[muso] Cubase or pro tools

[GoochDogHigh5s]

Any ideas?

For an idiot like me, which is more user friendly?

[PaulTMA]

I bought Logic Express - which is great for a technical novice like myself.  However, I felt a bit daft when I bought a basic audio interface (TC Near Desktop Konnekt 6) to find it was bundled with Cubase.  I continue to use Logic Express for my demos, but if you don't have a (basic) interface, then why not go for this?

[The Region Legion]

I recommend Cubase as a good all rounder - maybe Logic Express if you have a Mac already. ProTools is hideously overpriced and requires that you buy their hardware to use it at all, which frankly I consider to be limiting (and even their top of the line model ProTools HD isn't particularly good considering what kind of system you could build yourself for the same costs). The irritating part is that they have a monopoly on professional studios for some reason, so if you're recording stuff and planning on taking it into a proper studio to mix later then it's almost mandatory to have it. You can always import audio files recorded in Cubase into a ProTools project of course, but it's much more of a hassle than just opening the project, obviously.

Cubase, on the other hand, does everything that ProTools can do (and in the case of MIDI, is actually better, although that could change with ProTools 8 coming out soon), the full version is only £350 or so and, as PaulTMA says, the LE version (which is still very good) comes packaged in properly nice audio interfaces. I bought a Presonus Firepod for about £300 a few years ago - 8 microphone inputs + Cubase LE. The closest ProTools equivalent is the M-Audio ProFire 2626 which retails for around £500 and doesn't include ProTools M-Powered (the M-Audio version of ProTools LE), which is an extra £250 or so.

Logic Express stands out because it comes with a massive bank of sounds, including a very nice drum machine called Ultrabeat. Usually, the more features a program like this has the worse it probably is and is just trying to make up for it. This does not apply to Logic, although I prefer Cubase and ProTools to it for purely personal taste reasons. However, if you were looking for something that out of the box provides you with a million different things to do, Logic wins hands down, although it doesn't come packaged with any recording interfaces either. Cubase comes with a few crappy synths and effects (distortion, reverbs etc) and basic studio tools (compression, EQ, limiting), ProTools comes with just the basic studio tools, although in fairness their built-in compression algorithm sounds better to my ears.

I don't want to put down ProTools too much. I do love using it - it just has a more "pro" feeling, and I can't deny that the program is excellent at what it does. But for the extra investment, I'm not convinced it's worth bothering with unless you're about to open a professional recording studio.

In summary then?

Logic Express/Logic Pro
Good if you have a Mac and audio interface already.
Lots of surprisingly high-quality instruments to play with out of the box.
Unique "one window" design (where your edit window and mixer are always on the screen at the same time - some people like it this way, I don't consider it a dealbreaker).

ProTools
Restrictive interface hardware selection (products by Digidesign and some by M-Audio only).
Expensive.
Comes with very few recording tools as standard, but those tools are of a high quality.

Cubase 4 Series
Comes packaged with many quality audio interfaces, not hardware dependant (ie. can run on both PC & Macs, unlike Logic, and doesn't require particular interfacing like ProTools).
Extensive MIDI editing.
Cheap (comparatively).
Bundled recording tools not especially professional.


I suppose if you were only recording yourself then an MBox 2 Pro with ProTools LE isn't a bad deal, but it's the restrictiveness of the format that puts me off. What if a friend comes round, you have a jam and you want to record it? Oh, sorry, only 2 inputs, we'll have to both be in mono. "Hey, why don't we get Steve to come play keyboards over this?" - "he'll have to overdub then, because we can't record all at the same time". Useless.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

I'm in the fortunate position of having all three major platforms.

Cubase was where I started - I have Cubase 4 at the moment.

It's a good all rounder. Some good instruments and effects and very good midi editing.

I've found it's more glitchy and crashes more often than the others too - and they've still not sorted out the the mixing issues I've always had with it - side chaining has always been a problem as it was non-existent till the latest few downloads and can cause quite a bit of latency if you're not careful.

But as has been pointed out - you most of get a light version of it for free when you by an external soundcard which you'll need if you're planing on making music using external instruments anyway - so you can't lose on that front.

Logic is what I use on my Mac at home. It's fantastically powerful for the price (I paid £215 for it brand new from France - although the exchange rate probably fucks up that price now) with some excellent instruments as standard, more loops than you could ever use (and hundreds you'll recognise as lots of producers are getting lazy these days - between that and Stylus) and easily the best out-of-the-box effects you'll find on any of the platforms.

