Playstation Move [split topic]

[madhair60]

SNG, what do you want from your beat-em-ups?  I'm curious what you would consider the "alternative" to Tatscom.  I've have said, say, Tekken, Virtua Fighter - the less s*****c, more considered efforts.

Personally my tastes fall on the side of OH WOW YOU CAN PLAY AS FUCKING MEGA MAN AND ZERO I'M IN, I'M IN

[The Boston Crab]

Now it's my turn to go through the games you mentioned and shake my head in disbelief but as you say:

I think we possibly like different things in our beat-em-ups COMPUTER GAMES.

That's probably the definitive statement, really. Anyway, like em or not, the majority of 'top' games on the Wii are sit-down affairs. That was my one and only point, originally.

Obviously, though, I can't quite stop myself so I will say that Mario Kart, again, is a game that only gives the real rewards once you get past a certain skill level. Before that it's just Madcap Benny's House O' Freneticos, i.e. it's no fun with mates who don't play it well enough. Burnout, on the other hand, burns brightly for about twenty minutes and then never gives you a reason to get it out the box again IMHO! I enjoyed the first Motorstorm but it didn't do enough to make me want to play the sequel. I'll give it a go when I hit up my one and only PS3 ho.

[The Boston Crab]

SNG, what do you want from your beat-em-ups?  I'm curious what you would consider the "alternative" to Tatscom.  I've have said, say, Tekken, Virtua Fighter - the less s*****c, more considered efforts.

Personally my tastes fall on the side of OH WOW YOU CAN PLAY AS FUCKING MEGA MAN AND ZERO I'M IN, I'M IN

Well, I think that for all its 'HERRO WE SO FRICKIN ZANY Y'ALL PANTY SNIFF OK!' it's a pretty deep mechanic.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Mario Kart Wii is one of the worst games I've ever played. I've got no problem with broadening the market, but basing an entire game on the observation that clueless parents often try to steer by tilting the controller is an entirely misbegotten idea.

[The Boston Crab]

Real MK Bros just use the analogue stick.

I used to like you a lot but...it could be my annoyance at missing out on this gig tonight...but...and I don't mean this at all...but if I saw you in the street with your luminous head, I'd have at it with a Wiimote.

[jutl]

Well, I didn't mention MKWii, cos I was trying to avoid mentioning Ninty stuff too much. But that's shite too, and not a patch even on Burnout Paradise. Motorstorm and its sequel shit on both MKWii and Excite Truck from a spectacular height.

As an owner of all five of those games I have to say that I disagree fair strongly. As it is completely pointless to argue taste in this way, I thought we'd have a sales chart instead. Easy availability of second hand games on the high street means that first sales are a better indicator of games' long-term appeal than they used to be, so let's see what we find...



   
   
   
   
   
   

Games	Sales
Spoiler alert Motorstorm [close]	Spoiler alert 3.51 million [close]
Spoiler alert Burnout Paradise [close]	Spoiler alert 2.5 million [close]
Spoiler alert Excite Truck [close]	Spoiler alert 0.89 million [close]
Spoiler alert Motorstorm 2 [close]	Spoiler alert 0.87 million [close]
Spoiler alert Mario Kart Wii [close]	Spoiler alert 21.45 million [close]

Now of course you can always argue that your taste is infinitely more refined than that of all those other game-buying cunts, but I'm always a little wary of arguments like that, particularly with an accessible clutch of games like these...

[Still Not George]

Firstly, regardless of bullshit about the second hand market, sales remain the most retarded method imaginable of trying to say anything useful at all about games. Apart from noting that once again, EATING BABIES WHILE DRINKING SAKE AND LAUGHING. I'll be nice and not even mention Celine Dion this time.

Secondly, you do realise that a whole metric shitload of those will be bundle sales, right? On the console that sold an unspeakable number of units to, well let's be honest, people who don't actually play games?

[mobias]

Just to change the subject slightly. I'm a huge Motorstorm fan and I've just heard that its quite possible that Motorstorm 3 is going to be announced in the next day or two at the Games Developers Conference which is happening as we speak over in San Francisco. 

Anyway carry on.....

[Still Not George]

Just to change the subject slightly. I'm a huge Motorstorm fan and I've just heard that its quite possible that Motorstorm 3 is going to be announced in the next day or two at the Games Developers Conference which is happening as we speak over in San Francisco. 

*grumbles loudly about not being there due to lack of cash*

[chand]

Secondly, you do realise that a whole metric shitload of those will be bundle sales, right? On the console that sold an unspeakable number of units to, well let's be honest, people who don't actually play games?

