"6/10", "It's Comedy With L - plates" - David Davis Reviews The Day Today

[Parkin]

The guests on Genius are - as Jemble Fred pointed out - wasted. At least on INSSW you get to know a little about them, on Genius it's just "Well that was alright/ a bit stupid/ utterly useless".

I'd disagree with that, actually - rather, I'd argue that, insane ideas from members of the public aside, Genius entirely lives or dies by the quality of its guests. The Johnny Vegas episode, for example, is head and shoulders above the rest of the TV series because he took the format and ran with it, going off on a couple of tangents and, well, being Johnny Vegas. I'm sure Frank Skinner had some laugh-out-loud moments too. At the other extreme, you can't really expect Jonathan Pryce to give you 25 minutes of constistently high-level riffing. Of the radio episodes, I've got cheeky recordings of the Neil Innes and Stewart Lee shows, and they're as high quality as you'd expect.

To my mind, the two problems with Genius on TV are the fact that, firstly, TV gives the members of the public the opportunity to gurn embarrassingly and otherwise interrupt proceedings (there was hideous example of that on the Vegas show actually), and, secondly, they're booking Catherine Tate. Bang, that's a Tate diss right there. Maybe it's rose-tinted glasses from listening to episodes of the radio show though, but I don't think it's rubbish by any means.

[Jemble Fred]

Funnily enough, it was the Innes one that first really made me blow my top at what a waste of a great man's time that format is.

I do however understand that Gorman is a perfectly pleasant person.

[Parkin]

The man would make an excellent son-in-law.

Actually, Neil Innes would make an excellent father-in-law. Maybe I just want a family, you know like a real boy.

[An tSaoi]

I'm sure Frank Skinner had some laugh-out-loud moments too.

Not really. He's usually quite good at making an impact on panel shows etc. even if he's in a very small capacity, but he just seemed uncomfortable and too polite to say so. There was very little value that he could add to proceedings. There's no point to be made. You can't make a topical joke. Even the laziest most piss-poor comedian won't be able to awkwardly shoehorn in some of their standup routine.

You might as well just use regular people, or better yet, just let Gorman be the judge. Turn it into a sort of Dragon's Den thing with just him reviewing the inventions (which are really shit actually. In the Skinner episode two guys were trying to define the opposite of a fork. That's neither genius nor an invention, and Skinner came across (rightly so) as thinking it was all a but stupid and pointless).

[Jack Shaftoe]

jakethunder said:

Is Marcus Brigstock any relation to the other Brigstock - Dominic is it?

Marcus is Brigstocke with an 'e', Dominic is Brigstock without an 'e'. I vaguely know Dominic, and am fairly sure they are not related, although I guess you would keep it quiet if you were, even to the point of dropping a letter from your surname. But I'm pretty sure they're not.

[An tSaoi]

If i were a relation of Brigstocke I'd kill myself for being from the same genes.

[evelyn_blake]

If i were a relation of Brigstocke I'd kill myself for being from the same genes.

I'd just try and use his influence to get a fairly well paid job at a prominent production company. Jesus, you're missing out on a load of dough with this killing yourself response.

[The Masked Unit]

I walked right past Marcus Brigstoke at the Natural History Museum last Sunday. I'm absolutely convinced he tried to catch my eye in a "Oh, he looks about the age of somebody who would know and like me. If he sees me perhaps he'll acknowledge me and I'll feel good about myself" kind of way. Naturally, I didn't give him the satisfaction, and he was in fact lucky that I didn't openly sneer at him, although having said that, he's quite a big bugger.

[Retinend]

I even didn't mind that he didn't like the Smiths, because he's such a perky chap you can imagine he'd never experienced any of the emotions contained in a Smiths song and just found it baffling. Far worse was Brigstocke, who claimed to be a huge Smiths fan, utterly failing to explain the hardly unfathomable lyrics of This Charming Man:

Brigstocke "Morrissey's on a hill, and he sees a punctured bicycle and it makes him feel like a loser for noticing it" (huh?)

Havers: "And in this charming car, this charming man...so Morrissey's driving a car?"

Brigstocke: "Yeah".

I hated that. Literally all they did was read out the lyrics and then pause as if to say "hey, whatever that means". Morrisey is a great lyricist so I have no idea what all that sneering was about. What I hate about that kind of snobbery is that if someone like Havers read Ulysses and didn't understand a chapter, or saw a Rothko and didn't enjoy it, they'd take it on faith that it did have a meaning behind it, but pop lyrics must be either pretentious or nonsense if they can't be immediately understood. That lyric always made sense to me - I always thought it was the narrator's punctured bicycle, and the 'charming' man had picked him up. The stuff about returning the ring doesn't make much sense to me, but that's no reason to dismiss them. /rant

Having said that, I thought Havers came well out of that episode. I liked how much he enjoyed the Big Mac.

[Johnny Townmouse]

The stuff about returning the ring doesn't make much sense to me, but that's no reason to dismiss them. /rant

I always assumed that this was the charming man requesting that a sexual favour be returned. Like passing the conch. Our protagonist is ignorant of these rituals and has to be cued, unlike the charming man who knows so much about these scenarios.

