The Greatest Band Ever ?

[the science eel]

Both The Fall and Can are very very very very very very very very very very very very very good, but neither are as good as Cardiacs.

Fact.

They're a bit gimmicky and a bit annoying, tho', aren't they?

[Neville Chamberlain]

I can understand (though not agree with!) the word "annoying", but how the blazes are they "gimmicky"?!?!?!?!?!?

[purlieu]

The Fall would be better if they wrote a tune once in a while.  MOAN MOAN MOAN shut up.

[the science eel]

The Fall would be better if they wrote a tune once in a while.  MOAN MOAN MOAN shut up.

They don't really write tunes, no. Fair enough. That's not what they're about. There are some MONSTER riffs, mind - and they still haven't run out.

[the science eel]

I can understand (though not agree with!) the word "annoying", but how the blazes are they "gimmicky"?!?!?!?!?!?

I would have thought that was the first adjective that would come to mind to describe the Cardiacs, to be brutally honest. All that quirky proggy stuff.

[biggytitbo]

Fleetwood Mac are underrated.

Wings. If you take their best work, and there's absolutely shit loads of it, it rivals the best collection of pop ever made my anyone.

[purlieu]

They don't really write tunes, no. Fair enough. That's not what they're about. There are some MONSTER riffs, mind - and they still haven't run out.

How can they run out of riffs when MES gets a bunch of new kids in every couple of years to write them?

I dunno.  Where's the ballads?  Where's the... song that isn't a riff for five minutes with MES ranting half-arsedly over the top.

I have an issue with The Fall.

[Jemble Fred]

Wings. If you take their best work, and there's absolutely shit loads of it, it rivals the best collection of pop ever made my anyone.

You've just inadvertently reminded me of one of the all-time watertight nominations: The Travelling Wilburies.

[CaledonianGonzo]

You've just inadvertently reminded me of one of the all-time watertight nominations: The Travelling Wilburies.

Shouldn't a great band be more - rather than less - than the sum of their parts? 

Who'd take the Wilburys  - fine albums though Vols 1 and 3 may be - over any of the solo careers of any of the various Muddys, Claytons and Otises?

[Jemble Fred]

Well personally I'd take anything over Tom Petty, his voice is like faeces poured right into my ear to me. He's definitely the weak link.

[Phil_A]

I would have thought that was the first adjective that would come to mind to describe the Cardiacs, to be brutally honest. All that quirky proggy stuff.

Pfft. If Cardiacs are a gimmick band, then surely the same goes for the Bonzos, Devo, XTC, etc? Okay, so you'd be forgiven for thinking that if you'd seen them in the early years with the costumes and the theatrical stuff, but then they dropped all that after the eighties anyway.

[Jemble Fred]

I can't think of a single decent band who couldn't be called 'gimmicky', if you wanted to. You've gotta have a gimmick, whether it's moptop haircuts or a saxophonist wearing a fez. The opposite of 'gimmicky' when it comes to rock bands, would be 'bland'.

[the science eel]

How can they run out of riffs when MES gets a bunch of new kids in every couple of years to write them?

Well, errr, yeah. There you go.

I dunno.  Where's the ballads?  Where's the... song that isn't a riff for five minutes with MES ranting half-arsedly over the top.

I have an issue with The Fall.

I'm not going to fight with you over this. I know loads of people who don't like the band. They like Pearl Jam or Bob Dylan instead. I don't envy them.

The Fall do what they do in a narrow framework and they do it exceptionally well. And there's lots of it, and people go nuts for it. It's fiesty and it's funny and it's groovy.

[the science eel]

I can't think of a single decent band who couldn't be called 'gimmicky', if you wanted to. You've gotta have a gimmick, whether it's moptop haircuts or a saxophonist wearing a fez. The opposite of 'gimmicky' when it comes to rock bands, would be 'bland'.

Yes, but there are degrees. And I'd dispute the idea that you have to have a gimmick. Look at the Housemartins. On second thoughts - don't.

[purlieu]

Well, errr, yeah. There you go.

I'm not going to fight with you over this. I know loads of people who don't like the band. They like Pearl Jam or Bob Dylan instead. I don't envy them.

The Fall do what they do in a narrow framework and they do it exceptionally well. And there's lots of it, and people go nuts for it. It's fiesty and it's funny and it's groovy.

No, I know a ridiculous number of people who like The Fall.  I just don't understand how people can think they're the greatest band ever, or even their favourite.  They have such a narrow framework that... oh, I dunno, I suppose that title to me suggests a band who've done much more really.

[Bennygaylord]

The Beatles obviously

[Marvin]

Where's the... song that isn't a riff for five minutes with MES ranting half-arsedly over the top.

Umm... the majority of Fall songs?

It's total bollocks that The Fall work within a narrow framework, unless all you've heard is a badly compiled compilation.

[the science eel]

Umm... the majority of Fall songs?

It's total bollocks that The Fall work within a narrow framework, unless all you've heard is a badly compiled compilation.

I'm a huge fan, I've got everything they ever did, and I'd say 90% of what they've put out fits a certain template. One heck of a template, tho'.

[Johnny Yesno]

I dunno.  Where's the ballads?  Where's the... song that isn't a riff for five minutes with MES ranting half-arsedly over the top.

Urgh! Is the ballad the zenith of musical endeavour, then?

I have an issue with The Fall.

