Author Topic: Videogaming v2.0 [post individual threads for games]  (Read 112216 times)

chand

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2010 on: February 12, 2010, 01:36:10 PM »
Well I guess it's just what you're used to. I hate FPSes played with a mouse and keyboard. My left hand gets cramp with my fingers poised over the non intuitive at all and too spaced-out keys. Aiming with the right thumbstick has never been a problem. In fact I think it feels more like you're aiming a gun that way than it does just pointing on the screen with a mouse, easier though that may be.

I started playing FPS games on PC (Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, in the days when the height of console FPSes was the piss-awful Corporation on the Mega Drive), but I prefer it on consoles now. Partly because I went through a phase where my PC was too shit to play the decent games so I played them all on consoles, but other reasons too. The aiming is the one aspect of keyboard'n'mouse that's 'better', in that it's more accurate and quicker, but I don't particularly like the feel of it, something about just essentially clicking on things to make them die seems unsatisfying to me. For movement I vastly prefer thumbsticks, and I find keyboards less intuitive for everything else; weapons mapped to the number keys or the scroll wheel on a mouse seem awkward, much prefer games that have, for example, a four-weapon selection mapped to the D-pad, or even a two-weapon switch mapped to a face button.

I do have the same problem with not really feeling like playing games on the PC too; my screen is a 17" monitor and I sit really close to it because of having to be able to reach the mouse/keyboard, and find it a bit nauseating for playing for any length of time, whereas when I play PS3 I'm not sat miles away but I can recline and play it on a bigger screen.

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2011 on: February 12, 2010, 04:06:01 PM »
How could having responsive, accurate controls "break" Call of Duty?  What does that mean?  I played CoD4 on PC, and, while I found it generally pretty dull, I never thought, "this game could really be spiced up if only my input device was less suitable and perhaps supplemented by auto-aim".
I've never felt even slightly 'officey' playing a game just because the tools are the same; a controller doesn't make a game feel more 'game-like' to me.  Perhaps it's your preference for less 'visceral' PC games that gives you that feeling.  Not that I'm criticising you for your preference -- 'twitch FPSes' aren't my favourites either, I prefer stealth games and the odd RPG.  But I'm thinking you haven't played many or any PC shooters if you think having a better control method would break them.  Any game made too easy by your in-game avatar accurately carrying out your instructions is a pathetic specimen of 'fake difficulty'.

More accurate does not equal better. Mario would be a pretty dull game if your controller actually interpreted what you intended to do, rather than what buttons you actually pressed. The whole process of going from what you want to happen and converting that to a sequence of button presses/stick movements/mouse movements is part of the challenge in action games.
Obviously the controls need to be good enough that you can get it down to muscle memory, but if you can line your crosshairs up on the head of any enemy on the screen in half a second, like you can with a mouse, that's just making it too simple. If an enemy pops up somewhere I am not expecting them to it should take me some time to bring my gun to bear. The skill is in not getting surprised, not in having whack-a-mole trained reflexes.

I'm not even sure if it's very relevant - what good action games (thinking FPSs and third-person) have been released recently?

When I referred to office I meant my office - or the spare room where the computer lives. I can play games on a console downstairs next to MrsJojo or upstairs by myself.

I won't argue about the price of a gaming PC because I can't be arsed to look it up. One thing I would say is that if you don't do PC gaming you don't even need a desktop PC - you can get a nice simple laptop to do everything else. Which is what I do (with one older laptop now sitting upstairs in the "office" as fileserver thingy. At some point I might buy a monitor and keyboard for it to make working from home a bit more practical).

Halo did make a massive difference to console FPSs - before that they were a fairly niche market. I'd also say that console FPSs really didn't click with me until I used a Xbox pad. I get by fine with a PS one now, but for ages I just found console FPS impossible, but it just clicked with a Xbox pad.