He said "return the ring"
He knows so much about these things

Of course, the ring could be taken quite literally. It's the protagonist's turn to offer his 'ring' and receive.

[Retinend]

it would make a lot of sense if the narrator was a woman - a city slicker decides to seduce her; pampers her with luxuries and pretends to be her friend, telling her to reject her lover's marriage proposal so he can have her for himself. the same-sex thing throws a spanner in the works.

I've decided just now that 'the ring' is metaphorical, and it just means to reject "the jumped up pantry boy"s love in favour of him.

It's the protagonist's turn to offer his 'ring'

What a wonderful turn of phrase.

[All Surrogate]

I think the obvious interpretation would be that the ring is an engagement ring that the charming man is telling the punctured-bicycle man to return to the shop, instead of proposing.  That is, to embrace his homosexuality/bisexuality and not be bound by heterosexual conventions.

[Johnny Townmouse]

I think the obvious interpretation would be that the ring is an engagement ring that the charming man is telling the punctured-bicycle man to return to the shop, instead of proposing.  That is, to embrace his homosexuality/bisexuality and not be bound by heterosexual conventions.

That is what I always assumed it meant when I was 14. That sounds passive-aggressive, but isn't meant to be.

[Howj Begg]

Or it's as in zoology, a request to 'present'.

[Retinend]

I think the obvious interpretation would be that the ring is an engagement ring that the charming man is telling the punctured-bicycle man to return to the shop, instead of proposing.  That is, to embrace his homosexuality/bisexuality and not be bound by heterosexual conventions.

Yeah, that makes sense.

edit: in that case who is the jumped up pantry boy?

[Famous Mortimer]

I thought it was "jumped up country boy". And it shows that discussing Smiths lyrics is about a billion times more fun than discussing Marcus Brigstocke.

[Johnny Townmouse]

I thought it was "jumped up country boy". And it shows that discussing Smiths lyrics is about a billion times more fun than discussing Marcus Brigstocke.

Personally I hope Marcus Brigstocke ends his days very soon in an M3 pile-up.

[All Surrogate]

When I say "obvious", I don't mean that it's the obviously correct interpretation, just the one that I think is the least complicated.  Trying to uncover meaning in songs is often purely conjectural, and there's the suspicion that a lot of the time the words were chosen to fit the meter, rather than to express some deep point.

Case in point: "jumped-up pantry boy who never knew his place" is a quote from the film Sleuth.  Is it simply a phrase that had stuck in Morrissey's head?

I'm not sure who it refers to, so I tend to think of it referring to both men, neither of whom 'knew their place': one in the sense of uncertainty, the other in certain nonconformity.  With that identification, then the bicycle can be seen as a cypher for a desperate commitment to bisexuality.  Its puncture and the encounter with the charming man would be the conclusion of the other's vacillation, and a confirmation of internal knowledge: "he knows so much about these things".

[Retinend]

^ post of the week

[Quietly Pissangel]

The fact that Marcus Brigstocke didn't even mention sexuality when trying to explain the song is a testament to his intense shitness.

Perhaps someone should email this thread to Nigel Havers - he seemed genuinely interested in Brigstocke's fumbling attempts to articulate himself, and I'd hate to think of him missing out on The Smiths for the rest of his life.

[All Surrogate]

If jennifer's post is accurate, then, although no interpretation can be said to be wrong, Brigstocke's interpretation is wrong.

[jennifer]

I'm really enjoying this discussion.

And my post, though not a word for word transcription, was pretty accurate. Definitely he accused morrissey of observing a bicycle, feeling like a wuss for observing a bicycle, and driving a charming car.

[Talulah, really!]

the bicycle can be seen as a cypher for a desperate commitment to bisexuality. 

Sometimes a bicycle is just a bicycle!

I've always thought of "This charming man" as a series of stills from an old black and white, kitchen sink, it's grim up North film of the Fifties and Sixties.

Punctured bicycle
On a hillside desolate
Will nature make a man of me yet ?
When in this charming car
This charming man

The narrator is out cycling when he gets a puncture on a desolate hillside hence he is willing to accept a lift from a stranger. The bicycle also points to a working class protagonist whereas as the man with the car is obviously wealthier and more sophisticated, even his car is "charming."

Also there is a whiff of the old fashioned idea of manly physical activities being a cure for what used to be called a Nancy boy. So by being getting a puncture whilst out cycling he either has to rough it and walk home or repair the bike which might be viewed as a messy, practical manly task.

The song is suggests to me that the narrator is uncomfortable with his homosexuality in line with the climate of the times.


Why pamper life's complexities
When the leather runs smooth
On the passenger seat ?

There is the hint that the charming man is coming on to the narrator, recognising him for what he is (ie homosexual) which both frightens and exicites the narrator who rather than worry about it wishes to surrender to the sensual, physical NOW, hence the heightened awareness of the leather of the seat. Leather again hinting at wealth and decadence. Pamper is a verb with overtones of feminising indulgence, again the hint of the feminine nature of the narrator, he is also the one being seduced.