It's a bit of a learning curve from Cubase (and Pro-Tools too) with some unique features which I'm still getting used to some 6 months after buying it - but it's worth it as once you get your head round it, it's perhaps the easiest to use as a sketch pad as well as a final production tool.

If you've used Garage band, you've got a rough idea of the sort of interface you'll be dealing with, but the difficulty factor is ramped up quite a lot.

However, you need a pretty fast Mac to get the most out of it, and even with 2GB memory, mine strains some times.

I don't use it however for simply chopping up audio - Cubase out performs it on that front - as the interface is more designed for instruments and loops than audio segments.

Pro-Tools however, I love.

It's not the most user friendly at first glance and to be honest, for the price you pay (which is certainly not as much as it used to be - you can get LE bundled with a mid-range M-Box for about 350/400 quid if you hunt around and even cheaper if you go for one of the smaller fewer-track M-Boxes) the instruments and effects are pretty dire. The reverbs in particular are nasty and metalic.

You can get lots of add-ons though - although the best are pricey as they're aimed squarely at the studio, not the home user market

However, for the ease of creating a mix and setting up busses and the such - it hasn't been beaten so far for me.

For example, you can grab your bass, EQ/compress it, route part of to a reverb and then compress it with a side chain from the bass drum within about ten seconds and just a couple of clicks of a mouse.

For my work as a radio audio producer, I wouldn't use either of the others.

I'm not on Pro-Tools 8 yet, so I can't comment on that, but at the moment, the midi editing is dog wank - fortunately, I don't really need that at work, so I'm good.

In essence - it depends what you want it for - but for home use, you can get a good taste of Cubase by buying a soundcard with the cut-down version bundled - which could set you back as little as 80/90 quid depending on what you want - and upgrade if you so desire later.

[Ginyard]

Logic if you're on a mac, cubase if you're on a pc. Try some of the cheaper things like Reaper as well as they might cover all your needs for way less money. I emigrated from ProTools to a Nuendo/Sadie combo for professional use a couple of years back and much prefer them. Best thing to do is just get your hands on each of them for as long as possible and see what suits you. You might like Sonar best!.

[purlieu]

Logic.  Buy a Mac and get Logic if you don't already have one.  I'm still using Logic 5 because I can't afford a Mac.  It still does absolutely everything I need it to.

[The Masked Unit]

I used Cubase for years but would never go back to it now that I use Abelton Live, which I'm in love with.

I guess it really depends on what you want to use it for? Do you just want to mess around with some loops or are you a multi-instrumentalist who wants to record lots of live stuff in conjunction with soft-synths etc?

*Not that I know which programs do which better mind; I'm just saying that if your needs are basic then all you need is basic, easy to use software.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

I used Cubase for years but would never go back to it now that I use Abelton Live, which I'm in love with.

I've tried to use Ableton a few times but can't seem to get past the idea that it's just a very exxpensive loop-scooper.

What do you use it for?

[El Unicornio, mang]

I've tried both and Acid Pro beats them hands down, so get that one instead.

[NoSleep]

But isn't Acid based around loops only? It's a DJ tool.

I'd say Logic was the one, it allows for loops plus any other method of composition, and is packed with instruments to start with from scratch, plus tons of useful plug-ins. Logic 8 is cheap, but you'll need a newer Mac. If you dig around, you can get a bargain on a copy of Logic 7.2 which will run on a S/H Mac that'll cost you much less - probably be up and running for less than £300-400 (assuming you already have an audio interface).

Logic.  Buy a Mac and get Logic if you don't already have one.  I'm still using Logic 5 because I can't afford a Mac.  It still does absolutely everything I need it to.

I know I'd be missing stuff in 7.2 now if I went back 5, but if 5 works in the latest windows then I'd recommend it be considered on the PC.

[purlieu]

When I get a new computer, I'm putting XP on it because there's no fucking chance Logic 5 will work on Vista, it's about seven years old now.  And I have a 3/4 completed album in Logic format.

[The Masked Unit]

I've tried to use Ableton a few times but can't seem to get past the idea that it's just a very exxpensive loop-scooper.

What do you use it for?