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2012 on: February 12, 2010, 05:30:46 PM »
Quote
HappyTree: "non intuitive at all and too spaced-out keys"?  What on earth?  Do you mean the 'WASD' layout?  In what world are those keys 'spaced-out'?

Yeah, but that's only for moving and on this French keyboard sometimes the keys don't map properly as the easiest positioning would be ZQSW. And then there's the "change weapon" or "look behind you" buttons . Basically I'd repeat the above point that the 4-way D-pad is better for that.

I used to play PC games a lot, in the 90s, and made do with the fact that for Elite I was going to be hunting around the keyboard a bit. But now I have a lovely, ergonomic controller with trigger buttons for firing things or accelerating and braking my car.

You could always get a controller for the PC anyway, so this is not much of an argument. And I did enjoy Oblivion which I got for PC as I could download patches that modded the game in amusing ways, plus there were loads of cheat codes you could enter into the control panel.

I've also played loads of point and click adventures. They tend to work better on PC, but I played Syberia on Xbox and wasn't bothered about moving the pointer with the thumbstick. In fact one of the best games I've ever played was a PC game: The Longest Journey

So I guess the real reason why I prefer consoles is the same reason
why I prefer standalone multitrack recorders and guitar pedals to PC music-making. They just work without having to fiddle around so much. I get a nice sense of satisfaction on loading up an Xbox game, knowing all that happens is the thing comes on and loads the game and I play it. Everything just seems slightly slicker on a console because it has to be to be idiot-proof. And I'm an idiot :-D

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2013 on: February 12, 2010, 05:44:18 PM »
As someone who plays on PC and consoles, I'd say the superiority of PC FPSs is somewhat overstated. Thumbstick aiming makes a perfectly decent substitute for the mouse and, unless the game really needs every single key, I find a joypad preferable to a keyboard. Many is the time I've buggered up on a PC game because I hit the wrong button.

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2014 on: February 12, 2010, 06:52:24 PM »
I played Return to Castle Wolfenstein on the PC for many many an hour back in the day and found it to be far more intuitive than using a controller, the freedom of 'head' movement is of paramount importance in shooters and I often find it, well not 'lacking' but restrictive on consoles. Aiming is far quicker and more accurate with a mouse as it requires pretty minimal movement to perform some freaky manoeuvres.

That said I would like a thumbstick for the WSAD buttons sometimes. A thumbstick for the left and a mouse on the right would be interesting.

Another occasionally annoying thing with controllers is getting diagonal commands to register properly for my gimpy hands. I find myself attempting a sequence of moves and end up doing something wanky as it registers my move as a 'down' or 'left/right', that's restricted to fighting or side on games usually though so it's less of a concern these days.

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2015 on: February 12, 2010, 07:54:50 PM »

I would like a thumbstick for the WSAD buttons sometimes. A thumbstick for the left and a mouse on the right would be interesting.


Surely this is the ideal. But rather than a mouse you'd have something like the wiimote, so you don't need to rest it on a flat surface. I've always thought the Wii hasn't quite got the technology responsive enough for this yet, but surely it's only a matter of time.

I guess the problem you'd have is that the right hand controls would have to be used for both 'looking' and 'aiming', so there'd have to be a way of toggling between the two.

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2016 on: February 12, 2010, 08:28:59 PM »
Well in console FPSes the right stick is for looking and aiming at the same time. You aim where you look. Left thumnstick + right wiimote sounds interesting.

falafel

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2017 on: February 12, 2010, 08:32:01 PM »

samadriel

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2018 on: February 13, 2010, 01:24:01 AM »
More accurate does not equal better. Mario would be a pretty dull game if your controller actually interpreted what you intended to do, rather than what buttons you actually pressed. The whole process of going from what you want to happen and converting that to a sequence of button presses/stick movements/mouse movements is part of the challenge in action games.
Obviously the controls need to be good enough that you can get it down to muscle memory, but if you can line your crosshairs up on the head of any enemy on the screen in half a second, like you can with a mouse, that's just making it too simple. If an enemy pops up somewhere I am not expecting them to it should take me some time to bring my gun to bear. The skill is in not getting surprised, not in having whack-a-mole trained reflexes.