Yeah, bundle sales make a big difference, hence the superior Motorstorm sequel selling so much fewer than the original, which was regularly bundled with consoles in the first year or so of the PS3's existence.

As an owner of all five of those games I have to say that I disagree fair strongly. As it is completely pointless to argue taste in this way, I thought we'd have a sales chart instead. Easy availability of second hand games on the high street means that first sales are a better indicator of games' long-term appeal than they used to be, so let's see what we find...



   
   
   
   
   
   

Games	Sales
Spoiler alert Motorstorm [close]	Spoiler alert 3.51 million [close]
Spoiler alert Burnout Paradise [close]	Spoiler alert 2.5 million [close]
Spoiler alert Excite Truck [close]	Spoiler alert 0.89 million [close]
Spoiler alert Motorstorm 2 [close]	Spoiler alert 0.87 million [close]
Spoiler alert Mario Kart Wii [close]	Spoiler alert 21.45 million [close]

Now of course you can always argue that your taste is infinitely more refined than that of all those other game-buying cunts, but I'm always a little wary of arguments like that, particularly with an accessible clutch of games like these...

I don't really understand your point here, SNG isn't saying that the games he likes are more popular than Mario Kart Wii.

[Lee Van Cleef]

It looks familiar, but I can't quite place it....

[Slaaaaabs]

[jutl]

Firstly, regardless of bullshit about the second hand market

It's not bullshit. Games that sell well but have little long term appeal glut the second hand market and cannibalize first hand sales. This applies to pack-ins too.

sales remain the most retarded method imaginable of trying to say anything useful at all about games.

Leaving aside the obvious hyperbole, do you think that actual popularity with people is irrelevant?

Secondly, you do realise that a whole metric shitload of those will be bundle sales, right?

As I say, nothing is stopping those games getting sold back to games shops and blocking new first sales.

On the console that sold an unspeakable number of units to, well let's be honest, people who don't actually play games?

That's clearly untrue. There are people in this thread who own a Wii and 'play games'. I understand that you personally do not like the console or the vast majority of the games on it, and that's fine. There are people (like me for example) who like all of the games you cited, and the Wii ones certainly not last in the list. When you state your opinion like fact it will tend to get challenged.

I don't really understand your point here, SNG isn't saying that the games he likes are more popular than Mario Kart Wii.

My point is that there's taste and then there's objective fact. Sales do not equal quality necessarily, but there are no better objective metrics unfortunately.

[Still Not George]

It's not bullshit. Games that sell well but have little long term appeal glut the second hand market and cannibalize first hand sales. This applies to pack-ins too.

Absolutely not with regards to bundled games. And you know that.

Also, the Wii is notable in having a markedly lower second hand market factor, since such a relatively huge proportion of its install base consists of non-gamers who will potentially never go near a game store in their lives (having probably ordered the thing from Amazon in the first place).

Leaving aside the obvious hyperbole, do you think that actual popularity with people is irrelevant?

I think comparing sales is utterly irrelevant. But then you carefully weren't asking that.

That's clearly untrue. There are people in this thread who own a Wii and 'play games'

WHICH AGAIN IS NOT WHAT I FUCKING SAID. You're getting as bad as titbo for responding to the post you wish you were responding to rather than the actual fucking words.
I said it sold an ungodly amount of units to people who don't really play games. I didn't say that "Wii owners don't play games". Those are very clearly different propositions. For starters, I own one, and I'm pretty bloody sure I play games.

I understand that you personally do not like the console or the vast majority of the games on it, and that's fine.

And in that you're again wrong. I just find the majority of them either mediocre or good but deeply overrated. There are some shining exceptions, of course - but don't let my having repeatedly mentioned them ruin your crusade, eh?

There are people (like me for example) who like all of the games you cited, and the Wii ones certainly not last in the list. When you state your opinion like fact it will tend to get challenged.

I've not stated my opinion as anything other than opinion! You do this occasionally, and you're not alone, but here's a quick reminder for you:

Unless a post on the Internet states "This is a FACT!" it's probably someone's opinion.

"Stating your opinion as fact" is as useful a term on the toneless, contextless Internet as "smug". It's just a perjorative, a meaningless piece of mud to fling at someone. I would say you're better than that, but quite frankly having had endless crap from you over the last 12 months I'm not at all sure of that any more.

[chand]

My point is that there's taste and then there's objective fact. Sales do not equal quality necessarily, but there are no better objective metrics unfortunately.

But we were talking about taste and opinion. The sales figures were irrelevant to the discussion, everyone knows Mario Kart Wii sold a shitload. You're trying to impose objectivity on a subjective discussion.

