Author Topic: "clever people"  (Read 3504 times)

fanny splendid

  • Chaos Reigns
"clever people"
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2004, 12:33:22 PM »
You might be a surprised about how easy it is to get information about people. For example, have you ever seen the information held on disk by someone as harmless as Interflora? By the time it is introduced, it will be too late. As soon as it is introduced it will be considered a success, and will be pushed through to it's logical extreme. Just like the war in Iraq.

I hate to be condescending, but if you watch Newsround a little closer, you will see that not all kids who have no rights in the wider world, who have not experienced anything in the wider world, see themselves as completely apart from it.

"clever people"
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2004, 12:53:29 PM »
Quote from: "fanny splendid"
Where are all these people who are running away, going to go?

not the USA - im not going there if i have to give fingerprints just to get in - another outrageous piss take of my civil liberties - lets go to spain - their new govt seems to be having a go at a different way of ruling - despite the fact they have id cards no-one ever carries em.

Mister Six

  • Half-masted, bass-boosted, sling-backed
"clever people"
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2004, 02:00:47 PM »
Quote from: "fanny splendid"
Where are all these people who are running away, going to go?


Ireland?

Vermschneid Mehearties

  • phpBB A lesson in quantity over quality
    • http://www.theenoeffect.tk
"clever people"
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2004, 02:03:37 PM »
Quote
I hate to be condescending, but if you watch Newsround


Oxymoron.

I'm aware that businesses have records of an extraordinary amount of things about you, though I refuse to believe that they'll be able to get access to peoples biometric data, and even less- Do anything with it. This isn't Deus Ex.

fanny splendid

  • Chaos Reigns
"clever people"
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2004, 04:15:02 PM »
No, you're right, it's not a game at all.

"clever people"
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2004, 08:29:55 PM »
hehehehehe

so I'm paranoid am I?? ;-)

Oh and I'd add that ID cards will be RFID so remotely readable (like chipped pets) and potentially trackable (though you'd need detectors not far from you e.g. on the Tube, as satellite tracking is probably not viable - for now). This aspect is easily defeatable however by putting the card in a wire mesh (= Faraday cage).

I strongly hope that ID cards become the new Poll Tax-type issue.

"clever people"
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2004, 08:36:56 PM »
Quote from: "MojoJojo"
People can be ordered to have an idea card, and can be registered against their will if the necessary information is known.


I haven't had a new idea since 1993 - would an old one do? Or would the government provide one for me?

"clever people"
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2004, 10:01:12 PM »
Another angle:
Quote
Contempt for liberty

The arguments in favour of identity cards are empty and
false. The Prime Minister says there are no civil liberty
issues involved in their introduction, when he means that
nobody in his gutless Cabinet is prepared to put up a
principled fight on this issue. He himself does not know
what liberty is. Nor, clearly, does David Blunkett, who is
planning to introduce legislation that could force everyone
in Britain to have identity cards within five years.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html

Some related information which is frankly terrifying (the US government has been busy hasn't it? And this hasn't been covered by the Murdoch press surprise surprise):
Quote
Civil liberties groups campaign against biometric identification.

EPIC and a coalition of civil liberties organizations from a wide
range of countries have sent a letter to the International Civil
Aviation Organization regarding its plans to include biometric
identifiers such as fingerprints and facial scans on all newly issued
electronic passports.  ICAO met recently in Cairo to move forward on
the implementation of international standards that will require the
use of biometrics and radio frequency identification technology [RFID chips - told you so!!] in all
future passports.  The organization is working quickly with little
public outreach or consultation with privacy experts.  The letter,
organized by Privacy International, was sent to ICAO to provide such
expertise. The letter states that the biometric standard being adopted
is "fundamentally flawed" and will result in a substantial number of
passengers being falsely identified as potential terrorists or wrongly
accused of holding fraudulent passports.  The letter warns this plan
will actually lead to the first truly global database of biometric
information
.  Based on projections from current passport and travel
statistics, biometric details of more than a billion people will be
electronically stored by 2015
.  The groups believe ICAO could create
"unprecedented" security threats due to potential access by terrorists
and organized crime.

Read the letter to ICAO:

      http://www.epic.org/redirect/pi_letter.html



For more information on biometric identification, see EPIC's
Biometrics Page:

      http://www.epic.org/privacy/biometrics/

Paranoid yet? Here's more:
Quote
Snapshots

 

Coalition urges suspension of Google e-mail scanning

EPIC and a coalition of 27 consumer and privacy groups have called
upon Google to suspend its plans to deploy Gmail, a webmail system
that will scan users' communications in order to target
advertisements.  Targeting advertisements based on individuals'
discussions is an unprecedented invasion into the privacy of
communications.  Furthermore, the system retains communications for an
extended period of time, causing users to have less privacy protection
in their communications because e-mail stored over 180 days is
subjected to lower protections under wiretapping laws.