More accurate unquestionably equals 'better'.  Your keyboard/mouse isn't "interpreting" anything (except in the most literal sense), it's doing the thing that you tell it to do (how is that not what's happening with Mario?  Does he usually jump when you press the jump button?  I hope so!)  Saying you're just clicking on stuff with kb/m controls is as reductive as saying that writing is just putting a bunch of letters on paper.  You've got to take cover, you've got to anticipate enemy movement, you've got to compensate for bullet spread (plus games like STALKER have variable movement speed for weapons, making it even less like 'just clicking'), you've got to pick the right weapon for the right time, you have to play the videogame and fight the enemy, not fight the thing in your hands.  "The skill is in not getting surprised, not in having whack-a-mole trained reflexes."?  Those reflexes are useless unless you're "not getting surprised".  Anticipation is a factor whether you're playing with a responsive input, or an unresponsive one.  Any FPS made too easy just because its controls work is a shit game.  Any FPS which relies on control resistance as a crutch for challenge is a shit game.  Thankfully, most of them aren't that crude.

Quote
I'm not even sure if it's very relevant - what good action games (thinking FPSs and third-person) have been released recently?

Where do I begin?  And why restrict ourselves to what just came out?

Quote from: HappyTree
and on this French keyboard sometimes the keys don't map properly as the easiest positioning would be ZQSW.
No worries, remap them.  Job done!
Quote
And then there's the "change weapon" or "look behind you" buttons . Basically I'd repeat the above point that the 4-way D-pad is better for that.
Mousewheel's fine for weapon changing; so's a d-pad... as long as you only have four weapons.  With kb/m, you generally don't need a 'look behind you' button (certainly never in first-person games), but those can be handy in, say, GTA, so they assign 'look behind you' to middle-click.

Quote
You could always get a controller for the PC anyway, so this is not much of an argument.
Yes, for the handful of games which are best with a controller, you can plug one into a PC; I do that for Streetfighter IV (in fact that one's best with a stick, but I can't afford that).  Bit more of a bitch trying to do keyboard/mouse on most consoles...

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2019 on: February 13, 2010, 01:43:00 AM »
Not all games allow you to remap them plus resting your hand on the keyboard is painful after a while. Grip a controller!

samadriel

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2020 on: February 13, 2010, 04:37:39 AM »
There isn't a word for how few mainstream PC games don't let you remap controls (and when I say 'mainstream', I mean, 'every single PC game which isn't some teensy little Flash widget on a website').  In fact, I can't recall a single game which disallows the remapping of WASD; I vaguely recall some shit console port recently which restricted certain keys, but even then the directional keys were still mappable.  Meanwhile, my hands can be comfortable on a keyboard for hours, but a sustained bout of 360 controller usage gives me a monster hand-cramp.

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2021 on: February 13, 2010, 11:13:26 AM »
Again, it's what you're used to though sam. If I sat at my desk for hours playing games, I'd get chronic back and neck ache.

I did play a lot of PC games as a teenager and enjoyed mouse and keyboard for FPS, but I couldn't do it now. Ridiculous as it sounds, my body wouldn't allow it and such is the improvement of console graphics and controls (the 360 controller is superb in IMO), sitting on a sofa with a big telly and not having to worry about graphics cards and RAM, wins hands down.

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2022 on: February 13, 2010, 03:17:19 PM »
There isn't a word for how few mainstream PC games don't let you remap controls (and when I say 'mainstream', I mean, 'every single PC game which isn't some teensy little Flash widget on a website').  In fact, I can't recall a single game which disallows the remapping of WASD; I vaguely recall some shit console port recently which restricted certain keys, but even then the directional keys were still mappable.  Meanwhile, my hands can be comfortable on a keyboard for hours, but a sustained bout of 360 controller usage gives me a monster hand-cramp.

