the police fight terrorism and crime in 2000 - to tackle minor misdemeanours.
The Act allows public bodies – since expanded to include councils – to place residents and businesses under surveillance, trace telephone and email accounts and even send staff on undercover missions.
Councils are also using the Act to tackle dog fouling, the unauthorised sale of pizzas and even the abuse of the blue badge scheme for disabled drivers.

QuoteSome local authorities - including West Lindsey District Council in Lincolnshire and Southwark District Council in London - are using the powers to hide cameras on lamp posts, in tin cans, or even in the homes of other neighbours in order to catch people who put their rubbish bins out early.

The Daily Telegraph disclosed in September that 5,000 local residents including children as young as eight have been recruited by councils as "environment volunteers'' to snoop on neighbours and report petty offences such as dropping litter.

I think it's already been pointed out here, but one of the scariest things is how the definition of 'terrorist' has been widened and realigned over the last few years. If you're wearing a T-shirt a policeman doesn't like, or if you're attending a peaceful protest (even if you're only 11 years old) you can be stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act. Taking photos in public is considered 'terrorist reconnaisance' and protesting outside Parliament is a crime unless the state has granted permission - despite the fact that in 2002, Tony Blair said, "I pass protesters every day at Downing Street, and believe me, you name it, they protest against it. I may not like what they call me but I thank God they can. That's called freedom".
Ian Blair said in 2005 "I don't think people should distinguish crime and terrorism too easily" which is a pretty worrying statement, really.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Tina Lombardi on November 04, 2008, 05:06:23 PM
Half of councils use anti-terror laws to spy on 'bin crimes'

I think it's already been pointed out here, but one of the scariest things is how the definition of 'terrorist' has been widened and realigned over the last few years. If you're wearing a T-shirt a policeman doesn't like, or if you're attending a peaceful protest (even if you're only 11 years old) you can be stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act. Taking photos in public is considered 'terrorist reconnaisance' and protesting outside Parliament is a crime unless the state has granted permission - despite the fact that in 2002, Tony Blair said, "I pass protesters every day at Downing Street, and believe me, you name it, they protest against it. I may not like what they call me but I thank God they can. That's called freedom".
Ian Blair said in 2005 "I don't think people should distinguish crime and terrorism too easily" which is a pretty worrying statement, really.

Pretty much all of New Labours supposed anti terror legislation has been used on the general public more than any terrorists. There use of anti terror legislation against the Icelandic government because they'd gone bust was a case in point. It;s just an excuse to bring in draconian legislation that would never otherwise be allowed if there wasn't some spurious terror bogeyman casting a shadow over proceedings.

Pinball

Okay, I'm going to jump a few steps ahead.

Sieg Heil.

biggytitbo

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081106/tuk-id-card-contract-plans-announced-dba1618.html
QuoteA plan for private firms, shops and the Royal Mail to bid for contracts to fingerprint millions of people for the new identity cards is being unveiled.

The Government is aiming to contract out the task of gathering biometric data for new passports and ID to the private sector, according to reports.

Applicants will have all ten fingerprints and their faces scanned. The data will then be passed to the Identity and Passport Service to be stored on the new, computerised National Identity Register.

There's something quintessentially new labour about the idea of been data raped like a criminal in some big white gleaming supermarket whilst doing your shopping isn't there?

Cold Meat Platter

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7712275.stm


People 'can't wait for ID cards'

Jacqui Smith says public demand means people will be able to pre-register for an ID card within the next few months.

The cards will be available for all from 2012 but she said: "I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."


--------------------------

anyone here been asking for one?

ThickAndCreamy

Quote from: Cold Meat Platter on November 06, 2008, 04:46:00 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7712275.stm


People 'can't wait for ID cards'

Jacqui Smith says public demand means people will be able to pre-register for an ID card within the next few months.

The cards will be available for all from 2012 but she said: "I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."


--------------------------

anyone here been asking for one?
I regularly protest the lack of ID cards for my local neighborhood. Finally it's happening, my grandparents have been waiting for this day to come since they were little 'uns.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Cold Meat Platter on November 06, 2008, 04:46:00 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7712275.stm


People 'can't wait for ID cards'

Jacqui Smith says public demand means people will be able to pre-register for an ID card within the next few months.

The cards will be available for all from 2012 but she said: "I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."


--------------------------

anyone here been asking for one?

Unable to convince anyone of their argument, they simple resort to making things up. Check the articles on BBC, Telegraph, Guardian, Mail the whole spectrum of opinion, and the comments people are leaving behind are against at least 20-1 with the odd comment for sounding suspiciously like either a government keyboard monkey or someone with a fresh lobotomy.

Amusingly - http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/home-secretarys-biometric-data.html
Quote
Jacqui Smith gave a speech today at midday on ID cards to an audience invited by the Social Market Foundation, at the end of the event the glass she was drinking from during the Q & A was whisked away* by a NO2ID sympathiser. This picture was taken this lunchtime - the glass is now undergoing a technical process at an undisclosed location. This will not only identify Big Jacqui's fingerprints, it will allow them to create a plastic foil stamp that will enable anyone to leave her fingerprints behind. Last March German hackers cloned the German Interior Minister's fingerprints.

Cold Meat Platter

Anyone else find these fictitous ID card enquiring motherfuckers a little too eager to prove that they are who they assert to be?
i smell terroristism
colon minus sign right bracket.



Pedro_Bear

I understand where biggy is coming from in this thread, and agree it is disgraceful that citizens have to prove they are citizens to their public servants.

Society is supposed to run for the benefit of citizens, not persecute us for breathing in and out, or why bother with it at all?

Resist.

The Masked Unit

What will be the consequences of refusing to be fingerprinted etc? Are they going to start locking up little old ladies who don't comply?

biggytitbo

Quote from: The Masked Unit on November 06, 2008, 07:16:13 PM
What will be the consequences of refusing to be fingerprinted etc? Are they going to start locking up little old ladies who don't comply?

No they won't do that, it'd be an own goal. What they'll do, or are doing more accurately, is make sure you can't do anything without ID. They'll just bully everyone into compliance - you'll be left with no choice if you want to live.


George Oscar Bluth II

It's bad enough that they want me to pay actual money for one of these things, but they also want me to go to a processing centre to give them my iris and fingerprints so I can prove who I am?

Fuck that shit.

biggytitbo

So all these braindead ninnies demanding ID card are presumably those that are constantly hassled to prove who they are because of government laws. So getting an ID card will let them prove who they are easily and everything will be great!

Man: Hello, I'd like an ID card please. I can't prove who I am and this will make it easier, The home secretary said so!!!
ID Nazi: certainly sir, have you got any ID?
Man: What do you mean, that's why I'm here to get some ID!
ID Nazi: You need to provide some basic ID so we can verify who you are and give you your ID card, anything will do.
Man: Right, so if whatever I already have is good enough proof for you, why can't I just use that to prove who I am instead of getting an ID card?
ID Nazi: errr....does not compute....does not compute....(smoke appears from his head, a loud whirring sound is heard, then his face falls opens to reveal lots of burnt out cogs and gears.)