[Garfield And Friends]

That's clearly untrue. There are people in this thread who own a Wii and 'play games'.

That's an answer to something that was obviously not implied.

[jutl]

Absolutely not with regards to bundled games. And you know that.

Erm... no, I'm not deliberately lying about this. I've resold bundled games before, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Also, the Wii is notable in having a markedly lower second hand market factor, since such a relatively huge proportion of its install base consists of non-gamers who will potentially never go near a game store in their lives (having probably ordered the thing from Amazon in the first place).

I don't have any figures on that. I can say that the Wii second hand section in every Game I've ever been in looks comparably large to the 360 and PS3 sections. I'd be interested to know where you got that info.

I think comparing sales is utterly irrelevant. But then you carefully weren't asking that.
WHICH AGAIN IS NOT WHAT I FUCKING SAID. You're getting as bad as titbo for responding to the post you wish you were responding to rather than the actual fucking words.
I said it sold an ungodly amount of units to people who don't really play games. I didn't say that "Wii owners don't play games". Those are very clearly different propositions. For starters, I own one, and I'm pretty bloody sure I play games.

That's an answer to something that was obviously not implied.

No, fair enough, I did take that as being a more extensive damning than it actually was.

And in that you're again wrong. I just find the majority of them either mediocre or good but deeply overrated. There are some shining exceptions, of course - but don't let my having repeatedly mentioned them ruin your crusade, eh?

Apart from No More Heroes I am struggling to think of any other Wii game that you have been anything other than grudgingly pleasant about. I'm happy to hear your list of SNG-beloved Wii games though, if you can be bothered (no reason why you should of course, you seem quite angry).

I've not stated my opinion as anything other than opinion! You do this occasionally, and you're not alone, but here's a quick reminder for you:

Unless a post on the Internet states "This is a FACT!" it's probably someone's opinion.

"Stating your opinion as fact" is as useful a term on the toneless, contextless Internet as "smug". It's just a perjorative, a meaningless piece of mud to fling at someone. I would say you're better than that, but quite frankly having had endless crap from you over the last 12 months I'm not at all sure of that any more.

I think it's really just a matter of politeness. If I come in here and say: "PS3 shits on 360 from a great height" or "Excite Truck shits on Motorstorm from a great height" I'd expect to get challenged, as I'm not qualifying that at all. It prompts the opposite, blunt opinion from those who disagree, and I think we can all agree that's unhelpful. Of course it's an opinion, but it's just socially pleasant to qualify it as such, in order to avoid getting people's backs up. You know what I mean here, I think, because you do get annoyed by other people's unqualified opinions.

But we were talking about taste and opinion. The sales figures were irrelevant to the discussion, everyone knows Mario Kart Wii sold a shitload. You're trying to impose objectivity on a subjective discussion.

I do think that the relationship between sales and quality is interesting, and the relationship between subjective taste and perceived quality less so. I also find it oddly solipsistic when people state strong negative opinions about popular things without any attempt to account for that judgement (unless it's obviously a 'performance' of the "Bruce Forsyth should have his eyelids razored off, frozen into projectiles then fired into his tortoise-scrotum throat with powerful elastic" kind). It's interesting when people reject what is almost universally accepted, but without any kind of qualification it can just look offensive and contrarian. Anyway, it seems to be my problem not SNG's. so I'll stop now

[chand]

I do think that the relationship between sales and quality is interesting, and the relationship between subjective taste and perceived quality less so. I also find it oddly solipsistic when people state strong negative opinions about popular things without any attempt to account for that judgement (unless it's obviously a 'performance' of the "Bruce Forsyth should have his eyelids razored off, frozen into projectiles then fired into his tortoise-scrotum throat with powerful elastic" kind). It's interesting when people reject what is almost universally accepted, but without any kind of qualification it can just look offensive and contrarian. Anyway, it seems to be my problem not SNG's. so I'll stop now

It's not interesting though, pulling out the fucking sales figures in an argument is insufferably tedious. Sales figures are uninteresting because if you assume they bear a relation to quality then there's no discussion to be had, we may as well all pack up and go home admitting that Candle In The Wind 97 is the best song ever written. In reality there are so many factors besides quality affecting sales figures that it makes their introduction to a discussion problematic.

[Still Not George]

Erm... no, I'm not deliberately lying about this. I've resold bundled games before, so I'm not sure what you mean.

What I mean is that the effect of resales on bundled games is virtually nil, because as long as the core system continues to sell like hotcakes, the primary sales channel remains open. The effect on other games is more pronounced, of course.

