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March 28, 2024, 05:08:12 PM

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"clever people"

Started by hotvans, April 26, 2004, 02:54:54 PM

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fanny splendid

Quote from: "untitled_london"its not in the news yet , and it may not go ahead, but as i am hoping to get a job in the e-envoy, my better half (cabinet office bod) is bringing such details to my attention.

I'm not being a cunt, but could you not go any smaller than the 'small' choice in the pull down menu? I would actually like to read what you have written!

It had suddenly occurred to me after watching Blunkett on Breakfast TV this morning, talking about the card. IT showed someone accessing the information on the card by sticking it in the PC card slot in his laptop. It also showed the same person altering the info using what looked alarmingly like a web interface!

I began to think, what if you needed to enter your card into your computer to access online services? What if we were all given the equivalent to a personal IP at birth, instead of an NI no.? Then I got carried away...

Just a couple of questions. Are they thinking of forcing people to have the cards, and if so, does this entail being arrested and strapped down, perhaps even being sedated, for the powers that be to gather their necessary info?

My god, we'll be putting people under house arrest next...

Marcus Or Relius

There were a "few of your e-mails" on the subject on BBC Breakfast Time this morning. I think every one of them that was in favour of ID Cards was some variation of "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear."

One guy suggested that anyone who can't produce a card on request should be arrested and held in a cell until they can prove who they are.

"If you have nothing to hide," he'd written, "you have nothing to fear."

petercussing

Hey, they said the same about police CCTV, and i still don't like the thought of some seedy copper eyeballing me in the street from some tiny room somewhere, even if i have nothing to hide. (Plus it got my mates nicked one time).  

I think they just put them up in order to get some extra cash from ITV, Sky and Bravo from their 'crazy' street crime programs.

Bilko

Quote from: "Marcus Or Relius"There were a "few of your e-mails" on the subject on BBC Breakfast Time this morning. I think every one of them that was in favour of ID Cards was some variation of "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear."

The Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, all those mothers who have been freed recently due to being wrongly convicted of killing their babies. These people weren't hiding anything but give examples of innocent people going to prison.

Marcus Or Relius

It's okay, panic over, David Blunkett has clarified the issue of the £2,500 fine for not carrying ID cards.

It's not a 'fine' anymore, it's a "civil financial penalty"

That's okay then.

chand

Ah, I don't mind paying if it's civil. I like to be civil.

Capuchin

Can one of these "clever people" remind me why we supposedly need these ID cards again?

Even without going into detail, the "nothing to hide/nothing to fear" argument seems to ignore the bill for over £3 billion.

How exactly will these ID cards affect terrorism, and is terrorism actually worth paying £3 billion for, compared to issues which are actually more pressing?
Apparently
QuoteDavid Blunkett has admitted the scheme is not going to directly stop the possibility of terror strikes in the UK.

But, he said, it would make a big difference to the work of counter-terrorism and security services when it comes to verifying if people are who they say they are.

How will it make a difference? Surely those checking out suspected terrorists aren't just going to go, "well your biometric checks out, on your way lad"?

The idea that it will help prevent benefit fraud and such works on the assumption that it will be made compulsory to have an ID card after the current trials, rather than just having biometric data on driving licences and passports anyway.

phes

Surely this is just another government scheme to undermine confidence. I know I feel pretty stupid every time a bouncer looks at my passport and bursts into hysterics.

Rev

Spooky applications are worrying enough, but what genuinely concerns me is the idea that these cards are being touted as more credible proof of your identity than your body itself.  They're unbreakable.  Infallible.  Conclusive.  So when the perfect fakes roll into production 30 seconds after the official launch, identity fraud will get a hell of a lot easier.

I had a brush with this kind of thing a couple of years ago:  Some cheeky cunt in Manchester had swiped my details from somewhere or other and was posing as me in order to get credit all over the city.  Christ knows how much stuff he was buying, but it was significant enough for the police to come and see me several times.  I was let off the hook very easily because he'd made a crucial mistake...  he had my surname and address, date of birth, and other bits and pieces, but only the initial of my first name.  He took a guess, and guessed wrong.  The whole thing disappeared in a puff of smoke when it became apparent that the person who had been running up debts 300 miles away didn't exist.