Remapping keys is my main reason for not playing PC games much, that and I rarely have a decent enough PC. Since I'm left handed I literally have to remap every single key in the game and for some games, like Morrowind and Oblivion, that can be a real pain in the arse. Especially if the game doesn't remember what you mapped and still gives you control hints with the original keys on it. Shift to run is especially annoying. A nice big key for right handers but I need to remap to : or ? which means I can often slip my little finger off it sometimes and fuck up.

And don't get me started on games that reset mouse buttons in the menus. Fucking wankers. All it takes is for a developer to rethink their control mapping and offer a one option solution to change it around with one click. But no cunt does it.

madhair60

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2023 on: February 13, 2010, 03:20:40 PM »
Not all games allow you to remap them plus resting your hand on the keyboard is painful after a while. Grip a controller!

There's a freeware program called Joy2Key that (I'm pretty sure) works with everything.

Edit:

Just found out Neversoft will be closing in April, and Guitar Hero will be given to Vicarious Visions.

Feel a little sad.  I must have an insane number of hours logged on the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series.  Those games really hit the spot, and I've never skated in my life.  R.I.P Neversoft.

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2024 on: February 13, 2010, 04:09:58 PM »
That's precisely the problem, though, madhair. "There's another program you can download that will make this work" leads invariably to "oh, it didn't work, maybe I can try something else"

Switch on console.
Put in game
Play it

That is why they are better :)

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2025 on: February 13, 2010, 04:17:10 PM »
They both serve their respective purposes

Consignia

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2026 on: February 13, 2010, 04:22:22 PM »
Just found out Neversoft will be closing in April, and Guitar Hero will be given to Vicarious Visions.

Feel a little sad.  I must have an insane number of hours logged on the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series.  Those games really hit the spot, and I've never skated in my life.  R.I.P Neversoft.

I concur with those feelings. I loved the Tony Hawks games, even though I can't even stand on a stationary skateboard IRL. They went a bit off kilter though when after the underground games. The latest one I played Proving Ground was an utterly devoid of fun game which I gave up on almost straight away. Sad the company's going, though.

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2027 on: February 13, 2010, 04:47:10 PM »
Quote
They both serve their respective purposes

Yeah, one is for printing out Word documents and the other is for playing cool games! :-p

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2028 on: February 17, 2010, 08:41:05 PM »
Sonic 4 footage "leaked":

http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/28004

Bearing in mind this is not even a beta version, this still looks VERY promising.  Assuming "Splash Hill Zone" is going to be the first level (nice move making the opening level Green Hill-style like the old Megadrive games!), looks like there will be a healthy dose of platforming with speed bits, and not just a simple run-fest.  This is good.

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2029 on: February 17, 2010, 09:10:10 PM »
Bearing in mind this is not even a beta version, this still looks VERY promising.  Assuming "Splash Hill Zone" is going to be the first level (nice move making the opening level Green Hill-style like the old Megadrive games!), looks like there will be a healthy dose of platforming with speed bits, and not just a simple run-fest.  This is good.

Looking good, although I hope they change the in-game Sonic sprite to the one they use on the loading screen. He's got the proper whizzy legs and everything.

EDIT: It looks like Sega have asked 1UP to take down the original video, but you can still see it here:

Sonic 4 ep. 1 [First gameplay video by 1up]

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2030 on: February 17, 2010, 09:30:43 PM »
Looking good, although I hope they change the in-game Sonic sprite to the one they use on the loading screen. He's got the proper whizzy legs and everything.

The current in-game Sprite does that now at top speed.  Doesn't look much different to his Unleashed sprite though.

The use of the "newer" Sonic has upset a sizable chunk of the Sonic fanbase for some reason, with online campaigns for Sega to put some kind of "classic" option as a skin.  I personally don't mind it.  It certainly isn't as ugly as the lanky Sonic '06 version with permanent angry face.

