The Greatest Band Ever ?

[Johnny Yesno]

That's a very facile comparison. I doubt you're even sincere about saying "there is no difference, it's all the same". I can see a big difference in busking in the UK in kilts and the nightly festivals in Morocco. The two films I've seen of the squares presented no dressing up in traditional garb for tourists, and the crowds seemed dressed the same as the musicians, and there was little evidence of tourists; it seemed like a local affair. And the music was powerful stuff. Oh, the music!

[YT]Moroccan music vid[/YT]

I'm more interested in how this sort of event is different from a gig or a rave. People don't dress up in traditional garb at those events to impress tourists either. They do, however, get together to express some kind of musical solidarity.

[Mob Bunkhaus]

"Be realistic, everyone does ads &c &c."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buPctKFyDn4#t=1m21s

This thread is great and Nigel is a forum treasure.

(Oh, the jump-to-time thing doesn't work. 1m20s, for the impatient).

[NoSleep]

I had to come back for this:

No - I was being perfectly sincere.  It's only a facile comparison if you have some sentimental notion of the lives lead by the people in the video you posted being extensively different to our own.

Traditional Celtic music is performed every Saturday night all over Scotland and Ireland.  In places where tourists gather, it's dolled up for tourists.  When it's for consumption by locals, it's not.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4599957824691541788&ei=FN0bS4SbJMKu-Ab2sKmLBg&q=ceilidh&hl=en&client=firefox-a#

In that case they are similar in their difference to the average westerner in holding onto something of their own musical culture. There's nothing like that in Surrey.

Nor, going back to Sublime Frequencies series (the Moroccan ones were a single example), would either the Moroccans or Celts have much in common with the Tuareg, or the people of the Niger Sahel, the latter appearing to live in abject poverty.

[NoSleep]

Whether this is a bad thing is extremely difficult to figure out. In a sense all music is defined by the available technology. "The western form of song" also grew out of other elements that pre-date the manufacture of sheet music. That's not to say that music storage and duplication didn't fundamentally affect the way western music turned out.

If anything, the keyboard has had just as great an influence on western music as music storage, with the direction it took us in deciding what tuning system to adopt. Adopting the twelve tone equal temperament system allowed us to have completely transposable polyphonic music. The question is whether pianos forced a very useful system of polyphony on composers, or whether composers were excited by this idea and pushed for more access to this solution.

Undoubtedly, we in the west have a more distant relationship with music. This has been both a benefit and a curse of abstracting music in the way we have. Music storage and duplication methods have allowed us gradually to replicate performances for more and more individuals. No longer are people limited by geography or wealth to take part in particular musical events as they were in the past. Even the act of committing music to storage has become part of the art form. It is no longer just a record of a performance.

On the other hand, the manufacture of music has tended to devalue it. Works of visual art still command value as they tend to be unique, much as musical performances of the past were. Even having to go to a specific place at a specific time to view visual art imbues it with value. Music's problem is that not only has it lost much of its monetary value but that it is increasingly being viewed as just entertainment. We rather smugly assume that because we have abstracted music from ritual that somehow we're not involved in a ritual at all when we listen to it. What has actually happened is that we have commercialised what is now quite an elaborate ritual that celebrates the power we have over music as well as other elements of our existence. At the same time we've become more self-conscious about taking a sonically active part in the ritual, preferring instead to "leave it to the experts".

Yes, the modern symphony orchestra performance is founded on the idea of replication. It is the zenith of the industrialisation process, where man demonstrates his ability to create the same product time after time. This self-congratulation may be misplaced but it cannot be denied that industrialisation is firmly wound into our culture. What we fail to notice is that the music of many other cultures is just too complex to score and that is why replication is low on the list of priorities.

