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Gary McKinnon and UFO's and the CIA etc,

Started by Danger Man, November 26, 2009, 09:52:43 PM

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Danger Man

Gary McKinnon is going to the USA soon where they will waterboard him and give him a lethal injection to show they are the most loving country in the developed world.

All because he likes UFOs

QuoteComputer hacker Gary McKinnon faces being tried in the US after requests to block his extradition were refused, the Home Office has confirmed.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson told Mr McKinnon's family he could not block the move on medical grounds.

Glasgow-born Mr McKinnon, 43, who has Asperger's syndrome, is accused of breaking into US military computers. He says he was seeking UFO evidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8381961.stm

Japanese people say 'YOU-foe' by the way, with the stress on the 'you' unlike Brits who say u-f-o.

Not that that will help Gary, a completely innocent schmuck who just happened to be able to hack into top secret websites by typing '1234abcd' or something into his laptop.


Sherringford Hovis

My Dad says "You-Foe" too - he'll be sooo cross when I tell him that he's Japanese, the silly old racist.

little kev

they     should team up to extract revenge.    hack the system and vaporize conneticut.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Danger Man on November 26, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
...Not that that will help Gary, a completely innocent schmuck who just happened to be able to hack into top secret websites by typing '1234abcd' or something into his laptop.
Not according to Keith Vaz, who could never be described as an opportunist - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229403/Ministers-Gary-McKinnon-job-says-senior-Labour-MP-Keith-Vaz.html

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Alan Johnson had done so well, probably the longest any serving New Labour home secretary has gone without being deservedly called a cunt. But now the label is thoroughly deserved. Thanks for selling out some poor dopes life you fucking twat.

Jack Shaftoe

That and sacking Nutt. It's like he was saving up a whole run of 'I'm a cunt' cards, so he could lay them all out on the table, just as the game was finishing.

vic spanner

This is fucking horrible. I was on the demo outside the US embassy last year - both my partner and my best friend have Asperger's, it's one of those times when the government does something really vile and it actually feels quite personal.

Danger Man

I've done a bit of trolling in my time (not on this site, I should say) and I'm a bit mystified how Gary can claim to hack the likes of DARPA from a laptop and then claim the [banned troll] defence.

(AKA I'm a bit anti-social and like computers, please give me a symptom in the next DSM-IV and everybody ignore how that list is growing day by day to include every emotion possible)

The Widow of Brid

Quote from: vic spanner on November 26, 2009, 10:17:57 PM
This is fucking horrible. I was on the demo outside the US embassy last year - both my partner and my best friend have Asperger's, it's one of those times when the government does something really vile and it actually feels quite personal.

He didn't get his diagnoses until late last year, well after everything was under way. Like yourself I have a personal connection with Asperger's, but I'm putting a huge question mark over this. Particularly given how sketchy adult diagnoses can be even under the best of circumstances.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

For those at Leeds uni (or nearby) prof Nutt is giving a lecture at the university as part of a 'sensible drugs policy conference'. It costs a fiver though and may have possibly already sold out.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 26, 2009, 10:37:35 PM
For those at Leeds uni (or nearby) prof Nutt is giving a lecture at the university as part of a 'sensible drugs policy conference'. It costs a fiver though and may have possibly already sold out.

Has he learnt nothing? The first lecture should be free and then he should start gradually increasing the price.

biggytitbo

#11
If its the yanks we simply bend over and let them shaft us, with our ludicrously 1 sided extradition treaties with them. This gimp will now be thrown to the wolves, not because he's actually caused any real harm, just because he showed how lax their security was. Shameful really, will we ever stand up to the Americans?

Sony Walkman Prophecies

I think its a fiver for the full conference, i was kind of interested because im definitely on message on their manifesto. But it does seem like abit of a faff about; and id have to talk to people in tea-rooms. I suck.




Still Not George

Quote from: The Widow of Brid on November 26, 2009, 10:36:48 PM
He didn't get his diagnoses until late last year, well after everything was under way. Like yourself I have a personal connection with Asperger's, but I'm putting a huge question mark over this. Particularly given how sketchy adult diagnoses can be even under the best of circumstances.
He's probably got dyslexia too. Diagnosed halfway through his first year of uni.

Nah, by all accounts he's a quite far-spectrum Aspie (as opposed to a [banned troll]), he's just orbited in nerd cycles for most of his adult life so no-one noticed until his brief got him a psychiatrist. I know a goodly few of 'em, and I figure the other codey types on here probably do likewise.