I don't have any figures on that. I can say that the Wii second hand section in every Game I've ever been in looks comparably large to the 360 and PS3 sections. I'd be interested to know where you got that info.

Pulled out of my ass for the most part, but the fact that the Wii 2nd hand bin looks comparably large (it always looks notably smaller to me) to two consoles with fewer installs between them should give you a clue.

Apart from No More Heroes I am struggling to think of any other Wii game that you have been anything other than grudgingly pleasant about. I'm happy to hear your list of SNG-beloved Wii games though, if you can be bothered (no reason why you should of course, you seem quite angry).

First the "stating opinion as fact", then the "you seem quite angry" canard... oh, jutl dude, I'm one Hitler away from losing all respect for you.

I think it's really just a matter of politeness. If I come in here and say: "PS3 shits on 360 from a great height" or "Excite Truck shits on Motorstorm from a great height" I'd expect to get challenged, as I'm not qualifying that at all. It prompts the opposite, blunt opinion from those who disagree, and I think we can all agree that's unhelpful. Of course it's an opinion, but it's just socially pleasant to qualify it as such, in order to avoid getting people's backs up. You know what I mean here, I think, because you do get annoyed by other people's unqualified opinions.

I get annoyed by people stabbing at reality without qualifications, not other people's opinions. Last time I pulled someone up for the whole "opinion as fact" thing I was pulled up for it in turn and rightly so. If someone presents an obvious opinion - such as "Motorstorm 2 shits on Excite Truck from a great height, then turns and shits all over Mario Kart Wii for good measure" - that's clearly not being stated as fact. Because if it was, the end of every fucking sentence ever posted on the Internet would be "in my opinion". The fact that there's more than one acronym for it speaks volumes for the amount of people that insist on constant reinforcement of which bits are people's opinions and which aren't, when it would be so much easier (not to mention quicker) to just mentally insert an "IMO" at the end of every paragraph that doesn't include sources. Try it sometime, you'll be surprised how much less aggravating it makes a lot of posters, me no doubt included.

That said, it also makes posters who just link to some old crap written on a blog as if it was evidence even more annoying.

[jutl]

It's not interesting though, pulling out the fucking sales figures in an argument is insufferably tedious. Sales figures are uninteresting because if you assume they bear a relation to quality then there's no discussion to be had, we may as well all pack up and go home admitting that Candle In The Wind 97 is the best song ever written. In reality there are so many factors besides quality affecting sales figures that it makes their introduction to a discussion problematic.

Sales figures have a strong correlation to one definition of quality, and it's an important one because it largely dictates which games get published. The more subjective forms of 'quality' are interesting when discussed, I'd say, and far less interesting when stated flatly.

[chand]

Sales figures have a strong correlation to one definition of quality, and it's an important one because it largely dictates which games get published.

But they're so massively influenced by other factors. Marketing, bundling, price, competition, reviews, timing of release and so on. The PS3 and Xbox 360 are more saturated with driving games than the Wii is, so Motorstorm titles have to compete with GT5 Prologue (4.6m copies), four Need For Speed titles, GRID, Burnout Paradise, two Colin McRae DiRT games, Juiced, Ridge Racer, Midnight Club, even Wipeout HD. Then you have to factor in the user base for the PS3 versus that for the Wii; if Mario Kart had come out as a non-bundled PS3 exclusive rather than on the Wii it would have sold a fraction as many despite being the same game.

The more subjective forms of 'quality' are interesting when discussed, I'd say, and far less interesting when stated flatly.

What's the difference? Even a flat statement can be discussed.

Incidentally, the amusing part was that in disagreeing with SNG that "Burnout Paradise. Motorstorm and its sequel shit on both MKWii and Excite Truck from a spectacular height", you posted figures which show that Burnout Paradise and Motorstorm are better than Excite Truck because they sold more. Now, I disagree with some aspects of what SNG says; I love both Motorstorm games but didn't like Burnout Paradise because while it sounded a great idea I didn't really like all the 90-degree turns and the constant checking of the map to figure out the route.

Anyway, how does this sales/quality correlation work in the details? Does this mean that Mario Kart Wii is 24 times better than Excite Truck?

[jutl]

But they're so massively influenced by other factors. Marketing, bundling, price, competition, reviews, timing of release and so on. The PS3 and Xbox 360 are more saturated with driving games than the Wii is, so Motorstorm titles have to compete with GT5 Prologue (4.6m copies), four Need For Speed titles, GRID, Burnout Paradise, two Colin McRae DiRT games, Juiced, Ridge Racer, Midnight Club, even Wipeout HD. Then you have to factor in the user base for the PS3 versus that for the Wii; if Mario Kart had come out as a non-bundled PS3 exclusive rather than on the Wii it would have sold a fraction as many despite being the same game.