We've also forgotten that the way we treat orchestras these days is quite a modern phenomenon. Even the understanding of Bach's work as having been very mechanical in nature is incorrect. At the time he was composing it was understood that musicians would add their own flourishes and that these would not be specified by the composer. There was even a time when orchestras would repeat sections of music if they got a warm reception (read as: the audience stopped talking amongst themselves to start cheering). Compare and contrast with the expectations of a modern symphony orchestra audience to sit down and STFU.

Great post! There's a lot that I agree and would like to add to this. Later.

[CaledonianGonzo]

In that case they are similar in their difference to the average westerner in holding onto something of their own musical culture. There's nothing like that in Surrey.

A quick Google of the phrase 'Surrey Folk Club' suggests otherwise. 

http://www.lewesarmsfolkclub.org/LAFC/Sessions.php

Perhaps, in the admittedly unlikely instance of film-makers from North Africa documenting such events, the good people of Rabat and Casablanca (who probably don't spend much time hanging round rural market squares grooving to local musicians) would be interested to compare and contrast with their own indigenous folk traditions.

Hey-ho.  Maybe I've just been fortunate in that a number of my friends play folk music and drag me to various shindigs, back-room sessions, ceilidhs and festivals at the drop of a hat.  Maybe doubly so as I grew up just outside the town that hosts Celtic Connections, one of the largest roots music festivals in the world.

Nor, going back to Sublime Frequencies series (the Moroccan ones were a single example), would either the Moroccans or Celts have much in common with the Tuareg, or the people of the Niger Sahel, the latter appearing to live in abject poverty.

To coin a phrase from earlier in the thread, their lives maybe don't have much in common in terms of form, but they probably do in content - at least with regards to music.  They'd still use music a soundtrack to many of the moments that make life worth living - to celebrate, to commiserate and to commemorate.

[NoSleep]

They'd still use music a soundtrack to many of the moments that make life worth living - to celebrate, to commiserate and to commemorate.

It isn't all the same, if that's the point you're trying to make about supposed similarities. They could be listening to the same music as us, in that case. They don't; they are making and listening to their own music. I imagine there is a difference between the Moroccans and the UK Celts, too - folk music in the UK & Eire is something of a revival, and promoted by governments and in the schools, whereas I imagine there has been no break in the musical traditions of Morocco, they are living, progressive traditions.

[Johnny Yesno]

It isn't all the same, if that's the point you're trying to make about supposed similarities. They could be listening to the same music as us, in that case. They don't; they are making and listening to their own music. I imagine there is a difference between the Moroccans and the UK Celts, too - folk music in the UK & Eire is something of a revival, and promoted by governments and in the schools, whereas I imagine there has been no break in the musical traditions of Morocco, they are living, progressive traditions.

I think CG was saying that the end products might sound completely different but that the intentions are the same. I agree, though, that a lot of folk in this country exists because of revivalism.

What I'm wondering is why focus on folk? I wasn't being facetious earlier when I mentioned gigs and raves. Are these, and purchasing music to be consumed at our convenience, not part of our living, progressive traditions? Does the way we interact with music not tell us a great deal about where our culture is at?

What I mean is if those Moroccans went through the same economic development as we have, they'd probably end up using technology to produce very different-sounding music from what we have. However, the kinds of ideas they'd be trying to convey within that music would be very similar.

[CaledonianGonzo]

They could be listening to the same music as us, in that case. They don't; they are making and listening to their own music.

In that clip of film, absolutely, yes, they were.  That happens here too, though.  As I type, someone, somewhere is sitting entertaining their friends using some sort of western musical instrument.  If your contention is that no one here makes and listens to their own music, I'm not sure I can agree.  It may not sound alike to what goes on on the fringes of the Sahara, but the purpose is still one of entertainment and/or communal experience.

Likewise in Morocco or wherever, they're not so technologically distant that they don't switch on a Abdelaziz Stati CD or put on the radio to listen to Britney Spears and sing karaoke.  I'm not sure if you think it's all rootsy village squares sessions, and I've not seen it, but I'd be surprised if the Sublime Frequencies film paints the whole picture.  All the radios seemed to be full of French MOR when I was there.  The kids wear Bob Marley t-shirts, same as they do in Cambodia and Botswana.