I would go out tonight
But i haven't got a stitch to wear
This man said "it's gruesome
That someone so handsome should care"

I feel we have jumped forward in the relationship now. The narrator and the charming man are now lovers.
"I haven't got a thing to wear," is a cliché usually thought of as coming from a woman but here it appears to refer to the narrator reinstating the idea of him being the more feminised in the relationship, also again highlighting his lack of wealth. The "it's gruesome that someone so handsome should care," line to me suggests an older, more worldly man trying to compliment his younger insecure lover. Insecure about appearing to be less wealthy/fashionably or appropriately dressed to appear as an equal to his charming man.

"A jumped-up pantry boy
Who never knew his place,"
He said, "return the ring"
He knows so much about these things
He knows so much about these things

Jump forward in the relationship again, this time to the end. Now the narrator is being put back in his place. Has he asked for or assumed too much? Does he feel he is now on an equal par with this more sophisticated wealthier charming man? Has he Pygmalion style outgrown his patrician lover, who threatened with losing him tries to put him back down? (It reminds me of the end of "The killing of Sister George" somewhat, the character at the start who appears to have everything ends up with nothing.)

"Return the ring" is an interesting expression to use. Normally we hear this in the context of an engagement being broken off and the woman returning the ring to signify the end of the relationship, so perhaps again it alludes to the feminised narrator. I tend to think the "He" of the final lines is not the charming older seducer but that the lyric is changing from first person to third person and now it is the narrator who knows so much about these things and that the song is about the getting of wisdom, of a sort, he who started the song unsure and powerless is now the one in charge of the relationship.

However there is enough ambiguity throughout the lyric for numerous other interpretations. (Apart from Mucus Bigcock's obviously, that's just completely wrong!)

[Retinend]

Here's the Havers/ Smiths clip for download/stream (ignorance any firefox warning - the site's fine)

click: http://www.freewebtown.com/crustclock/haversonsmiths.mp3

[All Surrogate]

Sometimes a bicycle is just a bicycle!

Ah, come on!  How often do you get a chance to use a sentence like that? ;)

I've always thought of "This charming man" as a series of stills from an old black and white, kitchen sink, it's grim up North film of the Fifties and Sixties.

Morrissey was a big fan of the films and plays of Sheelagh Delaney; "I haven't got a stitch to wear" comes from A Taste Of Honey, which is a 'kitchen sink' film.

Pamper is a verb with overtones of feminising indulgence, again the hint of the feminine nature of the narrator, he is also the one being seduced.

Yes, and taking that further, another way of looking at the song would be that it operates in a thoroughly homosexual milieu, with the narrator being conflicted over his sexual role within homosexual relationships.  Whether to be 'riding the bicycle' or 'being driven in the passenger's seat'.  The song can be seen as the narrator's recognition of his desire to be buggered.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I think this show is more enjoyable than what Room 101 has been recently. If anything it should be more varied and less negative and by that token much better.

Hugh Dennis' episode was quite fun I thought.

Obviously I'd crack my head open on a really massive sharp thing before seeing a tory have a go at one of my favourite comedy shows.

[neveragain]

I thought the David Davis Day thingymabob was really going to tickle my hatestick, but he's just a dull old ditherer who doesn't understand surrealism. Now, Rory McGrath's opinions on Fawlty Towers - there's some uninformed, detestable bilge. From what he was spewing out, it sounds like he's watched two episodes whilst sleeping and it really doesn't display much of a sense of humour on his part. 'Yes, that's a good joke' he said of the 'You invaded Poland' line.. well, why not actually watch some other episodes, you bearded ninny.

[Retinend]

I thought the David Davis Day thingymabob was really going to tickle my hatestick, but he's just a dull old ditherer who doesn't understand surrealism. Now, Rory McGrath's opinions on Fawlty Towers - there's some uninformed, detestable bilge. From what he was spewing out, it sounds like he's watched two episodes whilst sleeping and it really doesn't display much of a sense of humour on his part. 'Yes, that's a good joke' he said of the 'You invaded Poland' line.. well, why not actually watch some other episodes, you bearded ninny.

McGrath might be useless, and as good as Faulty Towers is, I didn't actually find anything particularly uninformed or wrong about what he said. He just had no appreciation for the slapstick or (admittedly antiquated) Teuton-bashing.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Someone could always remind him of Chelmsford 123 that at times contains jokes Fawlty Towers would've considered 'a bit last week'. Nice though it was.

I don't think that his involvement by default makes him unable to criticize Fawlty Towers if that's what he wants to do but it's strange considering his gags always seem incredibly old fashioned.

[gloria]

I'm really enjoying this discussion.

And my post, though not a word for word transcription, was pretty accurate. Definitely he accused morrissey of observing a bicycle, feeling like a wuss for observing a bicycle, and driving a charming car.

I've a feeling Brigstocke knew this was bullshit when he said it but did so for a cheap laugh.  Never underestimate a comedian's ability to discard reason or mock something laudable in the scrabble for an easy audience-pleasing joke.  The alternative would be to have a sensible conversation about a subject they care about and that's more than a lot of comedians can handle when they're on stage.