Coalition Letter Urging Suspension of Gmail:

      http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/GmailLetter.htm

Still not convinced? Try again:
Quote
ACLU Calls On Bush To Resist Creation of Secret Police

WASHINGTON - In rare agreement, the American Civil
Liberties Union today joined with Justice Department
officials and FBI directors from both the Clinton and Bush
administrations in urging the White House to resist the
creation of a domestic intelligence agency, which could
easily employ the same kind of dirty tricks the CIA uses
overseas here in the United States against American
citizens.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=15462&c=206

And to finish off, this is unbe-fucking-lievable:
Quote
Pizza delivery lists may help track scofflaws

It's dinnertime, and you're hungry and tired, so you pick
up the phone and order your favourite pizza. But you might
have just landed yourself a lot more than pepperoni and
cheese.

If you owe fines or fees to the courts, that phone call may
have provided the link the state needed to track you down
and make you pay.

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=135319

I ask myself: what sort of fucking world have we created? Perhaps it simply reflects the true nature of humanity? In which case we're doomed....

Mister Six

  • Half-masted, bass-boosted, sling-backed
"clever people"
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2004, 11:17:07 PM »
"Scofflaw."

That's one of my favourite words, that is.

Is it wrong for me to get really down and frustrated about this shit?

"clever people"
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2004, 11:48:21 PM »
Quote from: "BBC"
Home Secretary David Blunkett believes radical cleric Abu Hamza is linked to international terrorism and a threat to society.


That is exactly the reason he shouldnt be discussed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3664707.stm



Hold on...arent we at war with terrorism? Or was that a film I saw?

"clever people"
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2004, 01:02:50 AM »
tasty post pinball - a veritable meat feast - puns intended (obviously)

"clever people"
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2004, 01:52:25 AM »
Quote from: "MojoJojo"
Passports and driving licenses will have biometric information added to them by 2003,


I really hope that's a mis-print.

gazzyk1ns

  • "I don't give a shit if your dad's dead or anything else"
"clever people"
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2004, 02:03:46 AM »
I know it's irrelevant to the "2003/whenever misprint" thing mentioned above, but it's very confusing to hear different sources use the word "biometric to mean slightly different things... some publications/articles class a photo as being "biometric information".

When Pinball et al started talking about all this ID card business on here a while back I thought it was a little premature, but all this unnecesary business is being forced upon us all rather rapidly, isn't it? I don't have a criminal record and I don't plan to commit any crimes in the future, but I must say that it makes me uneasy. I'm not sure precisely why but I feel that the authorities will probably misuse the fact that they know everyone will have to carry one.

"clever people"
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2004, 05:21:33 AM »
Quote from: "DevlinC"
Ha, typical. "You can choose not to have one.... but we'll charge you £2,500". What happens once you've refused the card and paid the fine then? Are you just let off having the ID card? Probably not.


I dont intend to have the card and I certainly dont intend to pay the fine,"so that I cannot have it", so I wonder what will happen in my situation.  Maybe I'll be sent to Australia.

Its getting a bit much when you have to pay, to not have something, which your meant to have to pay for, which is compulsary.  You have to pay all ways around.

I can feel a stabbing coming on.

All Surrogate

  • Speak; don't confide.
"clever people"
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2004, 10:12:25 AM »
Quote from: "Pinball"
...
Some related information which is frankly terrifying (the US government has been busy hasn't it? And this hasn't been covered by the Murdoch press surprise surprise):
Quote
...
ICAO met recently in Cairo to move forward on the implementation of international standards that will require the use of biometrics and radio frequency identification technology [RFID chips - told you so!!] in all future passports.  The organization is working quickly with little public outreach or consultation with privacy experts.
...
....
I ask myself: what sort of fucking world have we created? Perhaps it simply reflects the true nature of humanity? In which case we're doomed....
Forget the revolution; anyone for Lagrange 4?

"clever people"
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2004, 10:24:21 AM »
If you've got nothing to hide why not? Surely we all want to act like drones in a safe predictable world?

This thread is making me most unwell.

fanny splendid

  • Chaos Reigns
"clever people"
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2004, 10:44:48 AM »
I prefer Lagrange point 5, myself, but I guess I'm just picky...

"clever people"
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2004, 10:49:12 AM »
As Gaz said this is all happening incredibly quickly. Why? Because the US has ordered everyone to do it. France has plans I know for a fact, and I'm sure most countries are, so there's no escaping it. It will happen, and within a couple of years. Basically, if you want to be economically active - job, driving, travelling - you will have to use your ID card. This is not something you can opt out of. I also don't see, frankly, how it can be stopped. And of course once implemented all hell will break out in terms of rolling out new measures and new uses of the technology.

This is electronic totalitarianism, and it's happening now.

This is not some shit sci-fi movie, this is real. Frightening huh? And the above is only what "our" bastard government is telling us. God knows what back office databases and database-linkages are being set up, together with secret police, covert monitoring via the digital CCTV network (which can do facial recognition BTW), and ID card detectors on motorways, stations, pavements. Then the tax man and customs man and police man and council and TV licence man and whoever else will get unrestricted accesss to this information and we're all screwed. The argument "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" becomes irrelevant because we will all be doing something, however small, wrong. It's like Judge Dredd raiding an apartment in Mega City One - he will find something, however small, to get you on. This also means that people will be incredibly easy to "get" if they e.g. criticise the government, or have information that could potentially embarrass the government, are a critical journalist who needs to be "pacified"/blackmailed, or even just talk to someone who is considered a dissident to the State. This is totalitarianism. Here. Now.