I imagine there is a difference between the Moroccans and the UK Celts, too - folk music in the UK & Eire is something of a revival, and promoted by governments and in the schools, whereas I imagine there has been no break in the musical traditions of Morocco, they are living, progressive traditions.

The exotic patina of the Sublime Frequencies clip can handily camouflage a multitude of potentially misleading ifs and maybes, propelling us into the realms of speculation.  Was it something spontaneous that they just happened to film?  Was it organised especially, either for the filming or for some other occasion?  Maybe the village put it on as part of a local celebration.  Maybe the film cuts before they do a rousing Rolling Stones cover.  (A band, by the by, who're no strangers to heading out into the Atlas Mountains to see the Master Musicians of Joujouka).  I've no doubt that such hoedowns do happen spontaneously, but most of us have no way of knowing if the music featured is originals, covers, stuff from centuries ago or last from last week.  Whether the musicians were self taught or picked up their chops through government-sponsored classroom schemes. 

As it stands, you're making a judgment call on one type of music based on assumptions about the other.

Did UK folk music ever need reviving?  I'm no historian, so wouldn't really know.  Maybe rumours of its death were greatly exaggerated.  Someone somewhere must have been singing the Skye Boat Song all these years to keep it in the popular consciousness.  My mum certainly sang it to me as a baby, and she was no stranger to folk clubs in her youth.  I'm not sure music ever truly dies out - at least not memorable, easily repeated music that condenses experience into readily communicable form*.  Even in repressive regimes, it just goes underground, and there's been nothing of that sort here since the days of the Heritable Jurisdictions Act.


*I'm not sure someone like Schoenberg would be so fortunate if it weren't for 'manufactured' articles likes scores and recordings of his twelve tone compositions.

[little kev]

a tory    -  flailing   

[Dusty Gozongas]

As has been commented on, this thread has turned into a beauty. Hell, I've actually witnessed a few more likeable Fall tracks in addition to the one I previously held close to me heart ;0)

So many posters have been bang on about their 'best band', which in itself is such a narrow notion. Thanks for the 'tubes! GOOD TASTE YOUSE.

I feel compelled to elaborate on my dual choice of Gong and Crass on page one. It's too bloody ruthless a decision when pressed to narrow it down to one band or artist in particular only to find that others are equally passionate about the few that share your own top ten choices...

So then. Gong. The band with so many different lineups and their place in history as one of the first jazz/rock/psychedelic/whimsy fusion bands. Bear in mind frontman Daevid Allen's previous mysterious history as a beat poet. Don't forget Didier Malherbe's sweet passion and talent with wind instruments (heh, Malherbe appears to have been born fully formed 40 years ago in this respect!), bass players such as Mike Howlett have been known to play last week in the same manner as they did in '75. Don't forget Tim Blake, Steve Hillage, Miquette Giraudy, Gilli Smyth, Arthur Brown! and so on and so forth.

Damn. I'm off on one here looking for best choices, so the following is in note form. can't be arsed to try to explain. Either it's your lovely cup o tea or it ain't:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvYNb67B5dQ&NR=1 (flying teapot)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeFx8vk674&feature=related (master builder)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx7mfPaRNa0&feature=related (tropical fish/selene)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk1jsxcXWqE&feature=related (fohat digs holes in space - challenge any CAN lover not to like this)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10dQ9ms_aqI&feature=related (dynamite/i am your animal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT6RXJ3gh7Y (you can't kill me)

I'll throw this one in wot I just found, only to mention that Daevid Allen is on the record as stating that his use of glissando guitar was influenced by his being blown away by a certain UFO performance by Syd Barrett.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHczHlAwbcU&feature=related


_{Next week: Why I'm loiks the CRASS}

[purlieu]

I'd be very interested in reading that - I enjoy Crass, although sometimes I just get a bit too intimidated by things like Yes Sir, I Will (after the two 'fun' tracks).  For me, their use of samples and contrasting styles is what I like the most and makes their albums really enjoyable.  I like strangely structured things and the sort of cut'n'paste paste aesthetic (probably best used on the live disc of Christ: The Album).  Similar reason I love Guided By Voices.