I use it as a sequencer of various soft-synths/samplers. No live instruments as I can't play any. Loop-wise, it's absolutely great for twisting a bar or two of something into something completely different.

I used to have an Akai MPC200xl which is one of the standard items of the hip-hop producers' toolkit, but I actually find drum programing in Ableton so much easier using a feature called Impluse, which is nothing particularly fancy but is very intuitive.

I'm pretty sure I'm only scrathing the surface of the feature set, and it took my ages to re-program myself from years of Cubase, but I fucking love it.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

I'm pretty sure I'm only scrathing the surface of the feature set, and it took my ages to re-program myself from years of Cubase, but I fucking love it.

Yeah - as far as I could tell, the way you can warp beats was much easier than the hitpoints system Cubase uses.

Logic's good for this too - the grove template functions are great and Apple Loops is pretty much the same as Rex and Acid file handling.

I'd love to get a good go on Ableton, but given its price I've never really had chance other than the limited demo you can download - and all dodgy version are very cleverly protected and seem to work for a few days before simply becoming really sluggish and unresponsive - which is fair enough.

[the hum]

Cubase is all I've used for nigh on 6-7 years now, so I've little idea about anything else on the market.  As others have said, good all-rounder, plus you have the choice of gazillions of vst intstruments and effects to integrate with it (and many of the freebie ones are every bit the equal of their commercial counterparts).

Actually I used Cakewalk back when I started out, which was a piece of piss to use, though the results were anything but professional.  I'd be interested in anyone's views on Sonar - never tried any version.  On paper it seems as good as anything else, and am I right in saying it has decent vst support?

[El Unicornio, mang]

But isn't Acid based around loops only? It's a DJ tool.

No, it does the same thing that Cubase/Pro Tools does, but I find the interface a lot friendlier. I recorded my last album entirely on Acid Pro; vocals, acoustics, electric guitar, VST plug-ins when needed. Very easy to use for all of them.

[Entropy Balsmalch]

Any ideas?

For an idiot like me, which is more user friendly?

Check your PMs

[NoSleep]

No, it does the same thing that Cubase/Pro Tools does, but I find the interface a lot friendlier. I recorded my last album entirely on Acid Pro; vocals, acoustics, electric guitar, VST plug-ins when needed. Very easy to use for all of them.

How about MIDI and soft synths/virtual instruments?

[The Region Legion]

How about MIDI and soft synths/virtual instruments?

Cubase is the king of MIDI and softsynth. ProTools not so much.

[El Unicornio, mang]

How about MIDI and soft synths/virtual instruments?

Yep, those too, although in that area I do think Cubase is slightly better, from the very little time I've spent doing MIDI stuff. For making guitar/"real" instruments type music though, I think Acid Pro is a lot easier to use.

[NoSleep]

Cubase is the king of MIDI and softsynth. ProTools not so much.

I reckon Logic must take the crown for MIDI and softsynths. It's got an unbelievable array of instruments packaged with it.

I was wondering whether Acid was equipped along those lines.

I know a lot of programs were superficially capable of handling any plugins that Cubase/Logic/ProTools, but when you look under the bonnet the bit handling wasn't on a par with these, thus the equivalent operation using the same plugins would be of a lesser quality. I wondered if there had been any catching up on this front (without going on a google search - I've tried that and no such information was there to be had quickly).

Choosing your package well is important as it could be the one you'll be using the rest of your life. I've been on the Logic path from its beginnings: all the way back to Steinberg's Pro 16 on the Commodore64 - Gerhard Lengeling's first sequencer before branching out on his own company C-Lab and introducing Creator & Notator, both of which I used and preferred over the then very sluggish Pro 24 & Cubase. I think Cubase only got the edge in those days because Creator was seemingly uncrackable, so Cubase use spread like a virus through the computer music community - drum'n'bass was built on cracked versions of Cubase.

One thing I've noticed is even staunch users of (more recent) Cubase (Audio) only need a short time on Logic to end up preferring it, in my experience over the years.

[The Region Legion]

One thing I've noticed is even staunch users of (more recent) Cubase (Audio) only need a short time on Logic to end up preferring it, in my experience over the years.

This is very true, a lot of people I meet say Logic is the shit, and I can't deny it's an excellent program. Never really clicked with me though, and the fact that I'd have to buy a shit hot Mac at some ridiculously overpriced cost to run it means I'll never bother. Cubase works great for me, and it cost me less than a MacBook Pro to build the PC and buy the full version of Cubase 4 and an audio interface. If you already have a Mac then Logic Express has to be bought, though - hell, have both.