Thing is, can you imagine how that would have turned if the ID card system was in place at the time?  It may root out the chancers, but it WILL be broken, and when it is, it'll be taken as comprehensive proof in such situations.

untitled_london

QuoteI'm not being a cunt, but could you not go any smaller than the 'small' choice in the pull down menu? I would actually like to read what you have written!

nope your entirely right. i couldn't think of a way to include that info without it sounding like i was bragging or some shit.

QuoteI began to think, what if you needed to enter your card into your computer to access online services?

i'm under the impression that 'that' is the whole purpose of the exercise.

it was a few years ago, but the govt wanted to 'require all ISP's to store their data for 7 years'. the ISP's in short order said fuck off. the storage implications alone were ridiculous.

this was closely followed by the govt proposing that all ISPs had to hold a 'black box' for the governemt, which would allow them to store the information. this was met with a similar response.

now it seems that the govt really has a winner, the ISPs wont bear the cost, and nor will the govt. if they push this thru, it will mean 'all PC's in the UK would effectively be disabled w/o one of these cards.

sick huh!

as i said earlier tho - this has only been tabled at the moment.

MojoJojo

Quote from: "untitled_london"
QuoteI began to think, what if you needed to enter your card into your computer to access online services?

i'm under the impression that 'that' is the whole purpose of the exercise.

I was under the distinct impression that it wasn't.
Thus highlighting another Blunket lie: it will not stop credit fraud, even if biometrics were as magic as he belieeved. Most credit fraud is of the "cardholder not present" kind, and therefore the ID card has no use what so ever.

This entire thing is just bizarre. Blunket seems to have no idea what biometrics actually are, just that it is magically infalliable.

Remeber kids, the point of ID cards is just to get your biometrics is simply to get everyone's details on a database. I am 90% certain that the chosen biometric will be fingerprints or dna, as they tend to get left all over the place, and the police don't like the restriction that they aren't allowed to hold innocent peoples finger prints.

Pinball

Quote from: "fanny splendid"Imagine if the cards held your IP address, too?

Isn't it great that business will have access to all this information?
And even more wonderful that the electronic totalitarian state will.

Pinball

Quote from: "MojoJojo"
Quote from: "untitled_london"
QuoteI began to think, what if you needed to enter your card into your computer to access online services?

i'm under the impression that 'that' is the whole purpose of the exercise.

I was under the distinct impression that it wasn't.
Thus highlighting another Blunket lie: it will not stop credit fraud, even if biometrics were as magic as he belieeved. Most credit fraud is of the "cardholder not present" kind, and therefore the ID card has no use what so ever.

This entire thing is just bizarre. Blunket seems to have no idea what biometrics actually are, just that it is magically infalliable.

Remeber kids, the point of ID cards is just to get your biometrics is simply to get everyone's details on a database. I am 90% certain that the chosen biometric will be fingerprints or dna, as they tend to get left all over the place, and the police don't like the restriction that they aren't allowed to hold innocent peoples finger prints.
Blind Bastard Blunkett said that the best 2 out of 3 methods will be chosen, out of iris scan, fingerprints and facial recognition, depending on how the ongoing pilot of 10,000 sheeple goes. Britain will be the first country to have biometric ID cards. Doesn't it make you feel proud? Proud to be in a horribly controlling, freedom-bashing State.

Pinball

Given the magnitude of freedom and privacy loss the ID card (and its associated back office developments) represents, I reckon we should have a referendum.

Timmay

I reckon you could have included those 3 posts into 1. And I reckon you could stop using the work sheeple.

Pinball

Quote from: "Timmay"I reckon you could have included those 3 posts into 1. And I reckon you could stop using the work sheeple.
I reckon you could stop saying I reckon, I reckon ;-)

Frinky

I reckon you meant to type "Word".

hands cold, liver warm

Id cards would sort all this confusion out

Timmay

Quote from: "Pinball"
Quote from: "Timmay"I reckon you could have included those 3 posts into 1. And I reckon you could stop using the work sheeple.
I reckon you could stop saying I reckon, I reckon ;-)
I reckon you started it.

MojoJojo

Quote from: "Pinball"Given the magnitude of freedom and privacy loss the ID card (and its associated back office developments) represents, I reckon we should have a referendum.

A) It's not a constitutional matter, so no need for a referendum.
B) Most people would vote for it, because most people are idiots.

