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Gaming: First-person vs Third-person [split topic]

Started by Nik Drou, January 22, 2010, 03:21:14 PM

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rudi

Cor, I don't hink I know anyone with dyspraxia. Does it affect your daily life much? And, tyo stay on topic, does it make a big difference if you're playing first or third person?

biggytitbo

And was it really wise to become a helicopter pilot?

Consignia

Quote from: rudi on January 24, 2010, 03:04:56 PM
Cor, I don't hink I know anyone with dyspraxia. Does it affect your daily life much?

Not particularly, and nothing that can't be dealt with. I tend to be very messy and clumsy as a result, but I have no problems, say driving a car. It took me ages to learn though.

Quote
And, tyo stay on topic, does it make a big difference if you're playing first or third person?

It's difficult to say, but it does definitely feel like a difference. I think many third person games "allow" you to be bit clumsier in aiming due to the perspective, which helps me.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Another non-shooty FPS is Michigan: Report From Hell on the PS2. I've not played it myself, so I can't say how sucessful it is, but it sounds interesting and Consolevania gave it a good review (though they also praised Shadow of the Colossus, which is tripe). The viewpoint is literally that of a camera, as you play a news cameraman surrounded by Silent Hill-esque weirdness, with the HUD elements being your battery and tape meters.

mobias

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 24, 2010, 02:46:39 PM
But practically they're better too, the controls are simpler and most importantly you don't have to put up with an erratic camera, even games as incredibly polished as Uncharted still suffer from dodgy cameras, which never seem to focus quite where you want them to.

I found Uncharted 2 quite a annoying in that respect too. The constraint solving software which automatically picks the best view point for you definitely fails in a few occasions quite badly. With games like Uncharted 2 which have enormously detailed graphics there is an obvious trade off when it comes to how the virtual camera viewpoint is implemented and what you can and cannot do. If you look at GTAIV which gives the player total control over the view point at all times from all perspectives its really quite an incredible achievement. Although its telling that GTAIV has nowhere near the level of detail a game like Uncharted 2 has. In other words it can afford to do it.

I also agree the controls are more complicated in third person games however I think that once you've spent time mastering them the rewards are far greater. I find the best third person games out there are engrossingly cinematic in a way first person games can never be.

Here's quite an interesting wiki article about third person virtual camera systems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_person_(video_games)#Third_person_view_games 
 

AsparagusTrevor

I often hate the camera in third person games. Especially the ones which expect you to line up the camera yourself, so you end up with your character facing the camera. Most third person games these days seem to rely on the player lining the camera up right themselves, rather than the engine.

A third person game series that works for are the two Max Payne games, because the camera always stays behind you, making you able to effortlessly see what's in front of you at all times. It's pretty much like a FPS camera that's taken a few steps back, but it makes all the difference for efficient aiming. In fact, the Max Payne games have great flowing controls and still manage to look cinematic.

VegaLA

Agreed. I'm having problems with Prince of Persia right now because of all the jumping around. The Camera gets lost and you have to compose yourself before moving on which can be a nightmare if you are in combat.

Funny Condemned came up in this topic. A friend of mine recently shoved that and the sequel into my direction, but told me he could not get to grips with the second game. The first is doing a great job of shitting me up right now and I was not going to bother with the second but after Neil's post I may indulge after completing the first.

HappyTree

I actually much prefer the game letting me position the camera myself. I find that I do most of my turning with the camera and use the left stick for moving backwards and forwards, or making really tight turns with the right and left sticks together. Games that try to keep the camera behind the player mostly fail or are a bit laggy.

madhair60

For me it depends on the system.  I think WASD/mouse is the optimum way to play FPS', though I have encountered people who feel otherwise, and find dual analogue control to be more instinctive.  I have enjoyed many shooters on PC, but far less on console (with the exception of the still-marvellous Timesplitters 2).

Third-person games that aren't platformers aren't really enjoyable to me.  I didn't really get on with Gears of War, for example.

Baxter

Quote from: madhair60 on January 24, 2010, 09:27:41 PMFor me it depends on the system.  I think WASD/mouse is the optimum way to play FPS', though I have encountered people who feel otherwise, and find dual analogue control to be more instinctive.  I have enjoyed many shooters on PC, but far less on console (with the exception of the still-marvellous Timesplitters 2).

I quite agree with this, I can't play console a FPS without becoming very angry and have a sneaking suspicion that they must have to make the games easier to cope with the aiming system.

I was playing OpenArea against NS the other day and was surprised what a wide repertoire of movement combinations you instinctively* apply (Perhaps I was slightly more aware as I haven't played a FPS in multi player in quite some time), circle strafing, jumping and using the momentum to facilitate a turn around in mid air to check behind you and run backwards without loosing speed, I can't imagine having developed them using a console controller.