And pitch perception. How does this not have a tune?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_pNmrT0r8

[Johnny Yesno]

I would have thought that was the first adjective that would come to mind to describe the Cardiacs, to be brutally honest. All that quirky proggy stuff.

Quirky yes, gimmicky no.

[Johnny Townmouse]

The Fall - Big New Prinz

Bill is Dead The Fall

The Fall with Coldcut - Telephone Thing (better quality)

The Fall - Paint Work

[purlieu]

Urgh! Is the ballad the zenith of musical endeavour, then?

No, but neither is the ranty riff-based post-punk song.  I just fail to see how a band who've never approached a ballad in a 30 year career can be the greatest band ever.  There are huge areas of music they've not touched in a time when most bands would have attempted to cover a much wider variety of stuff.  I know you've got stuff like Telephone Thing, but that was Coldcut anyway, wasn't it?

And pitch perception. How does this not have a tune?

It's not really.  It's got a repetitive riff and - oh look - MES drawling on top.  I suppose he does use about four notes instead of one, but it's not a tune.  Even Kelly 'one line repeated for a whole song' Jones writes more melodic stuff than Cruisers Creek, which is probably one of The Fall's more melodic moments.  I've not finished listening yet, but good God that riff has become annoying.  DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT PLEASE.
I used to be more into post-punk stuff and I gave The Fall quite a shot - I bought This Nation's Saving Grace and don't think I managed to get through it, so only downloaded after that.  I think I've heard ten albums in full, some of the Peel Sessions and 50,000 Fall Fans Can't Be Wrong, and after a while I realised I can probably find about six songs there which strike me as well written pieces of music. 
There's just this horrible air of detached cynicism and cool about them that fucks me off, when all I can hear is a horrible noise.  I enjoy a number of their contemporaries - lots of punk, post-punk, indie rock and noise rock bands - but I just cannot get my head around them at all.  The fact that with a constantly changing lineup and 30 odd years of music they're still doing stuff which is effectively repetitive riff + old man moaning just baffles me.

[purlieu]

Videos

I'll give you Bill Is Dead, I hadn't heard that one.  There's a ballad then!  Hurrah.  The others fall into 'repetitive track + ranting' though.  I do quite enjoy Telephone Thing, to be fair.  And Hit The North.  And Eat Yrself Fitter.  And Spoilt Victorian Child.  After that I get incredibly bored and want a song that goes somewhere, though.

[Johnny Townmouse]

I'll give you Bill Is Dead, I hadn't heard that one.  There's a ballad then!  Hurrah.  The others fall into 'repetitive track + ranting' though.  I do quite enjoy Telephone Thing, to be fair.  And Hit The North.  And Eat Yrself Fitter.  And Spoilt Victorian Child.  After that I get incredibly bored and want a song that goes somewhere, though.

You should definitely check out the Hanatarash posts. You'll love them.

[the science eel]

I enjoy a number of their contemporaries - lots of punk, post-punk, indie rock and noise rock bands - but I just cannot get my head around them at all.

Are you talking about the likes of Wire, Go4, This Heat?

The trouble with all of those bands is they lack a playfulness that the Fall have in spades. Most of their contemporaries were dour, black and white.

[purlieu]

Are you talking about the likes of Wire, Go4, This Heat?

The trouble with all of those bands is they lack a playfulness that the Fall have in spades. Most of their contemporaries were dour, black and white.

I'd say The Fall fall into 'bitter whinging bastard' category more than 'playful', but I'll admit they do have a sense of humour which is definitely needed sometimes.  Magazine, for example, went up their own arses very quickly.
I'd say Pink Flag has a sense of playfulness, but if they'd done ten Pink Flag's I'd dislike Wire.  They're actually a great example, and I find their poppy side very light hearted and enjoyable (Outdoor Miner, Map Ref, The Finest Drops).  And, importantly for me, they could mix between rawer, less melodic shouty type tracks, and tunefulness.  It's not one thing over another that I'm talking about, it's the right mixture.  Continually over sincere melodic mush turns you into Coldplay, and nobody wants that, but a mid-ground is what I'm after.  But The Fall don't really make me 'feel' anything.  I've never related to a Fall song, a Fall song has never touched me in any way whatsoever.

[the science eel]

That's fair enough.

I'll always defend them against the old cliched charges - 'grey', 'monotonous', 'industrial'. They're the most fun band I know of.

[purlieu]

You should definitely check out the Hanatarash posts. You'll love them.

The what posts?

[Johnny Yesno]

No, but neither is the ranty riff-based post-punk song.  I just fail to see how a band who've never approached a ballad in a 30 year career can be the greatest band ever.

No one proposed that a band have to do a "ranty riff-based post-punk song" before they could be considered a worthy listen. You seem to believe that doing a ballad, on the other hand, is necessary to command respect. Personally I'm glad they steered away from areas they were ill-suited to and concentrated on playing to their strengths.

It's not really.  It's got a repetitive riff and - oh look - MES drawling on top.  I suppose he does use about four notes instead of one, but it's not a tune.

Oh, I see. The singing doesn't have a tune. That's a very vocal-centric view of music you have there. *Rap fans leave thread in disgust* *Drummers leave thread in disgust* *Instrumental music fans leave thread in disgust*

Edit: Hang on, you like ambient music. I can't make sense of your hang-up on vocal melody and ballads at all.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Bill is Dead The Fall

I've never heard that before, but I guess it's a deliberate homage to Serge Gainsbourg, no?