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2031 on: February 17, 2010, 11:14:57 PM »
The use of the "newer" Sonic has upset a sizable chunk of the Sonic fanbase for some reason, with online campaigns for Sega to put some kind of "classic" option as a skin.  I personally don't mind it.  It certainly isn't as ugly as the lanky Sonic '06 version with permanent angry face.

It still looks wrong to me - he doesn't spin fast enough in the air either. I'm just confused as to why they'd have a big 'classic' Sonic on the loading screen at the start of the level, then replace it with the lanky version (which looks ominously polygonal rather than sprite-based).

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2032 on: February 18, 2010, 12:15:42 AM »
Looks like Sonic Retro have managed to bag some high-res screenshots of Sonic 4 and it looks a whole lot better than that video suggested:



Nice!

HappyTree

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2033 on: February 18, 2010, 12:20:50 AM »
Looks like a "proper" Sonic game.

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2034 on: February 18, 2010, 01:27:13 AM »
Don't shoot the messenger.

http://reviews.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/1849/Aliens-vs-Predator/p1/

I'm probably more gutted then youse.

MojoJojo

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2035 on: February 18, 2010, 09:28:30 AM »
Hmmm, I think the Sonic franchise must be in trouble if fans are glad the new game looks like Donkey Kong Country (circa 1994).
Is it planned to be a full price release at £40? It looks like it should be an Xbox Live Arcade game.

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2036 on: February 18, 2010, 09:34:15 AM »
Hmmm, I think the Sonic franchise must be in trouble if fans are glad the new game looks like Donkey Kong Country (circa 1994).
Is it planned to be a full price release at £40? It looks like it should be an Xbox Live Arcade game.

Have you not seen any recent Sonic games then? Each one has been anywhere between pitiful and shite, and full price, while this new game looks likely to wipe the floor with all of them. I find the idea that a game has to be cheap just because it's 2D pretty shocking.

MojoJojo

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2037 on: February 18, 2010, 10:02:26 AM »
Have you not seen any recent Sonic games then? Each one has been anywhere between pitiful and shite, and full price, while this new game looks likely to wipe the floor with all of them. I find the idea that a game has to be cheap just because it's 2D pretty shocking.

Well I was thinking about the franchise, and I know it's been pretty shit since the early games. The new game is going to be released 20 years after the first, and fans are glad that it's going to be the same game with graphics updated to a 1994 standard.

Are you honestly saying that if Sonic 4 is just a 2D platformer, you wouldn't be pissed off paying £30-40 for it? I'm not saying 2D games have to be cheap, but they should do something to justify that sort of price. Companies are making 2D games and selling them for £10 and at least covering their costs - for Sega to spend the same amount on development, and expecting to sell it at what, 5 times the profit margin*?

The game might be WORTH £40 in the amount of enjoyment it provides, but Sega can still be gouging their customers. In the same way a sandwich in an airport might be worth £5 if you're starving, but you're still getting ripped off.

Anyway, the Sonic fans who are left must be masochists, so they'll probably get some sort of sexual thrill fom the thought of Sega gouging them.

*Hmmm, talking about profit margins probably doesn't make much sense with games does it?
 

Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2038 on: February 18, 2010, 10:11:16 AM »
Hmmm, I think the Sonic franchise must be in trouble if fans are glad the new game looks like Donkey Kong Country (circa 1994).
Is it planned to be a full price release at £40? It looks like it should be an Xbox Live Arcade game.

It is being released (in episodes) as an Xbox Live Arcade game as well as the PS3 and Wii equivalents. Looks good to me.

Jemble Fred

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Re: Videogaming v2.0
« Reply #2039 on: February 18, 2010, 10:12:59 AM »
Anyway, did you know that they charge £50 for every bastard stinking Halo game that comes out? £10 would be an insult.