The reality is GoochDog, that you've opened a can of worms by even asking. Everyone's got a favourite, and they'll all do the job just fine as long as you have the self-discipline to learn and the talent to make something good. You won't make anything in ProTools that you can't make in Cubase by virtue of the system.

[El Unicornio, mang]

The reality is GoochDog, that you've opened a can of worms by even asking. Everyone's got a favourite, and they'll all do the job just fine as long as you have the self-discipline to learn and the talent to make something good. You won't make anything in ProTools that you can't make in Cubase by virtue of the system.

Quoted for truth. Whichever one you find easiest to use is best, they all get exactly the same end result.

[NoSleep]

This is very true, a lot of people I meet say Logic is the shit, and I can't deny it's an excellent program. Never really clicked with me though, and the fact that I'd have to buy a shit hot Mac at some ridiculously overpriced cost to run it means I'll never bother. Cubase works great for me, and it cost me less than a MacBook Pro to build the PC and buy the full version of Cubase 4 and an audio interface. If you already have a Mac then Logic Express has to be bought, though - hell, have both.

Nah, mate. Forget about Logic Express. It's good for home but the little (and big) things missing end up being an annoyance. Now is the time to get a cheap copy of the full Logic Pro 7.2 from ebay: and that will run on a Mac (like mine) that cost a mere £100, as the system requirements aren't as restrictive as the current Logic 8.

[Ginyard]

I'd be interested in anyone's views on Sonar - never tried any version.  On paper it seems as good as anything else, and am I right in saying it has decent vst support?

I've worked with people who use it and these days its as good as any other. In some areas, like 64 bit use (how long are the others going to take for fuck's sake?!) and track templates (a feature that should have been introduced years back it seems so obvious) it was the trailblazer. Plus it has ACT so if, like me, you use loads of midi controllers for live/realtime use then its very useful and is a feature other developers are only just beginning to catch up with. However, I've never got on with it personally as I just don't like the GUI. No idea why, I just don't.

[The Region Legion]

Nah, mate. Forget about Logic Express. It's good for home but the little (and big) things missing end up being an annoyance. Now is the time to get a cheap copy of the full Logic Pro 7.2 from ebay: and that will run on a Mac (like mine) that cost a mere £100, as the system requirements aren't as restrictive as the current Logic 8.

Well then, that's an even better idea. What's Logic 7 missing from Logic 8, and what's missing from Express 8?

[NoSleep]

Well then, that's an even better idea. What's Logic 7 missing from Logic 8, and what's missing from Express 8?

There's very little missing from 7.2, if anything. I've found a couple of things apparently missing from Logic 8 that I find useful (like the Audio Configuration page), and of course the you need a dongle to run 7.2, so that's missing as well. Also missing is compatibility with older versions of OS X. That said, you need at least 10.4 to run Logic 7.2, and 7.2 is definitely a better bet than 7.0, but the (seemingly) impossible-to-find 7.1 (I tried) still runs on 10.3. And you need a fast new machine to run 8 on. They've given 8 a new look, which wasn't that necessary, given the ease of toggling between 9 choices of view already. And 8 has been completely rewritten, so there's not as much backward compatibility. It seems to me that Apple have lowered the price and reduced the security on the software knowing that people will have to buy some expensive new hardware from them to run it.

Things that are missing from Logic Express include several soft synths, some great plugins and, for some plugins, Express has cut-down versions. The EXS24 built-in sampler player can't be edited in Express (major pain), reducing its power considerably, and there's no Audio Configuration page (as said before, something I would miss). You are also restricted to using outputs 1-12 only on any audio interface you may connect to it.

[James "End-To-End" Benton]

Is there a programme where you can kinda draw the waveforms with a cursor? That would be a neat idea

[Ginyard]

Is there a programme where you can kinda draw the waveforms with a cursor? That would be a neat idea

Do you mean for controller data?. Or are you talking about as an aid to creating sounds, as in additive synthesis?. They all do the former and something like Absynth will let you accomplish the latter.

[James "End-To-End" Benton]

The latter - Absynth will do very nicely. Thanks very much!

[The Masked Unit]

Ableton Live 8 out soon

http://www.ableton.com/pages/live_8/announcement/home