What pisses me off about this isn't the Aspie bit, but the excuse of "we have to hand him over based on our treaty with the US." Except they quietly ignored the fact that the US doesn't fucking reciprocate that treaty; we're just supposed to hand people over like good little bitches, but if someone's a US citizen, then HELL NO, YOU CAN'T HAVE 'EM! Fuck that shit, right in the ear.

Still Not George

Holy shit I think the planets just aligned. Is it 2012 already?

Sony Walkman Prophecies

I dont think ive ever known a programmer who's been an aspie, but i have known at least half a dozen if not more who've been functioning sociopaths: "People? why should i care about them?"

Maybe that does factor into aspergers though, im not entirely sure.

Still Not George

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 26, 2009, 10:53:09 PM
I dont think ive ever known a programmer who's been an aspie, but i have known at least half a dozen if not more who've been functioning sociopaths: "People? why should i care about them?"

Maybe that does factor into aspergers though, im not entirely sure.
Not really, but I do know what you mean.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 26, 2009, 10:45:27 PM
I think its a fiver for the full conference, i was kind of interested because im definitely on message on their manifesto. But it does seem like abit of a faff about; and id have to talk to people in tea-rooms. I suck.

I refer you to Armando Iannucci's conference discussions small talk.

Baxter

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 26, 2009, 10:53:09 PM
I dont think ive ever known a programmer who's been an aspie, but i have known at least half a dozen if not more who've been functioning sociopaths: "People? why should i care about them?"

Harsh but fair.

More generally computer crime is a strange thing to legislate against, I seem to recall the computer misue act having provisions for prosecution of anyone if they accessed and disrupted a computer within the UK along with similar stipulations for someone in the UK who access a computer anywhere for the same purposes. I may be fuzzy.


Marty McFly

If this was Hollywood he'd be employed by the government to prevent any more UFO hacking.

With hilarious consequences.

Still, who knows what will happen at the trial.. if the defence lawyer happens upon this thread and uses [banned troll] as a mitigating circumstance, well, we could be on to a winner here Trig..

The Widow of Brid

Quote from: Still Not George on November 26, 2009, 10:49:27 PM
Nah, by all accounts he's a quite far-spectrum Aspie (as opposed to a [banned troll]), he's just orbited in nerd cycles for most of his adult life so no-one noticed until his brief got him a psychiatrist. I know a goodly few of 'em, and I figure the other codey types on here probably do likewise.

That's perfectly plausible (To briefly pander horribly to stereotypes I suspect anyone whose spent any decent amount of time in IT or the sciences could name half a dozen or so).
In retrospect a lot of my doubt was probably a reaction to reading a bunch of quotes from his people which, while highly emotive, had fuck all to do with Asperger's and temporarily forgetting that being effective if inaccurate is pretty much their job.

I find myself in the awkward position of being on the same side as his supporters, but very uncomfortable with their tactics. Not that that really matters in the grand scheme of things.

vic spanner

Quote from: The Widow of Brid on November 26, 2009, 10:36:48 PM
He didn't get his diagnoses until late last year, well after everything was under way. Like yourself I have a personal connection with Asperger's, but I'm putting a huge question mark over this. Particularly given how sketchy adult diagnoses can be even under the best of circumstances.

I understand the scepticism, but I think I'm right in saying that he was diagnosed by Simon Baron - Cohen, who certainly knows his stuff when it comes to autism. It's not difficult to imagine how an aspie might get so focussed on using a PC to look for UFOs that it would lead to this. And if he is on the spectrum, the consequences of extradition to the US are almost unimaginably serious, so why not err on the side of caution? The plausibility of the diagnosis aside, it's obviously wrong to extradite him anyway.

Danger Man

For me, personally, the most shocking aspect of the case is the fact my mother started talking about the bloke.

When my mother leaves her world of reality TV shows to talk about current affairs then I know it's serious.

Does anyone believe the guy is innocent? I've heard one theory (brace yourself, biggy) that Gary McKinnon is an innocent patsy who was given the software by (insert name of current scariest intelligence agency here) and they used him as a cover to get access to the American networks. Could this be true?

Or was it just pure luck that the head of Darpa's avatar was a dalek and Gary guessed the password was 'exterminate' on his third attempt?


biggytitbo

I don't know and I am a bit skeptical about his diagnosis. What really bothers me here is how we dutifully hand people over if the Americans snap their fingers yet if it was the other way round they wouldn't do the same. Or if he was french.