Pinball

Quote from: "MojoJojo"
Quote from: "Pinball"Given the magnitude of freedom and privacy loss the ID card (and its associated back office developments) represents, I reckon we should have a referendum.

A) It's not a constitutional matter, so no need for a referendum.
B) Most people would vote for it, because most people are idiots.
A) I know, I was just dreaming :-(
B) Yes sad isn't it? I'm amazed at how far the people let the government oppress them. It becomes easy to understand how the Nazis got away with it, because people are indeed docile sheep, lambs to the slaughter etc.

Mister Six

Fuck. Is there any chance of this being derailed or is it a certainty? How do they intend to take my biometrics if I refuse? Will they just tie me up or something?

Cunts. I'm going to get myself a fuckload of money saved up and piss off the moment this becomes law.

untitled_london

QuoteCunts. I'm going to get myself a fuckload of money saved up and piss off the moment this becomes law.

i agree.

cunts

and, you'd better empty the piggy bank as the trials are on and the white paper is down....

you'd better hope the house of lords wakes up....or that someone somewhere takes it to the european level and successfully challenges it.

chances of either seem pretty unlikely.

QuoteI was under the distinct impression that it wasn't.

sorry mojo, i was veering off topic - i was referring to the proposed computer-smart-cards.

All Surrogate

Quote from: "Mister Six"Fuck. Is there any chance of this being derailed or is it a certainty? How do they intend to take my biometrics if I refuse? Will they just tie me up or something?
Last I heard, it's a fine of £2,500 for non-registration.  A fine for, as someone said, continued existence.  Will you keep getting fined if you don't obey 'summonses'?  If it's a one-off, I'll pay-up to be left alone.  I think.

Quote from: "Mister Six"Cunts. I'm going to get myself a fuckload of money saved up and piss off the moment this becomes law.
Remember, they'll be collecting biometrics for passports around 2007, so if you don't want HMG to have such info, then you'll have to emigrate even before ID cards really get going.

I hate this. I hate Blunkett.  What is he doing?  He's so stupid.  A Labour government doing this!  And the Tories not actually fighting very hard.  I mean, I dislike the Tories, but they stand for freedom from government; they're just saying that Labour would make a mess.  What kind of argument is that?  I suppose Tories only really stand for freedom from taxation - socially they're repressive.  Just the Lib Dems, then.  Oh dear.  Somebody mention revolution?

Look at that.  It's got me so angry, I've gone all irrational.  Won't somebody think of the children?!

MojoJojo

Right, I'd just like to clarify what I believe is the recently proposed Blunkett ID card plan.

ID cards will not become compulsory. Although the plan suggests that this would become easy after things have been running for a while.

Passports and driving licenses will have biometric information added to them by 2003, and there will be a voluntary ID card, which will basically have the same sort of purpose as Americas "Cannot drive driving licenses".

80% of people to have biometric ID by 2013.

Police won't be able to demand ID, yet, as not everyone will have them.

People can be ordered to have an idea card, and can be registered against their will if the necessary information is known.

New legislation will make it an offence to fail to report damage to a card or a change of address.

Most disturbingly of all, IMO, The Home Secretary "has the power to make Orders to change almost every element of the proposed system."

I think they are the main points of interest in the proposed bill. Most information shamelessly ripped off The Register.

Anything I've missed?

[EDIT] Just remembered my mate saying yesterday that the US is very keen to have biometric info on all people going into the country. Maybe that's why Blair is giving Blunkett so much freedom with this, when all his other ministers oppose the plan? [/EDIT]

fanny splendid

Where are all these people who are running away, going to go?

MojoJojo

I hear Iraq is nice this time of year.

Vermschneid Mehearties

QuoteIsn't it great that business will have access to all this information?

Business will only be able to access information which they already know about us. Some details are being kept solely for use by the Home Office, though whether that's something to feel good about or not is up to you.

fanny splendid

So will this information be held on two, or more, completely independent and non-connective, separate databases, or are you going to dedicate yourself to providing a physical firewall?

Vermschneid Mehearties

Presumably if this confidential information is held by the Home Office, it'll be as easy to get to as the details of everything about every prisoner held in this country. Not very.

I don't want to seem too supportive of the government on this as I'm not neccessarily in favour of ID cards, but I'd rather wait until it gets underway before being too suspicious/cynical.