[Dusty Gozongas]

Crass had the message, and therefore I love. Both as a comment on a current situation and a prediction of the futorz.

I'll try to be a little more coherent next week (whilst avoiding the shite they put out) ;o)

[purlieu]

Well, there's that also.  I suppose I'm just interested in what people make of their music itself, as opposed to their lyrics and ideas, as nobody ever writes about the interesting parts of how they sound, just about their communal lifestyle.

[Dusty Gozongas]

nobody ever writes about the interesting parts of how they sound, just about their communal lifestyle.

Yeah. That sometimes muddies the waters a bit. For the most part CRASS were a middle/upper class band with an educated view on shit. heh. I said "Shit"

Next week I shall make an effort.... The message and their (Penny Rimbaud's, at least) history had a few wondering whether to take them seriously.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Rimbaud


_{[edit] I'll throw this badly OCR'd transcript in here. Rimbaud was passionate about the circumstances that can bring about the death of, <ahem> an unmutual within the village... http://www.southern.com/southern/label/CRC/text/09438.html}

[Roy*Mallard]

Ah, Gong. Where do you start? First band i ever saw live - and that about 1992, waaaaaaaay after the original line-up(s) had diminished. Great gig too. I was fascinated with Gong as a kid, having got into them via my dad - i'd have been about 12 when i first heard Camembert Electrique - tho my dad, to look at, is as straight as they come. We used to send off to the Gong Appreciation Society for the GAS Tapes which were exciting and rough and muddy sounding as hell, but they were different, fun, strange, and most importantly, contained great music. There'd also be t-shirts (glow in the dark, tie-dyed Camembert logos), books, vinyl and a smattering of cd's, though this was the late 80's. Then there would be the utter joy of finding a rare album at a record fair or record shop - ''bloody hell, it's .... - got to buy it! How much???? Ah, go on then''. Pre-internet days of record searching were a bugger, but more rewarding, definitely. You'd cherish your found prize a lot more in those days.

So Gong for me were my first 'real' band love. The first thing i loved which i had never heard on the radio or tv and which my INXS and Happy Mondays-loving school friends just did not understand. It was only in my last year of school that the pot-heads in my class came to me asking for copies of ''that trippy music you listen to'' - i duly obliged and smiled embarrassingly when they told me it had done the trick.

Their records still sound very fresh to me - even more so when i don't listen to them for a while. So i think in terms of longevity, they have not dated really. Plus, you have all the spin off records to hear - and there are a hell of a lot fucking amazing Gong spin offs that you really need to hear......... Daevid Allen's solo stuff - huge chunks are amazing, you've got Planet Gong, New York Gong, Pierre Moerlens Gong, MotherGong, Acid Mothers Gong - you have Gilli Smyth's Mother album, which is superb - Dashiell Hedayat's Obsolete - Hillage solo - Tim Blake solo on and on and on it goes - mostly damn good, with the odd exception, of course, but it's a whole world - mostly exciting and plenty of fun...........so yeah, Gong for me.


   

[babyshambler]

The Who. Fact. End of. Bye!

[The Masked Unit]

I give up; is it The Smiths?

[Jemble Fred]

End of.

Neil, have we STILL not sorted out that filter that instantly emits eggy gas in the face of everyone who posts this 'sentence'? It should be sorted out. End of discussion.

[bennett]

Beastie Boys.

[Neville Chamberlain]

Cardiacs.

[Jemble Fred]

Morris Minor & The Majors.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Throbbing Gristle.

_{Reject all my previous posts, if you hadn't done already.}