Yes, a lot of those are factors it is true. Bundling is a little misleading in this case as there never was an official Mario Kart Wii bundle, in the same way as there was an official PS3 Motorstorm bundle. At one time you couldn't buy a PS3 without Motorstorm. That was never true for the Wii and Mario Kart Wii. Anyone who bought a Wii with Mario Kart Wii did so in preference over the simpler and cheaper Wii Sports Official Bundle, and instead of any of the hundreds of other unofficial bundles offered by retailers. 

Incidentally, the amusing part was that in disagreeing with SNG that "Burnout Paradise. Motorstorm and its sequel shit on both MKWii and Excite Truck from a spectacular height", you posted figures which show that Burnout Paradise and Motorstorm are better than Excite Truck because they sold more. Now, I disagree with some aspects of what SNG says; I love both Motorstorm games but didn't like Burnout Paradise because while it sounded a great idea I didn't really like all the 90-degree turns and the constant checking of the map to figure out the route.

Anyway, how does this sales/quality correlation work in the details? Does this mean that Mario Kart Wii is 24 times better than Excite Truck?

It means that 24 times as many people have played it, and that it's a financial success in a way that Excite Truck was not. It also provides a background of fact against which to analyse statements about what exactly shits on what from a great height. For me, and I can see that I'm in the minority here, blank statements that imply overwhelming public taste is somehow incorrect need a little support.

[chand]

For me, and I can see that I'm in the minority here, blank statements that imply overwhelming public taste is somehow incorrect need a little support.

And your implication that public taste is correct needs no support?

[jutl]

And your implication that public taste is correct needs no support?

My implication is only that - for works intended to be enjoyed by people - wide enjoyment by people has to be a meaningful metric.

[chand]

My implication is only that - for works intended to be enjoyed by people - wide enjoyment by people has to be a meaningful metric.

You only know that they bought it, not that they enjoyed it.

[glitch]

Metroid Prime Trilogy, Zelda, SMG, Mario Kart, PES, RE4, New Super Mario Bros, Excite Truck, Okami, Smash Bros Brawl, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, Zack & Wiki, No More Heroes, De Blob, Paper Mario, Lost Winds...

Almost all of those would be must-buys on any other system.

Brawl? Really? It's a dire, dire game. Powerstone 2 did that style of gaming much better and without having the issues Brawl has - a lot of which come from the poor control pads.

Mario Kart Wii is a terrible port of the game ruined by the rubberbanding and weighted power ups.

Remove the Nintendo franchise elements from the above games and people would see that they're really not that special.

[jutl]

You only know that they bought it, not that they enjoyed it.

...which leads us back to my original point about second hand sales, and their ability to show which games get old quickly and get sold on. Mario Kart Wii is not a regular on the second hand shelves and its second hand price stays high.

[jutl]

Mario Kart Wii is a terrible port of the game ruined by the rubberbanding and weighted power ups.

Port?

edit: Sorry - I'm being stupid - you mean version. Well it's my favourite of the Mario Karts, having played all of them. None of them were what you'd call scrupulously fair games, but they weight the gameplay to ensure that everyone has a possibility of winning even up to the last minute. It's one of the reasons that it's so accessible, I reckon.

Further edit to add: ...and I agree entirely about Brawl (and every Smash Bros game). I have, though, watched other people playing it and getting a huge buzz from it. I tend to think it's my problem that I can't, given its huge popularity.

[chand]

its second hand price stays high.

Not really a fair comparison with PS3 and 360 games which get automatic price cuts after they sell a certain number of copies; you can buy a new copy of Motorstorm Pacific Rift for less than £20 so it impacts the second hand price regardless. Uncharted 2 is still selling second-hand for a price comparable with that of Mario Kart, but once the Platinum edition comes out the second-hand value will tumble to to the tenner you can get the original for.

[jutl]

Not really a fair comparison with PS3 and 360 games which get automatic price cuts after they sell a certain number of copies; you can buy a new copy of Motorstorm Pacific Rift for less than £20 so it impacts the second hand price regardless. Uncharted 2 is still selling second-hand for a price comparable with that of Mario Kart, but once the Platinum edition comes out the second-hand value will tumble to to the tenner you can get the original for.

I'm not comparing it with PS3 or 360 games. You asked how I knew people were enjoying it, and I offered that as evidence. What happens with PS3 and 360 games isn't really relevant to that, surely?