I also suspect that far from "protecting" us, it will lead to far more crime. The criminal elite, who clearly will have alternate identities, e.g. from the corpse of the illegal immigrant they killed who's on no systems, will get access to The Database and will wreak all sorts of havoc. How about economic profiling of burglary victims based on their tax return-recorded income? Or finding out who is associated with whom based on the new interlinkage telephone databases (as developed for mobile calls following the Omagh bombing)? Or sourcing scientists who could help with WMD development? The mind boggles. Basically those in the criminal know (the "elite") will become incredibly more dangerous.

Now I hope people won't be calling me paranoid again, because I'm not. I'm a realist, albeit one with a modicum of paranoia ;-)

"clever people"
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2004, 01:04:49 PM »
The "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument is one that annoys me beyond description.  It's always trotted out by those who clearly haven't thought for themselves, and are the self-righteous, Daily Mail-reading, middle-England, "ahh!  illegal immigrants are coming to get me!" types ... I hate to generalise, but you get the point.

The idea that a right to privacy is something only criminals seek is patently ludicrous.  Every one of us has something to hide, and most of the time its not illegal ... its simply a matter of exercising our innate right to not expose every aspect of our lives to all and sundry.

If you truly believe that you have nothing to hide, try the following:

* Write all of your correspondance, personal or otherwise, on postcards.  What do you need envelopes for?  Only criminals use them, surely?

* Dispense with clothing - completely.  Go everywhere naked!  After all, you've got nothing to hide!

* Have a tattoo across your chest which states your date and place of birth, present address, sexual preference, a complete medical history, and a list of all of your turn-ons, likes, dislikes, etc. etc.  It doesn't matter who knows any of this, it's not illegal, is it?

* Make a complete list of all of the posessions within your home, and publishg them on your own website.  Right next to your bank, credit card, loan, and all other financial details.  The world needs to know that you're not embezzling the company, right?

* Record every conversation you ever have, either on the phone or in person, and post copies to the government, and to your own website.  Surely it's okay for everyone to know what you've been saying ... you're not plotting terrorism, so what's the problem?

* Make a complete daily list of everywhere you go, everyone you interact with, and everything you do.  Submit this to the government and your website to because, as we all know, only criminals don't want the world to know the ins and outs of their day to day lives.

I know I'm being mildly flippant here, but there is a serious point.  It's not paranoia for any of us to assume that although these cards only store fingerprints, retinal scans etc. at the moment, a DNA fingerprint will be next.  It's only a matter of time.  And when that happens, there is nothing about you that can ever be private.  Given the information that your DNA can say about you, it could become impossible to get any kind of insurance ... ever.  "Well, Mr Angel, according to the DNA fingerprint on your ID card, it says that you are going to die of lung cancer at the age of 57.  I'm very sorry, but we cannot issue you with a life insurance policy".

I can say that I have nothing to hide, but it's not true ... I can say, as a Daily Mail reader understands the phrase, that I have nothing to hide ... but I have plenty to fear ...

"clever people"
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2004, 01:27:42 PM »
Quote from: "DistantAngel"
The "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument is one that annoys me beyond description.  It's always trotted out by those who clearly haven't thought for themselves...

I always say that, so I'll say this, which I also always say. Fortunately, a bloke in the pub will be able to get your card "chipped" for £20.

Quote from: "DistantAngel"
"Well, Mr Angel...

? ?

"clever people"
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2004, 02:35:14 PM »
*sings along to moonlight shadow*

All Surrogate

  • Speak; don't confide.
"clever people"
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2004, 10:35:13 AM »
Quote from: "hencole"
This thread is making me most unwell.
A rousing rendition of the national anthem will cheer us all up.  Come on, on your feet ...

Quote from: "fanny splendid"
I prefer Lagrange point 5, myself, but I guess I'm just picky...
And thus the seeds of the great 'Picky' War of 2158-61 were sown.

The panel on Question time last night seemed pretty much against them, which means it was full of "clever people" - typical BBC bias.  I found it really annoying that I was agreeing with Norman Tebitt.  FFS!

"clever people"
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2004, 11:42:10 AM »
The cheezy chat-show on BBC this morning - the one that replaced Kilroy "I hate Arabs, me" Silk's show - was about ID cards. I only bothered to watch a few minutes.

Some guy made a fairly good point about ID Cards being dressed up as some sort of magic fix to end terrorism and illegal immigrants and that a government demanding it's citizens - even those who haven't committed any crime -  submit fingerprints and such things is absurd...and was immediately told off by some blustering woman who huffed and puffed "But if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear." As was rightly pointed out, it's an empty statement that doesn't put forth any arguement, merely implies anyone who disagrees with ID Cards is obviously evil and wicked and should probably have their phones tapped and their house raided at dawn by heavily armed cops.