*From previous experience I don't suggest that rocket jumping is innate.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

One of the major issues of first person for me is the lack of peripheral vision. Radars on the HUD have been used for a decade now to compensate for games inabilities to provide that level of immersion. I'm really quite sniffy at this 3D thing as I think it's an overhyped load of bollocks, but if they were able via widescreens and surround sound to create a virtual sense of peripheral vision and a control system that was as intuitive of looking left and right in real life, I think the entire genre could be reborn.

AsparagusTrevor


Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


Depressed Beyond Tables

I'm still waiting for the first First Person Soccer game. A proper game where the player doesn't just run for the ball when you're not controlling and also a button for jumping. Revolutionary I know.

This is not there yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z94gPrJOSWQ&feature=related

Slaaaaabs

That just looks like a crappy version of the Be A Pro/Legend modes from FIFA/PES. There is a similar western developed MMO called Football Superstars which is the same.

First person football just isn't feasible until complete immersion is possible, positional awareness is key and while you could achieve something with audio cues it would still be awfully clumsy.

turnstyle

I seem to remember that Super Soccer on the Snes came close to this, as the viewing angle was always 'looking forwards' towards the opponents goal.

Bit crap though.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Yes that doesn't sound like it would be much fun at all. Although that's what I thought about Mirror's Edge, and apparently that works.

This seems like it could lead to some interesting developments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
I think there was an on-rails arcade light gun game a few years back which did something similar.

chand

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on January 27, 2010, 02:15:29 PM
Yes that doesn't sound like it would be much fun at all. Although that's what I thought about Mirror's Edge, and apparently that works.

Mirror's Edge would have been rubbish if you had to control a football while you were running.

In real football you don't need to constantly look down at your feet to see where the ball is because you're getting physical feedback. It wouldn't work in a game unless all dribbling was so automated that you wouldn't see the ball when you have it, which would be bobbins anyway. Plus in real life you can glance down and still have a wide field of vision which you can't in first-person games.

Depressed Beyond Tables

Quote from: Slaaaaabs on January 27, 2010, 01:29:00 PM
First person football just isn't feasible until complete immersion is possible, positional awareness is key and while you could achieve something with audio cues it would still be awfully clumsy.

I don't think so. With the current console controls (2 sticks in particular) there's more than the ability to run any direction whist moving the head 270 degrees or so. The controls would ideally be super sensitive so as to have maximum awareness. What would help is if a different aspect ratio was used so as to give a greater peripheral view. Although this is also a problem for current FPSs, i feel.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I guess you could have a marker to show where the ball is, but then that would undermine the realism, which would presumably be the point of making it first person.

I once played a plug in for Quake that gave it a full 360 degree view, so that the edges of the screen showed what was behind you. It was decidedly weird but, now that larger widescreen displays are more common, I wonder if the idea could have legs.

Depressed Beyond Tables

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on January 27, 2010, 03:32:30 PM
I guess you could have a marker to show where the ball is, but then that would undermine the realism, which would presumably be the point of making it first person.


Plenty of games use devices like that. Aimers on handguns in GTAIV for example. They don't really take too much away from the realism. Nobody's expecting to get all muddy. Although Wii football boots now there's an idea...

Actually just two sensors that clip onto your shoes would do.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


glitch

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on January 24, 2010, 10:50:21 PM
Peripheral vision? Something like this?:



Pffft, they were doing that in the Nineties. You used to be able to network 3 computers running Doom and use two of the monitors as your left and right view. Although annoyingly I can't seem to find anything about it on-line.

Depressed Beyond Tables

Quote from: glitch on January 27, 2010, 05:16:29 PM
Pffft, they were doing that in the Nineties. You used to be able to network 3 computers running Doom and use two of the monitors as your left and right view. Although annoyingly I can't seem to find anything about it on-line.

That would kick ass.

wheatgod


Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


papalaz4444244

Quote from: glitch on January 27, 2010, 05:16:29 PM
Pffft, they were doing that in the Nineties. You used to be able to network 3 computers running Doom and use two of the monitors as your left and right view. Although annoyingly I can't seem to find anything about it on-line.
You can multi screen in Forza 3 too

Not my house, sadly...:(

NoSleep

Quote from: Baxter on January 24, 2010, 09:48:20 PM
I quite agree with this, I can't play console a FPS without becoming very angry and have a sneaking suspicion that they must have to make the games easier to cope with the aiming system.