Or perhaps your on the right lines Danger, maybe he isn't just some saddo who embarrassed the American military but a deep cover agent for the Chinese intelligence.

An tSaoi

The guy (allegedly) broke into almost a hundred US military computers. Could somebody explain why everyone feels so sorry for him? Or is it just the extradition thing (which I'll admit is a bit dodgy) that they're taking issue with? He knew what he was doing, and he should face the consequences, Asbergers or not. It's not like he accidentally hacked into all those computers.

That said, the 70 years he might be facing in jail is too harsh.

biggytitbo

Quote from: An tSaoi on November 27, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
The guy broke into almost a hundred US military computers. He knew what he was doing, and he should face the consequences, Asbergers or not. It's not like he accidentally hacked into those computers. Could somebody explain why everyone feels so sorry for him? Or is it just the extradition thing (which I'll admit is a bit dodgy) that they're aking issue with?

That said, the 70 years he might be facing in jail is too harsh.

There's something in that An, but I still not comfortable with us handing over people to the Americans on such a 1 sided basis, especially for something they did in the UK when the punishment in the US is likely to be incredibly harsh.

An tSaoi

When you put it like that I agree with you, but the way some people are going on about the case you'd think he was completely innocent and should be let off with not so much as a slap on the wrist. It's a dangerous precedent alright (if you're gaining access to US computers does that count as committing a crime on US soil?), but to be honest, he had it coming.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: An tSaoi on November 27, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
The guy (allegedly) broke into almost a hundred US military computers. Could somebody explain why everyone feels so sorry for him? Or is it just the extradition thing (which I'll admit is a bit dodgy) that they're taking issue with? He knew what he was doing, and he should face the consequences, Asbergers or not. It's not like he accidentally hacked into all those computers.

That said, the 70 years he might be facing in jail is too harsh.

It has been claimed - and I'm not saying that this was the case or is an excuse for what he did - that the security was incredibly lax and in some cases it was the equivalent of using 'password' as a password. I know people say 'yeah, but it's NASA, they would have tighter security,' this isn't necessarily the case – work by security experts like Bruce Schneier can make scary reading into how fucking stupid some computer users are when it comes to security.

Also, I think it's worth considering the case of Kevin Mitnick – a lot of the charges were never proven. In some cases, companies claimed he had caused millions of dollars of damage but in court the prosecution didn't have to prove it – why would a company lie?

Mitnick was in prison for over four year before his trial – and out of this, he was in jail for something like 2 or 3 years before they actually charged him with anything.

For the first eight months, he was in solitary confinement  - know why? Because a judge was persuaded – and I'm not kidding – that just by whistling down a phone (a la phone phreaking), Mitnick would be able to launch nuclear missiles.

Mitnick claims that his hacking had little to do with computing prowess and was largely to do with manipulating people in providing information that he was able to access systems.

biggytitbo

Cyber crime is all such a new area that it does sometimes feel as though that authorities don't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to handling the crimes. I mean, if someone in Russia had hacked into the Pentagon, what could the US do? Fuck all probably. And as Ignatius said, whats the standard of proof here? There's hardly any precedent set, so they're just making it up as they go along, and because were usually talking about the military here and 'national security' those with the worst nigthmares are usually the ones that prevail.

SetToStun

Quote from: Ignatius_S on November 27, 2009, 12:57:33 PM
It has been claimed - and I'm not saying that this was the case or is an excuse for what he did - that the security was incredibly lax and in some cases it was the equivalent of using 'password' as a password. I know people say 'yeah, but it's NASA, they would have tighter security,' this isn't necessarily the case – work by security experts like Bruce Schneier can make scary reading into how fucking stupid some computer users are when it comes to security.

When Richard Feynman was at Los Alamos working on the Manhattan project, he gained a reputation as a safecracker by opening safes all over the compound - including the big, ultra-secure safe used by the base commander. He allowed people to think he could pick any safe lock when, in fact, all he did was find out from the manufacturers' own documentation what the default combination was for each range of safes they supplied. In most cases, it had never been changed. Just to repeat that: the people responsible for the design, plans, construction and detonation of the world's first atomic bombs couldn't be arsed to change the factory defaults for the combinations on the safes containing the plans of a nuclear bomb. I wouldn't be at all surprised if passwords like "password" still get used today. P4ssw0rd! if strict security is in place, I suppose.

Yes, he must have known what he was doing was wrong, but what was his intent and what damage did he actually do? Important factors that will no doubt be properly addressed (or ignored) if and when he goes to trial in the US justice system.