I was playing OpenArea against NS the other day and was surprised what a wide repertoire of movement combinations you instinctively* apply (Perhaps I was slightly more aware as I haven't played a FPS in multi player in quite some time), circle strafing, jumping and using the momentum to facilitate a turn around in mid air to check behind you and run backwards without loosing speed, I can't imagine having developed them using a console controller.

*From previous experience I don't suggest that rocket jumping is innate.

I have played a few FPS's on consoles; on the Playstation 2: Red Faction I & II, Timesplitters I,II & III, Deus Ex, Unreal Tournament, Quake III, Half Life; on the Playstation: Quake II and Alien Resurrection; On the Dreamcast Quake III (online with 56k dialup) & Fur Fighters; on the SNES, GBA, DS & Atari Jaguar: Doom. I think they all apply auto-aim, except perhaps Quake III on the Dreamcast, as it was also possible to play with a proprietary keyboard & mouse. Red Faction II helped out on the 180 degree turns by making it a button press. But the difference in control between a gamepad and a computer setup was made obvious to me when I recently managed to get Doom working on my computer and was able to use WASD + Mouse to control movement; I could turn the action up to "Nightmare!!!" level and play the game reasonably well.

I don't think I would have played FPS's on consoles as well I did without having gained experience playing Quake III on a computer to learn the best moves (like the jumping and 180 degree turn in mid air that Baxter mentioned), not that I'm a hell of a player: still, I've recently joined a team, playing a Q3 mod called Urban Terror, which I urge everyone to check out, as it is a)free & b)well-supported and populated daily by 1000s of players on over a thousand servers (just checked: tonight, right now, there are around 3000 players online; not bad for a game that's 10 years old). FPS's come alive online; aside from the relentless slaughter, you get a nice feeling when you realise that you and a bunch of random strangers are actually pulling together to try to be the winning team with nothing but a set of radio commands to communicate via key-presses. Now I've actually joined an UrT team we've equipped with Mumble for live voice communication in-game, which is pretty fucking awesome. Some of the people in the team are players I'd previously noticed during random online play that had that team spirit whilst others around us were just playing for themselves; that's the thing - you're recognising human traits within the game when you're online, both good and bad (there are hackers and cheats, spawn-killers and twats that pound noobs until they give up playing the game; but there are some well-run servers out there with admin that are constantly surveying for the scumbags). And the game, or rather the participants, can make me (really) laugh out loud whilst playing too.

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 24, 2010, 09:52:02 PM
One of the major issues of first person for me is the lack of peripheral vision.

I don't miss it so much with a set of headphones and stereo sound to help me. Plus, you need to check your character's grunts to tell you if you're receiving hits from behind or the side. Another freebie FPS, Assault Cube, features arrows at the edges of your vision to indicate from what direction you're receiving hits.

Recently, I've realised that the field of view in Quake III & Urban Terror is best viewed with your monitor right up in your face as it does provide peripheral vision if you check the perspective toward the edge of the screen. My shooting and movement become much better when I bother to do this, and the sense of immersion increases. Default FOV is 90 degrees, but you can push this out to 110 in UrT and even further in Q3; some players have different FOVs toggled on their keyboards to make use of the best one in a given situation.

All that said, I quite like a bit of Metal Gear Solid & Tenchu, too. Not forgetting Shenmue.

glitch

Quote from: NoSleep on January 28, 2010, 01:38:14 AMI have played a few FPS's on consoles; on the Playstation 2: Red Faction I & II, Timesplitters I,II & III, Deus Ex, Unreal Tournament, Quake III, Half Life; on the Playstation: Quake II and Alien Resurrection; On the Dreamcast Quake III (online with 56k dialup) & Fur Fighters; on the SNES, GBA, DS & Atari Jaguar: Doom. I think they all apply auto-aim, except perhaps Quake III on the Dreamcast, as it was also possible to play with a proprietary keyboard & mouse. Red Faction II helped out on the 180 degree turns by making it a button press.

Depending on how much they had to hack the Quake engine-based games to get them working on the consoles, there was no doubt auto-aiming - the PC versions all had it, primarily for singleplayer as it was a server-wide command that pretty much everyone disabled in their server config.

There's definitely auto-aiming in COD:MW2 - the pad gets "sticky" near people and it's really apparent when someone in the medium-distance runs through your crosshairs.

Interesting stuff about the FOV - I used to use FOV120 when playing competitively and knew FFA DM types who'd crank it up even higher.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

One game that did have a really awful camera was Metal Gear Solid 3. Perhaps more than any other genre, the stealth 'em up absolutely relies on awareness of the surroundings, and yet you spent half your time in this limited to seeing about five feet in any direction.